The Sound Of One Hand Clapping

[steve_bank]

In Zen a new student is given a puzzle to meditate on and resolve called a koan.

The story I remember from the book. A student is asked 'what is the sound of one hand clapping' by his teacher and told to come back with an answer. He returns weeks later. sits down, and starts to ramble on with a logical description. The teacher whacks him and the head and says try again. He returns, sits down, and waves one hand back and forth. An acceptable answer.

Some truths can not ne realized through western style logic and analysis, which is what to me is the difference between eastern and western thought. Linear logic rules in the west. The goal in eastern traditions is attainment of psycho-physical states mot reachable by logical reasoning. I read Hegel's book way back. As I recall he said philosophy has end state goals, not just logic and debate of meaning.

 

[Speakpigeon]

clap
1. To strike the palms of the hands together with a sudden explosive sound, as in applauding.
2. To come together suddenly with a sharp sound.

So, me, I would say you get to the same conclusion from logic.

And it seems rather reassuring to me that there are no illogical phenomena in nature.

All we have on occasions, beside people getting their facts wrong, are people making illogical statements.

So I guess one lesson here is that it's a good idea to try sometimes to empirically verify the conclusions you reach by logic alone, however imperfectly that verification will usually be.

But the real lesson is I think that you should come to term with the fact that you won't be able to show nature falsifying logic.
EB

 

[untermensche]

There is no truth to be found in such nonsense.

This is human delusion at it's finest.

 

[braces_for_impact]

That's just word games. May as well show a married bachelor. Or, actually, clap with one had as I do. It can be done, and it's certainly a more accurate answer than waving your hand around, which is merely, if you'll excuse the pun, hand waving.

 

[whollygoats]

I would think that 'one hand clapping' would be one hand against some other, non-hand, object. The first object obviously at hand when the question was posed would be the teacher's face.

Golf-clap, or exuberant enthusiastic clap?

 

[Speakpigeon]

That's just word games. May as well show a married bachelor. Or, actually, clap with one had as I do. It can be done, and it's certainly a more accurate answer than waving your hand around, which is merely, if you'll excuse the pun, hand waving.

clap
1. To strike the palms of the hands together with a sudden explosive sound, as in applauding.
2. To come together suddenly with a sharp sound

To say as you do that "it can be done" definitely is word games.

Bravo, I clap "with both hands" at the solo performance. Hey, you hear that? No sound!
EB

 

[abaddon]

The point of the koan is to baffle the mind so that it's not relied on for "truth". The question in itself isn't important. The sting of the stick on the skin is an answer being given to the student, to help wake him from thinking his thoughts into experience. There's no special state or answer being looked for here, it's as immediate as the tip of one's nose. You can't put immediacy into words. There's no clearer truth in the universe than wordless experience. The student is being asked to be himself rather than offer a canned, conventional response.

 

[Random Person]

In Zen a new student is given a puzzle to meditate on and resolve called a koan.

The story I remember from the book. A student is asked 'what is the sound of one hand clapping' by his teacher and told to come back with an answer. He returns weeks later. sits down, and starts to ramble on with a logical description. The teacher whacks him and the head and says try again. He returns, sits down, and waves one hand back and forth. An acceptable answer.

Some truths can not ne realized through western style logic and analysis, which is what to me is the difference between eastern and western thought. Linear logic rules in the west. The goal in eastern traditions is attainment of psycho-physical states mot reachable by logical reasoning. I read Hegel's book way back. As I recall he said philosophy has end state goals, not just logic and debate of meaning.

I heard that koan a long time ago but I have never heard a satisfying answer until now. Apparently I was over thinking it.

 

[Speakpigeon]

I would think that 'one hand clapping' would be one hand against some other, non-hand, object

Well, you have a point here. If you're clapping with your two hands then each hand is definitely clapping, it doesn't matter that it is effectively clapping against the other one. So, the sound of one hand clapping is the same as that of two hands clapping.

At least as long as the question is "what is the sound of one hand clapping" and not "what is the sound of only one hand clapping".
EB

 

[Speakpigeon]

The point of the koan is to baffle the mind so that it's not relied on for "truth". The question in itself isn't important. The sting of the stick on the skin is an answer being given to the student, to help wake him from thinking his thoughts into experience. There's no special state or answer being looked for here, it's as immediate as the tip of one's nose. You can't put immediacy into words. There's no clearer truth in the universe than wordless experience. The student is being asked to be himself rather than offer a canned, conventional response.

Well, then we're doing a lot of that koan thing around here. Asking questions that baffle the mind, and yet aren't important in themselves, and we certainly do our best to deliver the equivalent of a sting to the mediocre student. And no answer will ever be good enough. We're all Zen teachers here.
EB

 

[bilby]

 

[DBT]

Perhaps the Sound of One Hand Clapping as a metaphor for a Universe without conscious entities, a Universe without the presence of someone or something that is aware of the existence of their Universe....

 

[fromderinside]

How is that possible in a Chomsky world?

Harking back to bilby ....... OMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMEEEEOOOOOWWWWWWWWW

Uh. That's a Philosophical Canasta I believe. See Hoyle's "Two Lips Flapping"

 

[steve_bank]

What is the sound of one jaw flapping?

 

[Keith&Co.]

What is the sound of one jaw flapping?

...an election year...

 

[steve_bank]

What is the sound of one jaw flapping?

...an election year...

I think I am understanding some of it. Part of the what we call Eastern traditions is simply realizing the futility of society which appears to operate soley on stimulus response, and attaching to the chaos is what screwsd us up. The rest is how to exist in chaos.

 

[Cheerful Charlie]

The whole idea of such koans is to learn to stop thinking and to just be and experience the Universe. This will in some people, cause them to have altered states of consciousness, oceanic feelings, Maslow's peak experiences and such. The lesson in the end is that the Universe is not necessarily as you think it is by everyday experience. A way of attaining Socratic enlightened ignorance. The end goal is an experience, not an answer.

Grasshopper, when you can snatch this bong out of my hand.....