The theology of a matrix/simulation

[excreationist]

Miscellaneous quotes and ideas (with visuals)

There's a one in billions chance that this is base reality [NOT a simulation]

- Elon Musk
From YouTube "Is life a video game? | Elon Musk | Code Conference 2016" (2:51)

(Is this why there is suffering?)

Did you know that the first Matrix was designed to be a perfect human world? Where none suffered, where everyone would be happy. It was a disaster. No one would accept the program.

- Agent Smith

Modern Last Thursdayism (Last Thursdayism for the new generation)

The idea that our matrix and our oldest memories were created last Thursday

Why I think the Tree of Life / Sefirot is complete nonsense:

Apparently the "argument from authority" is a logical fallacy. I have been developing a new holistic approach to esoteric symbols and found that nothing in the "Tree of Life" or Sefirot fits nicely with my system. Perhaps the source of the Sefirot was initially useful but then lost the connection with objective reality. Personally I suspect that our objective reality is that we are part of a simulation that can have paradoxes (such as those in Christianity).

Bender, being God isn't easy... You have to use a light touch like a safecracker or a pickpocket... When you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all.

The God Entity, Futurama

[perhaps] some malicious demon of the utmost power and cunning has employed all his energies in order to deceive me. I shall think that the sky, the air, the earth, colours, shapes, sounds and all external things are merely the delusions of dreams which he has devised to ensnare my judgment.

Rene Descartes 1641

(Though our senses can be deceived, we can be sure that we exist in some sense - even if it is as a part of a simulation)

If we are in a simulation then the supernatural is theoretically possible like it is in the Sims though delusion is a more likely explanation

If we are in a simulation, long-lasting hell is theoretically possible. May the master of our matrix be merciful.

Last year I had a hunch that there was an "intelligent force". Today I started referring to "the master of our matrix". It seems likely that it exists and could be at least partly an AI.

 

[Koyaanisqatsi]

Did you know that the first Matrix was designed to be a perfect human world? Where none suffered, where everyone would be happy. It was a disaster. No one would accept the program.

Here's the crux. There would be no option to accept (or reject). If we were in a simultation, we would simply be. To "accept" something means we would necessarily have to know the difference. Iow, we would all have to be Joe Pantoliano's character--outside the matrix--being offered the blue pill, understand fully what it entailed and then have the agency to accept it.

But, of course, once we did, we'd no longer have any such knowledge.

Which means, if we are in a simulation, then we all already took the blue pills and there would be no wondering if we are in a simulation.

So if we're wondering whether or not we're in a simulation, then we must not be in a simulation.

QED

 

[excreationist]

[MENTION=2680]Koyaanisqatsi[/MENTION]:
I have a problem with just about everything in the Matrix movies. I just liked that quote because it is possible explanation for why there is suffering.

...if we are in a simulation, then we all already took the blue pills and there would be no wondering if we are in a simulation...

I think in most simulations that would exist in the future there will be no offerings of red and blue pills.

So if we're wondering whether or not we're in a simulation, then we must not be in a simulation.

Do you agree that in the far future many simulations will be made that are indistinguishable from reality? In most or all of the movies about simulations the people wondered whether they were in simulations - and they were...

 

[Koyaanisqatsi]

I believe what will happen is we'll eventually figure out how to "download" our user illusions (our "selves") and mimic the brain/self animation to the point where we will effectively just live within little black boxes (or whatever the technology will be). I.e., we will be simulations, but it will be a choice made after we have already lived long lives.

I don't see any point to a "grand architect" situation who essentially creates a "virtual" reality and sets it for "evolution" just to see if the ones and zeroes eventually form complex "organisms" that evolve to a point of intellectual blah blah blah.

It's an algorithm that creates more algorithms. What would be the point? Just imagine you are that architect. You create an algorithm that in turn creates self-replicating algorithms exponentially. Why? You're bored? It would do nothing for you and be even more pointless for any of the simulations.

Plus that STILL necessitates an objective condition at some prime point, so while all of our "lives" would be utterly pointless, there will still objectively exist at least one individual (the architect) that set our pointless algorithms into motion, so to speak. So there would have to be at least one prime reality that all other simulations are based upon.

 

[excreationist]

BTW about Microsoft Flight Simulator 2020 - It lets you go around the whole globe (using a server to get the satellite/3D city building data) and even zoom into blades of grass and individual leaves on trees.
https://stormbirds.files.wordpress.com/2019/09/procedurally-generated_grass_normandie-1.jpeg
That shows that a simulation of the globe doesn't need the data for the whole globe on every single computer that is playing the game.

 

[excreationist]

I believe what will happen is we'll eventually figure out how to "download" our user illusions (our "selves") and mimic the brain/self animation to the point where we will effectively just live within little black boxes (or whatever the technology will be). I.e., we will be simulations, but it will be a choice made after we have already lived long lives.

Yes... though here I'm concerned with the possible situation that we're currently in - that it is likely we're in a simulation.

I don't see any point to a "grand architect" situation who essentially creates a "virtual" reality and sets it for "evolution" just to see if the ones and zeroes eventually form complex "organisms" that evolve to a point of intellectual blah blah blah.

From my quote:
"Modern Last Thursdayism - The idea that our matrix and our oldest memories were created last Thursday"

I don't think it is necessary that our simulation explicitly simulated all of history starting with the big bang.

It's an algorithm that creates more algorithms. What would be the point? Just imagine you are that architect. You create an algorithm that in turn creates self-replicating algorithms exponentially. Why? You're bored? It would do nothing for you and be even more pointless for any of the simulations.

Plus that STILL necessitates an objective condition at some prime point, so while all of our "lives" would be utterly pointless, there will still objectively exist at least one individual (the architect) that set our pointless algorithms into motion, so to speak. So there would have to be at least one prime reality that all other simulations are based upon.

Yes the simulations would be based on prime reality but they aren't necessarily very similar - e.g. maybe the evolution of pretty birds and flowers was guided rather than being copies of what was in prime reality.

 

[Elixir]

I'm concerned with the possible situation that we're currently in - that it is likely we're in a simulation.

Of course the situation that each of us is in is a simulation. Each person's sensory apparatus produces the neural effect of a reality.
We find it reassuring to assume that there exists an external reality that is shared by all of us, albeit from perspectives that are unique to each of us since each of our sets of sensory apparatus receives different inputs.
What if that's not the case?
So what? - that's what. Not much you can do about it, and no point in trying to do anything about it even if it was possible.
As far as all of us being in the same simulation - no chance.

 

[excreationist]

...As far as all of us being in the same simulation - no chance.

Yes that is yet another way that I disagree with the Matrix movies.

BTW here's a longer quote from Elon Musk:

"...the games will become indistinguishable from reality. ...there would probably be billions of such computers and set-top boxes. ...it would seem to follow that the odds that we're in base reality (NOT a simulation) is one in billions"

 

[excreationist]

Usually the earliest simulations would be filled with "philosophical zombies" - it would be less CPU/memory intensive.

 

[steve_bank]

First, assignat of numerical probabilities is impossible.

Second, is there such a thing as pseudo theology?

People glom onto all sorts of things, like The Matrix, and turn it into something.

'What is reality?' has no meaning. It is unanswerable. philosophy and religion attempt to answer and provide meaning. Modern science goes one step further by quantifying observation, measurement, and experiment. But even science can not answer questions about ultimate reality.

I have been listening to the Coast To Coast late night radio show. Mostly pseudo science and making science mystical.An endless stream of authors writing books on questions like is this all a simulation. A lot of people seem to like it.

 

[excreationist]

First, assignat of numerical probabilities is impossible.

If it is likely that in the future there will be billions of simulations that are indistinguishable from reality then "it would seem to follow that the odds that we're in base reality (NOT a simulation) is one in billions". Or perhaps advanced civilizations throughout the universe never get to the point of making those simulations.

Second, is there such a thing as pseudo theology?

I don't know but I'm talking about the supernatural and hell, etc, in the OP quotes.

People glom onto all sorts of things, like The Matrix, and turn it into something.

I sometimes talk about the matrix because it has a big fan base.

'What is reality?' has no meaning. It is unanswerable. philosophy and religion attempt to answer and provide meaning.

Even if it has no meaning it is asked a lot. And most people would believe they know the Truth, even if it involves conspiracy theories, etc.

Modern science goes one step further by quantifying observation, measurement, and experiment. But even science can not answer questions about ultimate reality.

Well in this thread I'm talking about "theology".

I have been listening to the Coast To Coast late night radio show. Mostly pseudo science and making science mystical. An endless stream of authors writing books on questions like is this all a simulation. A lot of people seem to like it.

Good because ultimately I'd like to make money out of this.

 

[Koyaanisqatsi]

But, again, other than personally deciding to leave prime reality and enter into digital reality, what would be the point of anyone creating a matrix? Let’s say it’s you. You are the architect. Why do it? In the movie, the reason was to turn biological beings into batteries to run a technology-based world, which is preposterous.

So if it’s not some ridiculous plot contrivance, then what would be the point of writing an algorithm that in turn generates self-replicating algorithms? Just take a pencil and write down any equation you want on a piece of paper. That is the full extent of what any “architect” would be doing. What the numbers did after that act would be completely inaccessible to the architect. All “he” would see is a formula on a piece of paper.

And as to the formula, it too would not have any self-referential abilities. It would just be more formulas.

We evolved because we die. Formulas don’t die.

As to Last Thursdayism, no, we cannot know—directly experience—whether or not everything about us was written last Thursday, but again it’s not about the limitations of being an observer and what that entails; it’s about the motivation of anything that would seek to create a fake reality.

Our brains generate a user illusion out of necessity due to the fact that they (our brains) exist in an infinite amount of information (aka, the Universe). It’s too much information to process, so it creates rudimentary simulations/maps of only the most important information necessary for continued survival. But if survival were not an objective reality, then there is nothing.

I don’t mean that philosophically. There is objectively no point for eternal beings to exist and therefore no logic/sense/reason to create them, let alone to create them and then erase from their creation the surety of knowledge about their objective condition.

It is literally like writing the number “5” on a piece of paper. Other than noting five things, what point is there for anyone to write a number “5” on a piece of paper and then sit and watch to see if the number starts writing other numbers?

Nor is it sufficient to assert that the reason can’t be known. Reason is not mysterious or subject to ineffable-ness. It’s a process as well and there is nothing that it can’t be applied to; nothing beyond its scope, particularly in regard to this fundamental question.

Either there was an intention behind a particular action or there was accident. In this scenario, we are positing intention. Ok, so what is the intent behind writing a video game where the characters all “think” they are autonomous beings that are NOT living in a virtural reality?

They are not served by it; they are simply programmed into it. The video game creator is not served by it, other than it’s a way to make a living, but there certainly could be no grander design or purpose behind it than some cheese-eater needed to pay his rent.

It’s like saying the guy who invented Pong is God to the paddles and the pong ball. That would be absolutely meaningless to all concerned and would only diminish the whole notion of a “God,” not bolster the idea that paddles and pong ball is a robust universe unto itself.

 

[excreationist]

...But, again, other than personally deciding to leave prime reality and enter into digital reality, what would be the point of anyone creating a matrix? Let’s say it’s you. You are the architect. Why do it? In the movie, the reason was to turn biological beings into batteries to run a technology-based world, which is preposterous....

Some reasons:
eXistenZ: for entertainment
Thirteenth Floor: research for a tech company, for entertainment
Vanilla Sky: to make a better version of their life
Black Mirror, "Hang the DJ": creates 1000 simulations to test for romantic compatibility
Black Mirror, "USS Callister": clones of people are put into a Star Trek like game with the player having God-like power

Other reasons:
- A sandbox like GTA V where players sometimes terrorise the general public
- The Sims - perhaps there will be a version that is indistinguishable from reality

Note that a simulation doesn't necessarily have to copy the "real world" - it could be fantasy with magic (the Sims also has that) or in an alternate version of the future (Cyberpunk 2077)

 

[excreationist]

....Ok, so what is the intent behind writing a video game where the characters all “think” they are autonomous beings that are NOT living in a virtural reality?....

I find it to be a very interesting concept... this idea is in many movies and TV shows - including Rick and Morty

The technology for those AI might begin with virtual companions - it would make them seem more "real" if they seem to believe that they are real.

 

[Koyaanisqatsi]

...But, again, other than personally deciding to leave prime reality and enter into digital reality, what would be the point of anyone creating a matrix? Let’s say it’s you. You are the architect. Why do it? In the movie, the reason was to turn biological beings into batteries to run a technology-based world, which is preposterous....

Some reasons:
eXistenZ: for entertainment

Too meaningless.

What you’re positing is that a person on a planet of other people in a prime reality created the game Monopoly to play for entertainment purposes and that, unbeknownst to him, the car and the thimble and the iron analogues evolved self-awareness and a rich inner life due to the many times the players in the prime reality played the game.

THAT is the fundamental concept from which you’re positing; that from the shoe’s perspective, it is actually walking down the sidewalk in Chicago passing “Go” and staying on Park Place and deciding to buy a home there and seeing the top hat and the guy on the horse stay in the shoe’s house and then two houses and then Hotel, etc., and that one day they all evolved self-awareness and asked each other, “Why do we not get to collect $200 and must go directly to Jail?”

That is analogous to our actual existence.

But you’re just kind of fudging that part and instead taking the Monopoly reality of our existence and playing fast and loose with the parameters and saying, “Well, what if the creator of Monopoly actually was the one that imbued the shoe with consciousness?”

Well, no, that’s not the scenario. That’s a completely different scenario with different assumptions; different starting points; different rules; etc.

Thirteenth Floor: research for a tech company, for entertainment

See above.

Vanilla Sky: to make a better version of their life

But if none of it is real—we’re just ones and zeroes—then what does “better” even mean? And “version”? There would be an infinite number of versions instantaneously.

Such terms simply have no meaning under those conditions.

They only way there is meaning is if there first is a prime reality that we then choose to leave, but even then, without termination, it is all instantly pointless. Unless something ends, it cannot be valued.

Black Mirror, "Hang the DJ": creates 1000 simulations to test for romantic compatibility
Black Mirror, "USS Callister": clones of people are put into a Star Trek like game with the player having God-like power

Other reasons:
- A sandbox like GTA V where players sometimes terrorise the general public
- The Sims - perhaps there will be a version that is indistinguishable from reality

Note that a simulation doesn't necessarily have to copy the "real world" - it could be fantasy with magic (the Sims also has that) or in an alternate version of the future (Cyberpunk 2077)

We already have all of that. We call them dreams. So, yes, again, creating a lucid dreaming machine would be great and I have little doubt that this is precisely the ultimate evolved state for all intelligent beings in the universe that get to the point of extra-terrestrial travel—and realize it’s too damn far between planets—and that we will soon be discovering (wth robot probes) entire planets covered in little black boxes that contain trillions of uploaded consciousnesses, but, again, they will all have been chosen.

Iow, “god” is our brain and “we” are already the simulations “god” creates, but aside from those terms, there exists our brains and our bodies objectively no matter what our “I” experiences.

 

[Koyaanisqatsi]

....Ok, so what is the intent behind writing a video game where the characters all “think” they are autonomous beings that are NOT living in a virtural reality?....

I find it to be a very interesting concept... this idea is in many movies and TV shows - including Rick and Morty

The technology for those AI might begin with virtual companions - it would make them seem more "real" if they seem to believe that they are real.

But to whom? They will only “seem” real to someone that IS real. That’s what being real entails.

 

[excreationist]

....THAT is the fundamental concept you’re positing; that from the shoe’s perspective, it is actually walking down the sidewalk in Chicago passing “Go” and staying on Park Place and deciding to buy a home there and seeing the top hat and the guy on the horse stay in the shoe’s house and then two houses and then Hotel, etc., and that one day they all evolved self-awareness....

I wrote in post #9:

Usually the earliest simulations would be filled with "philosophical zombies" - it would be less CPU/memory intensive.

I'm saying that even characters that appear to human may lack self-awareness, so of course the shoe wouldn't have self-awareness!

Black Mirror, "Hang the DJ": creates 1000 simulations to test for romantic compatibilityBlack Mirror, "USS Callister": clones of people are put into a Star Trek like game with the player having God-like power

We already have all of that. We call the dreams....

I am unable to visualise anything and my dreams are very vague and colorless. And I have no control over my dreams. Apparently in dreams some things are different such as not being able to read numbers. A game like GTA V is far more vivid than any of my dreams. And it can last for hours at a time, etc.

 

[excreationist]

....Ok, so what is the intent behind writing a video game where the characters all “think” they are autonomous beings that are NOT living in a virtural reality?....

I find it to be a very interesting concept... this idea is in many movies and TV shows - including Rick and Morty

The technology for those AI might begin with virtual companions - it would make them seem more "real" if they seem to believe that they are real.

But to whom? They will only “seem” real to someone that IS real. That’s what being real entails.

I think an AI can have the "belief" that something is "real". I mean according to their reasoning, they treat certain things as "true".

 

[excreationist]

BTW there are ancient ideas that can involve a simulation like being trapped in a "dream" or having endless reincarnation including those based on punishment/reward.

 

[excreationist]

About "God" being in a simulation: