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The System

Do not let the perfect become the enemy of the good. Comparing the Ds and Rs in today's America is absurd.

Don't let the imperfect become the enemy of the good. I was not comparing the Ds to the Rs. In fact I'm sick of this Blood Vs Crips situation. Nobody will win in the long run. What we need is for team loyalty to return to sports where it belongs. Anyhow, don't mistake my talking about better ideas as my not supporting doing the best we can with what we have. What is the endgame anyway? Voting for the lesser evil indefinitely? Surely the plan is to stop the lesser evil situation at some point. I'm just talking about what things ought to look like when we aren't voting for the lesser evil. Like removing pay to win politics.
 
What do you think about removing the pay to win from our politics?
Great idea!

How would you go about removing the pay to win from your politics? Rhetorical question, of course. You know bloody well, no matter which party you vote for, or whether you vote at all, you'll either get a Republican or a Democrat government in the next term. And the term after that. And the term after that. Neither will remove the pay to win from politics. So what will you do about it?

As far as elections are concerned, there are only two options: Vote for The Really Bad Party, or Vote for The Not Quite AS Bad Party.

In Australia we are in a similar situation. No matter who we vote for, the next government will be formed by either the Labor Party or the conservative Liberal/National Party coalition. One big difference is having an instant runoff system. A vote for a minor party is not a vote thrown away. We can vote for the Official Monster Raving Loony Anarchist Party, if that is our first preference. When their candidates get nowhere, we can be confident that our vote goes to the less evil of the only two options that have an actual chance of forming the next government.

Make it an indefinite Felony for past and present government officials (top to bottom) to accept any payment other than from Tax payers through Federal and State government. Retired (or voted out) officials remain on the Government's generous payroll for life and retain appropriate benefits and protections. This is the sacrifice we ought to make to safeguard and uphold the US constitution.
Hello! Are you my phase delayed reflection?

I love your suggestion so much I made it myself a few years ago. I don't think it's wrong, but I do think it will require watering the tree to make it happen.

To my knowledge there were attempts to move towards that direction, however lack luster they are they're still useful. For example the Civil Service Reform Act and current campaign financing laws. They just stop short of out right banning pay to win politics because (DUH) the people we'd need to actually ban it are the same people accepting it.

The group can be a lot dumber than the individual, as well. For the change to be made you need individuals to spearhead the effort, at a potential political cost that doesn't make the effort with it for them. It might even be possible that many politicians want the system to work better, but it's difficult to get it done in the face of social dynamics.

The pandemic was a good case study in this. There were companies literally all over the world with no remote policy because of lack of political will or ability. Then a virus shows up and now they're all remote.

So there might be something a bit deeper going on, unless an issue has a pretty strong, or at least medium, consensus it's basically a non-starter.

At some point politicians need to demonstrate actual leadership for the good of their community, which happens sometimes.
 
Wow, yall really touchy. I didn't say "don't vote for demarcates!". I described the system as I see it and think it sucks. Voting for Biden is the best option. I agree. Should he be the best option? Hell no. Yipikaye MF.
Sucks relative to what?

I am ears for a better sytem that takes into account real world cranky and emotional illogical humans.

Educarion, material goods for the masses, individual freedoms, communications, and global travel is unorecdented in history.

When I look at a problem I'd go to a white board and write two columns, pro and con.

If you amke a value judgemt on where we are now you have to consder history and what is prccally achievable with humns ruling themselves.

There is an inherent problem in rule by the people. The founders knew it and set three checks and balances. SCOTUS,POTUS, and Congress. They set a process for constitutional change.


Any practical alternatives on the scale of the USA and all its diversity in culture, religion, and political views? I don't see one.

Lots of lyrical waxing bub. What do you think about removing the pay to win from our politics?

I think most or all of the posters here would like to see the big money taken out of politics. The problem is that we have no way to achieve that goal, especially considering that SCOTUS upheld Citizens United quite a few years ago, one of the worst SCOTUS decisions at the time.

How do you think we could change things? Anyway....I'm going to gift an article from WaPo that breaks down all of the biggest donors. Naturally George Soros tops the list. He is probably the most well known billionaire who gives lots of money for liberal causes. I don't know what the Republicans are going to do when poor old George dies. But, I digress. Please read my link if you'd like to see where the money is coming from.

https://wapo.st/3DDDlUb

The 50 biggest donors this cycle have collectively pumped $1.1 billion into political committees and other groups competing in the midterms, according to a Washington Post analysis of Federal Election Commission data. From billionaire investors to shipping magnates to casino moguls, these megadonors skew Republican, though they affiliate with both parties.

Topping the list are George Soros, the Hungarian-born Holocaust survivor and philanthropist to liberal causes globally, and Elizabeth and Richard Uihlein, founders of a shipping company and key benefactors behind the GOP’s move to the hard right in recent years.

Read the link for the rest of the big donors.
 
I think most or all of the posters here would like to see the big money taken out of politics. The problem is that we have no way to achieve that goal, especially considering that SCOTUS upheld Citizens United quite a few years ago, one of the worst SCOTUS decisions at the time.
We already see the campaign spending laws being circumvented by third parties advertising for candidates.

And while I don't like the effect of Citizens United I think the Supreme Court made the right constitutional call. Any reasonable campaign restrictions are going to fall afoul of the first amendment, we can only actually fix it with a constitional amendment.
 
I think most or all of the posters here would like to see the big money taken out of politics. The problem is that we have no way to achieve that goal, especially considering that SCOTUS upheld Citizens United quite a few years ago, one of the worst SCOTUS decisions at the time.
We already see the campaign spending laws being circumvented by third parties advertising for candidates.

And while I don't like the effect of Citizens United I think the Supreme Court made the right constitutional call. Any reasonable campaign restrictions are going to fall afoul of the first amendment, we can only actually fix it with a constitional amendment.
I don't equate free speech with money. Sorry, but I've never understood that position.

Perhaps you could explain how your position better. It doesn't seem fair to allow billionaires to have so much influence in elections since their influence has the potential to push lawmakers into passing laws that primarily benefit people like them. Of course, we all know that life's not fair, but do we really want to encourage a political system that is built on such obvious inequality?

The Democrats are far from perfect but without them, we wouldn't have programs like SS, M'care, M'caid, SNAP, help for disabled veterans, the earned income credit etc. Republicans would love to end or substantially reduce these programs, leaving even more poverty and inequality in a wealthy country where such extreme inequality shouldn't exist.
 
In my opinion a lot of things can be fixed by simply focusing our efforts on ending pay to win politics. Retroactively too; meaning every currently seated government official must forfeit all the money (and connected assets) they've received that are not from the state & federal government or relinquish their position by [insert reasonable timeframe here].

Edit: Yeah you too Bernie!!
 
Make it an indefinite Felony for past and present government officials (top to bottom) to accept any payment other than from Tax payers through Federal and State government. Retired (or voted out) officials remain on the Government's generous payroll for life and retain appropriate benefits and protections. This is the sacrifice we ought to make to safeguard and uphold the US constitution.
Wondered just how big a sacrifice that is.


If the average top to bottom government official is in office for, say, six years, and lives another, say, thirty years after leaving office, that makes three million people on the government's generous payroll for life. Don't know what you consider generous, but if that's, say, $100,000 a year, then we're talking $300 billion a year added to government expenditures, and some comparable amount reduced from GDP if we presume the average one of those folks could have found private employment for similar pay doing something useful.

That only counts elected officials. If you meant to include appointed officials, you may be talking trillions.

That seems like quite a lot to sacrifice in order to ensure government is kept in the hands of people who find a lifetime of idleness appealing.

(By the way, the John Oliver segment linked at the bottom of the above link is spectacular!)
 
I think most or all of the posters here would like to see the big money taken out of politics. The problem is that we have no way to achieve that goal, especially considering that SCOTUS upheld Citizens United quite a few years ago, one of the worst SCOTUS decisions at the time.
We already see the campaign spending laws being circumvented by third parties advertising for candidates.

And while I don't like the effect of Citizens United I think the Supreme Court made the right constitutional call. Any reasonable campaign restrictions are going to fall afoul of the first amendment, we can only actually fix it with a constitional amendment.
I don't equate free speech with money. Sorry, but I've never understood that position.
The Supreme Court didn't equate free speech with money. Quite the reverse -- it upheld the BCRA's disclosure requirements, which means you have a right to speak anonymously but have no right to pay others to speak for you anonymously, which means the SCOTUS is quite explicitly treating money differently from free speech. The whole widespread "Citizens United says money is speech." meme is just pro-censorship propaganda.

The law the Citizens United decision overturned was not a law to take big money out of politics -- it was a law that let the government suppress movies made by shoestring non-profit corporations like Citizens United while giving a free pass to $100 billion for-profit companies like Comcast. And the CU v FEC ruling was derived from the principle that people don't lose their First Amendment rights just by organizing themselves into a corporation. Is that a principle you disagree with?

That's the same principle underlying New York Times Co. v. United States. Do you really want America to give that up? Do you really want the next Richard Nixon who wants to ban the New York Times from publishing the next Pentagon Papers to be able to? If the SCOTUS ever rules that the First Amendment doesn't apply to corporations then he'll get to do just that. The New York Times is a corporation.
 
If the SCOTUS ever rules that the First Amendment doesn't apply to corporations then he'll get to do just that. The New York Times is a corporation.
The New York times is also the press which is specifically protected in the constitution.
 
I think most or all of the posters here would like to see the big money taken out of politics. The problem is that we have no way to achieve that goal, especially considering that SCOTUS upheld Citizens United quite a few years ago, one of the worst SCOTUS decisions at the time.
We already see the campaign spending laws being circumvented by third parties advertising for candidates.

And while I don't like the effect of Citizens United I think the Supreme Court made the right constitutional call. Any reasonable campaign restrictions are going to fall afoul of the first amendment, we can only actually fix it with a constitional amendment.
I don't equate free speech with money. Sorry, but I've never understood that position.
The Supreme Court didn't equate free speech with money. Quite the reverse -- it upheld the BCRA's disclosure requirements, which means you have a right to speak anonymously but have no right to pay others to speak for you anonymously, which means the SCOTUS is quite explicitly treating money differently from free speech. The whole widespread "Citizens United says money is speech." meme is just pro-censorship propaganda.

The law the Citizens United decision overturned was not a law to take big money out of politics -- it was a law that let the government suppress movies made by shoestring non-profit corporations like Citizens United while giving a free pass to $100 billion for-profit companies like Comcast. And the CU v FEC ruling was derived from the principle that people don't lose their First Amendment rights just by organizing themselves into a corporation. Is that a principle you disagree with?

That's the same principle underlying New York Times Co. v. United States. Do you really want America to give that up? Do you really want the next Richard Nixon who wants to ban the New York Times from publishing the next Pentagon Papers to be able to? If the SCOTUS ever rules that the First Amendment doesn't apply to corporations then he'll get to do just that. The New York Times is a corporation.
Now, I'm really confused and I don't have time right now to research this more but what I'm about to add a link that seems to disagree. And, as Zip implied it's already been made clear that the press has the freedom to report news, regardless of how that news was discovered. I'm not an attorney, so cut me some slack. Furthermore, it was the liberal judges who disagreed with the ruling. I doubt they would disagree with a ruling based on your claim.

https://www.brennancenter.org/our-work/research-reports/citizens-united-explained

January 21, 2020 will mark a decade since the Supreme Court’s ruling in Citizens United v. Federal Election Commission, a controversial decision that reversed century-old campaign finance restrictions and enabled corporations and other outside groups to spend unlimited funds on elections.

While wealthy donors, corporations, and special interest groups have long had an outsized influence in elections, that sway has dramatically expanded since the Citizens United decision, with negative repercussions for American democracy and the fight against political corruption.

What was Citizens United about?

A conservative nonprofit group called Citizens United challenged campaign finance rules after the FEC stopped it from promoting and airing a film criticizing presidential candidate Hillary Clinton too close to the presidential primaries.

A 5–4 majority of the Supreme Court sided with Citizens United, ruling that corporations and other outside groups can spend unlimited money on elections.

What was the rationale for the ruling?

In the court’s opinion, Justice Anthony Kennedy wrote that limiting “independent political spending” from corporations and other groups violates the First Amendment right to free speech. The justices who voted with the majority assumed that independent spending cannot be corrupt and that the spending would be transparent, but both assumptions have proven to be incorrect.

With its decision, the Supreme Court overturned election spending restrictions that date back more than 100 years. Previously, the court had upheld certain spending restrictions, arguing that the government had a role in preventing corruption. But in Citizens United, a bare majority of the justices held that “independent political spending” did not present a substantive threat of corruption, provided it was not coordinated with a candidate’s campaign.

As a result, corporations can now spend unlimited funds on campaign advertising if they are not formally “coordinating” with a candidate or political party.

I'll check back later or tomorrow for your reply. The case may have started out as a case about freedom of speech, but from my very quick look, it appears to be more about allowing unlimited funds to be spent by corporations. At least that seems to be the result of the decision.
 
I'll check back later or tomorrow for your reply. The case may have started out as a case about freedom of speech, but from my very quick look, it appears to be more about allowing unlimited funds to be spent by corporations. At least that seems to be the result of the decision.
I don't understand the objection here. Newspapers and media spread political propaganda, openingly in opinion pages and also openly in baised reporting. There are many "non-profit" organizations that spend heavliy in elections. Hello, Teacher's Unions. Should all of these media and organizations be stopped or limited in their spending?
 
If the SCOTUS ever rules that the First Amendment doesn't apply to corporations then he'll get to do just that. The New York Times is a corporation.
The New York times is also the press which is specifically protected in the constitution.
There has been precious little difference between freedom of speech and freedom of the press in U.S. constitutional jurisprudence. If Justice Stevens had gotten his way and turned the case on distinguishing between the constitutional rights of Citizens United and those of the mainstream media Congress had favored, he'd have been reversing a lot of precedents.


"Freedom of the press was described in 1972's Branzburg v. Hayes as "a fundamental personal right", not confined to newspapers and periodicals.[11] In Lovell v. City of Griffin (1938),[12] Chief Justice Charles Evans Hughes defined the press as "every sort of publication which affords a vehicle of information and opinion."[13] This right has been extended to newspapers, books, plays, movies, and video games.[14]"

"Although it had been uncertain whether people who blog or use other social media are journalists entitled to protection by media shield laws,[17] they are protected by the Free Speech and Free Press Clauses (neither of which differentiates between media businesses and nonprofessional speakers).[5][6][18] This is further supported by the Supreme Court, which has refused to grant increased First Amendment protection to institutional media over other speakers;[19][20][21] In a case involving campaign finance laws, the court rejected the "suggestion that communication by corporate members of the institutional press is entitled to greater constitutional protection than the same communication by" non-institutional-press businesses.[22]"
 
I'll check back later or tomorrow for your reply. The case may have started out as a case about freedom of speech, but from my very quick look, it appears to be more about allowing unlimited funds to be spent by corporations. At least that seems to be the result of the decision.
I don't understand the objection here. Newspapers and media spread political propaganda, openingly in opinion pages and also openly in baised reporting. There are many "non-profit" organizations that spend heavliy in elections. Hello, Teacher's Unions. Should all of these media and organizations be stopped or limited in their spending?
Yes. $50,000 max for all donors. Organizations caught trying to circumvent this should be severely fined. If you don't place limits on donations, you're basically turning elections into a lootbox fest.
 
... And the CU v FEC ruling was derived from the principle that people don't lose their First Amendment rights just by organizing themselves into a corporation. Is that a principle you disagree with?

That's the same principle underlying New York Times Co. v. United States. Do you really want America to give that up? Do you really want the next Richard Nixon who wants to ban the New York Times from publishing the next Pentagon Papers to be able to? If the SCOTUS ever rules that the First Amendment doesn't apply to corporations then he'll get to do just that. The New York Times is a corporation.
Now, I'm really confused and I don't have time right now to research this more but what I'm about to add a link that seems to disagree. And, as Zip implied it's already been made clear that the press has the freedom to report news, regardless of how that news was discovered. I'm not an attorney, so cut me some slack.
Always. I'm not an attorney either, but I have read Kennedy's decision, and a great deal of rhetoric being propagated around the net about the ruling is just misinformed.

Furthermore, it was the liberal judges who disagreed with the ruling. I doubt they would disagree with a ruling based on your claim.
I have also read Stevens' dissent. IMHO he should have been embarrassed to have written it -- it was a betrayal of the principles he so eloquently stood up for in his Bush v Gore dissent. He was blatantly arguing based on his opinion of what was good public policy rather than based on what the law is, as though he were a member of a House of Lords rather than a Supreme Court.

https://www.brennancenter.org/our-work/research-reports/citizens-united-explained

January 21, 2020 will mark a decade since the Supreme Court’s ruling in Citizens United v. Federal Election Commission, a controversial decision that reversed century-old campaign finance restrictions
You'd be well-advised not to rely on the Brennan Center; they aren't an objective source. They're casually reciting the same misinformed talking-points about the decision that have become conventional wisdom merely by endless repetition. Case in point: no, CU v FEC did not reverse century-old campaign finance restrictions. But the meme got started somehow, and then Obama repeated it, and then everyone and his brother repeated it. Although any number of lawyers have debunked it, the disinformation went around the world while the truth was getting its boots on. The century-old campaign finance restriction in question is the Tillman Act. It prohibited corporate gifts of money to candidates; it didn't prohibit corporations spending money on publishing their managers' opinions. CU v FEC did not reverse the Tillman Act.

I'll check back later or tomorrow for your reply. The case may have started out as a case about freedom of speech, but from my very quick look, it appears to be more about allowing unlimited funds to be spent by corporations. At least that seems to be the result of the decision.
When we enact laws guaranteeing rights, that has consequences -- some of them way outside the scenarios the original legislators intended, some of them hamstringing future legislatures from getting the outcomes they vote for. Congress and the states passed the Equal Protection clause of the 14th Amendment to try to force the South to treat black people better; they had no idea they were thereby ultimately forcing unwilling legislatures representing unwilling voters a hundred and fifty years later to treat gay people better. Such is life in a society with separation of powers. The First Amendment doesn't say you have freedom of religion as long as you don't spend more than $2900 on your religious observances; likewise with what you can spend on speaking or printing your political opinions. That's why the FEC can limit your gift to a politician to $2900 but can't limit how much you spend criticizing his opponent. If you think that's bad public policy, you can lobby for a constitutional amendment that will cut back on the degree to which our government guarantees free speech; the disconnect between what the government guarantees and what the people want it to guarantee is precisely what the amendment process was created for.

But as to whether lobbying for such an amendment would be prudent, I'd urge you to keep in mind that rights have consequences, and printing the Pentagon Papers undoubtedly cost the New York Times more than $2900.
 
...but from my very quick look, it appears to be more about allowing unlimited funds to be spent by corporations. At least that seems to be the result of the decision.
I don't understand the objection here. Newspapers and media spread political propaganda, openingly in opinion pages and also openly in baised reporting. ...
^^^^ That ^^^^

Congress passes campaign finance reform to let the FEC suppress stuff like Hillary: The Movie, but is apparently perfectly okay with corporations spending unlimited funds on electioneering, just as long as those corporations are members of the Comcast/Disney/Shari Redstone/Rupert Murdoch cartel. Not clear on how unlimited spending by anyone is supposed to hurt democracy more than unlimited spending by Congress's favored few does.

If there's a problem with too much money being spent on telling people how to vote, I can think of a safer solution than authorizing Congress to decide whose voting advice to censor: free broadband and computer literacy classes for all. Money in politics is a cultural problem, not a legal problem -- the money gets spent because so many voters decide how to vote by watching TV. If more people got their input from web surfing instead of from the idiot box then I expect political spending would show a lot smaller Return On Investment.
 
Thanks for your responses, Bomb. I'm not sure that I agree with all of your points. It does seem a bit weird that the liberal justices would have been against something that simply protected free speech. I guess it's all about how we interpret things as individuals.

I do have mixed feelings about the money spent by corporations. The primary problem as I see it is that when a corporation supports a candidate and spends lots of money to promote that candidate, if that person wins an election, the winner may feel obligated to vote for bills that help maintain the goals of the corporation. That is the real problem.

Money doesn't win elections. If it did, a lot more Democrats would have won in 2020, due to small donors. But, money from large corporations can influence how Congress votes. That I think is why so many people object to the Citizens United opinion. I think we would probably both agree that the amount of time and money spent on campaigns is pretty fucked up, regardless of how we might view Citizens United.
 

If there's a problem with too much money being spent on telling people how to vote, I can think of a safer solution than authorizing Congress to decide whose voting advice to censor: free broadband and computer literacy classes for all. Money in politics is a cultural problem, not a legal problem -- the money gets spent because so many voters decide how to vote by watching TV. If more people got their input from web surfing instead of from the idiot box then I expect political spending would show a lot smaller Return On Investment.
But isn' that how marketing and advertising has always worked even before radio and television was invented? Organized funding X money on marketing in order to brainwash people. This has obviously alwayed worked because there are human brains succeptable to be infuenced by an advertizing budget. Making no difference whether the marketing is a product or politician.... nor whether the medium is the printing press or the internet. Which is exactly why free broadband and literacy classes would not reduce being influenced by marketing. Our brains are still wired to be influenced by snake oil in every form. Marketing is the difference and its the $$$ money that buys the marketing.

The first amendment was supposed to be about free speech for the individual. Its not supposed to be about money or the marketing budget for the organization. Which should make this the legal difference.
 
I found another short opinion regarding the problem with Citizens United verdict. I assume that we will never agree on whether or not this was a good decision. I'm still in the "not" category.

https://publicintegrity.org/politics/the-citizens-united-decision-and-why-it-matters/

So if the decision was about spending, why has so much been written about contributions? Like seven and eight-figure donations from people like casino magnate and billionaire Sheldon Adelson who, with his family, has given about $40 million to so-called “super PACs,” formed in the wake of the decision?

For that, we need to look at another court case — SpeechNow.org v. FEC. The lower-court case used the Citizens United case as precedent when it said that limits on contributions to groups that make independent expenditures are unconstitutional.

And that’s what led to the creation of the super PACs, which act as shadow political parties. They accept unlimited donations from billionaires, corporations and unions and use it to buy advertising, most of it negative.
 
If you think that's bad public policy, you can lobby for a constitutional amendment that will cut back on the degree to which our government guarantees free speech; the disconnect between what the government guarantees and what the people want it to guarantee is precisely what the amendment process was created for.
In a better world, free speech would be called speech and spending money on marketing and lobbys would be called bribery and be illegal.

But since we have lawyers and lawyer talk we can no longer tell the difference between speech and money. Even though one is sound waves coming out of an individuals mouth and the other is money coming out of your wallet.
 
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