https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...a-sheds-light-on-secret-mission-idUSKBN1FI12I
Oops--the "rebel" leader died. In Syria. In a Russian general's uniform.
Oops--the "rebel" leader died. In Syria. In a Russian general's uniform.
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Features
The Ukranian "rebels" were from Moscow
- Thread starter Loren Pechtel
- Start date
barbos
Contributor
Captain obvious strikes again!
Do you expect people shocked by that? You really believe this is Iran-Contras level revelation?
Nobody sane in Russia believes that there are no rusian (effectively) troops in Eastern Ukraine, nobody. It's worst kept secret.
Question is, how many and the answer is not many but enough to make current Ukrainian government effort for final solution fail.
Do you want to know something which is ACTUALLY kinda shocking? Ukrainian government assholes hate Russia so much that they buy gas from Europe. Russian gas is transported to Europe through the gas pipeline over Ukraine, companies in EU buy that gas, then sell it back (with profit) to Ukraine. And gas actually pass through pipelines back and forth. Then Ukrainian President proudly proclaims that Ukraine got rid of russian gas dependence. Same story with coal. They buy their eastern Ukraine coal through Poland and surprisingly .... Russia. And everybody in Ukraine knows it.
Do you expect people shocked by that? You really believe this is Iran-Contras level revelation?
Nobody sane in Russia believes that there are no rusian (effectively) troops in Eastern Ukraine, nobody. It's worst kept secret.
Question is, how many and the answer is not many but enough to make current Ukrainian government effort for final solution fail.
Do you want to know something which is ACTUALLY kinda shocking? Ukrainian government assholes hate Russia so much that they buy gas from Europe. Russian gas is transported to Europe through the gas pipeline over Ukraine, companies in EU buy that gas, then sell it back (with profit) to Ukraine. And gas actually pass through pipelines back and forth. Then Ukrainian President proudly proclaims that Ukraine got rid of russian gas dependence. Same story with coal. They buy their eastern Ukraine coal through Poland and surprisingly .... Russia. And everybody in Ukraine knows it.
Harry Bosch
Contributor
Dude: I can find a thousand posts on this forum where you denied that Russian troops were in Eastern Ukraine! The reason why some Ukrainian's hate Russia is that you invade them and take their land....
untermensche
Contributor
Big powers, powerful nations, meaning nations with a very large military and the resources to deploy it, like Russia don't only like to take land they like to control governments and take resources and exploit labor as well.
It is what big powers have done to smaller powers for as long as there have been big and small powers.
It is what big powers have done to smaller powers for as long as there have been big and small powers.
zorq
Veteran Member
Barbos, we all agree that this news isn't surprising.
Surely though, you must recognize that there is a big difference between a retired Russian footsoldier choosing to join ranks with rebels in Ukraine and an active duty Russian General leading Ukranian rebels while still taking orders directly from Moscow.
Do you see the difference?
Surely though, you must recognize that there is a big difference between a retired Russian footsoldier choosing to join ranks with rebels in Ukraine and an active duty Russian General leading Ukranian rebels while still taking orders directly from Moscow.
Do you see the difference?
untermensche
Contributor
You just have to know how the world works to know at least what is being attempted.
What Moscow wants is to control governments.
That is how you get what you want.
If it can't do that it will try to subvert governments and get another one.
And if there are any people loyal to Moscow it will exploit them as well. To the greatest extent possible.
What Moscow wants is to control governments.
That is how you get what you want.
If it can't do that it will try to subvert governments and get another one.
And if there are any people loyal to Moscow it will exploit them as well. To the greatest extent possible.
barbos
Contributor
barbos
Contributor
Yes, there is a difference. Yes without help from Russia which is mostly advisory and financial with occasional direct involvement these rebel republics would probably have fallen. So yes, there is this difference. Now, US is helping current regime in Kiev which let be honest is only slightly more legitimate than what we have in Eastern Ukraine.
barbos
Contributor
You can replace "Moscow" with "Washington" and you won't be wrong.
untermensche
Contributor
Every power.
They all do it.
That was the Cold War. The Soviet Union controlling and exploiting in it's sphere in Eastern Europe and elsewhere and the US doing the same in many places like South and Central America and Western Europe and Korea and Vietnam and Indochina and elsewhere.
The saber rattling was a pose as they interfered and exploited as much as possible. It actually got dangerous in Cuba but that real danger was eliminated quickly.
Jason Harvestdancer
Contributor
I hate to say it but untermensche is actually sort-of right for a change.
Major powers to manipulate and interfere in the internal workings of lesser powers. That includes not just Moscow, but Washington, Paris, London, Beijing, etc. Even medium powers do it to small powers. It is nothing new.
What makes this sort of newsworthy is "Oh my god, Moscow is horning in on Washington's game."
Major powers to manipulate and interfere in the internal workings of lesser powers. That includes not just Moscow, but Washington, Paris, London, Beijing, etc. Even medium powers do it to small powers. It is nothing new.
What makes this sort of newsworthy is "Oh my god, Moscow is horning in on Washington's game."
Moscow Barbie strikes again.
Yes who would not like to be part of the awesome place that is Russia. Average lifespan is a generous 70 years, on par with India and the GDP per person is an amazing 7800$, the tech sector is blooming, who has not used the latest tech gadget from the Russian factories....er it seems that Russia produces nothing but oil, gas and disappointment. I sure hope that Russia invades my country next so our standard of living can go down the shitter.
barbos
Contributor
Commies were not big on "exploiting". In fact exact opposite was happening. They were giving money left and right to buy loyalty while their own population was living way worse than these allies they were helping.
You don't get the implications.
There's no way the guy was there without Moscow's ok. That means the "rebels" were really Russians in disguise. That was an invasion, not a rebellion.
barbos
Contributor
Nope, Rebellion is a real thing, but Moscow is no doubt and within reasonable limits assisting militarily/financially, because these guys are not qualified to conduct large scale military defense even against such a week force as Ukrainian army. Plus Moscow provides unifying center for different factions.
You can brainwash your fellow americans with these "implications" but it won't work In Russia or Ukraine.
It's not an invasion, it's stupid
Ford
Contributor
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Next thing you'll be telling me that the missile that shot down that airliner wasn't fired off because someone made a whoopsie.
barbos
Contributor
If you are payed by Moscow I think they should ask about a refund. But it´s not like Russia is brimming with talent.
Ford
Contributor
- Joined
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- Messages
- 7,374
- Location
- Freedomland
- Basic Beliefs
- Just don't knock on my door on a Saturday Morning
Well rubles aren't worth as much as dollars, but a Kremlin employee has to make their way in the world somehow.