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The woman never lies about rape?

She is not just a liar, but a false accuser who cost an innocent man 2 years of his life. I think if a false accusation yields to jail time it should be treated as false imprisonment.
In any case, her anonymous status was because of her status as "sexual assault victim". Since we know that that status was fraudulent, she should not reap the benefits of it.

I have a somewhat different position.

Framing someone for a crime carries the same punishment the charges would have carried for the person you framed. (Thus if you frame someone in a three-strikes state and you can get life over something pretty minor.) This would also apply to things like cops planting evidence, DA's knowingly hiding things that would exonerate a person etc.
 
Awful and shocking injustice. Imo she should be prosecuted and he should be compensated.

2-8% of rape accusations are deemed false, as I understand it. We could say 5%. 1 in every 20. Not insignificant.

Deemed false does not mean no rape, just as a not guilty verdict doesn't mean no rape. This case (one of a number highlighted in the media lately) seems to be more clear cut than some.

No--deemed false means the cops figured out that her rape claim is definitely false, not merely not proven.

(Which is why prosecuting women for false claims doesn't endanger those who make claims that aren't good enough to convict. There's a big middle ground between he's guilty beyond a reasonable doubt and she's lying beyond a reasonable doubt.)
 
Well, first, it’s not just “anyone.” It’s Bill Cosby, aka Clifford Huxtable and for millions a beloved and trusted “father” figure who had presented himself as a moral authority for decades.
No. This thread is about some average bloke from England. The Cosby thread is here.
No? I was responding to what someone else had written. Try to keep up.
 
Here's my two cents...

First thing. There were many failures here, not just one single failure point. Police can be technologically dumb, likewise for judges etc. That's a given. So they may think facebook is evidence of something without understanding edits and archives. AND, the guy seemed to know that there were edits. He gave his facebook credentials to his sister-in-law to look for issues. So wouldn't the proper course of events be to talk to his attorney during the course of the pre-trial as the facebook evidence is being considered and get a subpoena or whatever is necessary to get the archives/edits? And following that have the defense attorney make a case that the evidence is not actually evidence but instead that there was a consensual relationship at least at one point? Instead, somehow all the investigative work or lack of work by the sister-in-law took 4 years?

I rather suspect he didn't have the money for a good defense and trusted the system. When it failed he had his SIL do the looking because he was in jail and couldn't look.

Second thing. We have very little information about this. We don't know what other evidence was presented at trial. There could have been other things. Also, we don't actually know he did not do something wrong in the relationship, like assault/rape. What we know is that this one or two bits of evidence out of a set of evidence was incorrectly used to add to a conclusion that was at best premature and at worst based on a deliberately false accusation.

Anything to pretend the woman doesn't lie. Read the article--the unedited comments show that she wanted the relationship to continue. This sounds very much like getting back at him for breaking up with her.

Third thing. The young lady probably should be a suspect now as a false accuser and an investigation should be open. However, let's not rush to a conclusion for ideological reasons she is guilty of something here. The evidence indicates she deleted messages but there is no context as to why. So, she may have deleted all of her facebook messages. OR maybe they get archived once you message a million messages. OR maybe she deleted a select number of messages directly and indirectly about sex because she wanted to be private, not even knowing one day that his messages would be used as evidence of something. OR maybe he even did abuse her. And she was angry about the relationship and so she deleted all messages pertaining to him without a realization that it was potentially destruction of evidence. Clearly, the messages got deleted but we have to understand intent here without rushing to yell she's the guilty accuser.

Once again, grasping at straws to pretend she's not guilty. The edits were very carefully done to change the meaning of conversations. That's not an accident.

Fourth thing. Since we don't know many things, imagine a scenario that is completely different from what some people are thinking about a vindictive bitch. Imagine she was 15 years old when this older man started grooming her as he knew age of consent was 16 in UK. Then, imagine he did convince her of a relationship when she was 16 and she realized at 17 she had been manipulated a bit. Imagine some of the relationship she agreed to but some was nonconsensual afterward. Now let's say she got pissed off and deleted all of her messages with him about sex. She then at 17 went to the incompetent bumbling police. Police went through all kinds of evidence for two years and made assumptions, not being tech savvy. So he couldn't make bail for two years, then he went to jail for another two years and 6 months later his appeal worked which is a total of 4.5 years later making her now 21.5 years of age. Considering she was a minor but of age of consent at the time, and considering statute of limitations, what charges should be brought against her in this scenario?

I don't know the British statute of limitations, this might be why she's not being charged. (Although, again, you're grasping at straws trying to make him guilty.)
 
Why in the world should there be a statute of limitations on reporting a rape? Cosby did worse than rape; he drugged women unconscious—an act that could have killed any of the numerous women he preyed upon—in order to rape their lifeless bodies. He should be put down like a dog for the betterment of the species and has finally—rightfully—met justice for his despicable crimes. It has nothing to do with “feminism.”

The longer it has been since a crime was committed the harder it is to defend oneself against the allegations.

How so? Particularly when it’s a “he said/she said” scenario as almost all rape cases boil down to from day one. Cosby’s case was from 2004 and he had no problem defending himself. He only lost because, you know, he was guilty and his testimony was bullshit, but that would be true no matter when the case was tried.

Conversely, take the OP case. The alleged event happened a comparatively short time ago and he somehow didn’t remember any of the Facebook messages that supposedly would have exculpated him. Chronology didn’t help him one bit.

We have the same sort of thing with taxes

Yeah. Not the same thing.

For an example of thing going wrong--there's been some trouble in recent years with states digging up old, incomplete financial data and billing people (since they're the state they aren't subject to the normal limits on debt collection) for ancient things that people no longer have the records around to show that they already paid.

(I used to have something of this sort of trouble with the local library. Just about every time they had a system crash it would manufacture a phantom overdue book--something I really had checked out, but it lost the information that it was returned. Generally a simple issue of confirming that the book really was on the shelf and a human would remove it from my account. Something of a hassle when the book really did disappear--in the end I was able to show that had I really not returned it there were a bunch of other books I had checked out that I wouldn't have been allowed to.)

Yeah. Again, not comparable. How’s this? I beat the living shit out of you. Does it matter when I did it? If I did it yesterday or a year ago or five years ago or ten years ago does the number of orbits around the sun in any way change the fact that I beat the shit out of you? The answer is, of course, no. No it does not.
 
Loren, can you provide a link to any post that anyone has ever written in which they expressed the opinion that women never lie?

Derec, you know how I like to track down the original context of sentence fragments posted online? You should try it. You'll find your understanding of the meaning of the fragment "women must always be believed" is off base. It's likely the person who mined that quote wanted you to misunderstand, but I'm still a bit surprised you fell for it.

Your side pretends you don't believe that but you consider any claim of rape to be automatically correct.

My 'side' wants the police to properly and thoroughly investigate reported rapes. What's wrong with that? Do you think the cops should pick and choose which reports they're going to investigate based on the gender of the person making it?
 
Frankly, I don't see how the jury concluded anything at all based on these texts. I also don't see a pattern by the alleged victim of deletion. There is no rhyme or reason I can see and really no making him look guilty either. I frankly don't get it at all. Also, I don't get how this somehow implicates her of faking something and that's because I don't see how it implicates him. If I were on his jury, I'd be like 'wtf.'

47A7956300000578-5223567-image-a-35_1514681396548.jpg

Wtf, indeed.

Those conversations don't exonerate the guy any more than they condemn him. It looks like there's a huge amount of information we're lacking. I wonder what other evidence was presented in court, because what we've seen here doesn't amount to much of anything.
 
I rather suspect he didn't have the money for a good defense and trusted the system. When it failed he had his SIL do the looking because he was in jail and couldn't look.



Anything to pretend the woman doesn't lie. Read the article--the unedited comments show that she wanted the relationship to continue. This sounds very much like getting back at him for breaking up with her.

Third thing. The young lady probably should be a suspect now as a false accuser and an investigation should be open. However, let's not rush to a conclusion for ideological reasons she is guilty of something here. The evidence indicates she deleted messages but there is no context as to why. So, she may have deleted all of her facebook messages. OR maybe they get archived once you message a million messages. OR maybe she deleted a select number of messages directly and indirectly about sex because she wanted to be private, not even knowing one day that his messages would be used as evidence of something. OR maybe he even did abuse her. And she was angry about the relationship and so she deleted all messages pertaining to him without a realization that it was potentially destruction of evidence. Clearly, the messages got deleted but we have to understand intent here without rushing to yell she's the guilty accuser.

Once again, grasping at straws to pretend she's not guilty. The edits were very carefully done to change the meaning of conversations. That's not an accident.

Fourth thing. Since we don't know many things, imagine a scenario that is completely different from what some people are thinking about a vindictive bitch. Imagine she was 15 years old when this older man started grooming her as he knew age of consent was 16 in UK. Then, imagine he did convince her of a relationship when she was 16 and she realized at 17 she had been manipulated a bit. Imagine some of the relationship she agreed to but some was nonconsensual afterward. Now let's say she got pissed off and deleted all of her messages with him about sex. She then at 17 went to the incompetent bumbling police. Police went through all kinds of evidence for two years and made assumptions, not being tech savvy. So he couldn't make bail for two years, then he went to jail for another two years and 6 months later his appeal worked which is a total of 4.5 years later making her now 21.5 years of age. Considering she was a minor but of age of consent at the time, and considering statute of limitations, what charges should be brought against her in this scenario?

I don't know the British statute of limitations, this might be why she's not being charged. (Although, again, you're grasping at straws trying to make him guilty.)

You are engaging in pure speculation because of ideology and without proper information. I have documented the so-called evidence of the texts and it clearly doesn't prove he would have been guilty. So indeed there is missing information here OR the jury was really stupid and made bad decisions. BUT based on available evidence her deletions of texts show such vague messages, they could have been talking about anything, especially a relationship which is how it sounds most likely.
 
I find it telling that there are people in the forum who say he was made to look guilty on flimsy evidence but are willing to find her guilty on flimsy evidence.
 
How so? Particularly when it’s a “he said/she said” scenario as almost all rape cases boil down to from day one. Cosby’s case was from 2004 and he had no problem defending himself. He only lost because, you know, he was guilty and his testimony was bullshit, but that would be true no matter when the case was tried.

Sometimes it doesn't matter. Sometimes it does. (For example, where's your alibi witness from 10 years ago?) The law doesn't distinguish.

Conversely, take the OP case. The alleged event happened a comparatively short time ago and he somehow didn’t remember any of the Facebook messages that supposedly would have exculpated him. Chronology didn’t help him one bit.

You remember casual chats from some time ago??

For an example of thing going wrong--there's been some trouble in recent years with states digging up old, incomplete financial data and billing people (since they're the state they aren't subject to the normal limits on debt collection) for ancient things that people no longer have the records around to show that they already paid.

(I used to have something of this sort of trouble with the local library. Just about every time they had a system crash it would manufacture a phantom overdue book--something I really had checked out, but it lost the information that it was returned. Generally a simple issue of confirming that the book really was on the shelf and a human would remove it from my account. Something of a hassle when the book really did disappear--in the end I was able to show that had I really not returned it there were a bunch of other books I had checked out that I wouldn't have been allowed to.)

Yeah. Again, not comparable. How’s this? I beat the living shit out of you. Does it matter when I did it? If I did it yesterday or a year ago or five years ago or ten years ago does the number of orbits around the sun in any way change the fact that I beat the shit out of you? The answer is, of course, no. No it does not.

It's not about changing the facts, it's about your ability to defend yourself against the charges.

When something is alleged to have happened 20 years ago, think you can find anyone to alibi you? Back that far it's unlikely people would remember when something happened, and without that you almost certainly have no alibi.
 
No--deemed false means the cops figured out that her rape claim is definitely false, not merely not proven.

Um, sort of. Except anywhere I've read of it, police forces routinely conflate 'false' with other categories.

And also:

"Harris and Grace (1999), Smith (1989), and others found that police decisions to no-crime were frequently dubious and based entirely on the officer's personal judgment."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_accusation_of_rape

Which is why prosecuting women for false claims doesn't endanger those who make claims that aren't good enough to convict. There's a big middle ground between he's guilty beyond a reasonable doubt and she's lying beyond a reasonable doubt.

That might explain why this accuser (the woman in the OP case) isn't being prosecuted for false rape allegations, since it wasn't deemed to be that, as far as I am aware.

She could, I think, still be prosecuted for lying or fabricating evidence, in a rape trial.

As I understand it, in the UK, there are about 20 prosecutions per year in such or similar cases, sometimes for wasting police time (presumably in cases which do not reach court) and/or attempting to pervert the course of justice.
 
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Koyaanisqatsi said:
Yeah. Again, not comparable. How’s this? I beat the living shit out of you. Does it matter when I did it? If I did it yesterday or a year ago or five years ago or ten years ago does the number of orbits around the sun in any way change the fact that I beat the shit out of you? The answer is, of course, no. No it does not.

It's not about changing the facts, it's about your ability to defend yourself against the charges.

When something is alleged to have happened 20 years ago, think you can find anyone to alibi you? Back that far it's unlikely people would remember when something happened, and without that you almost certainly have no alibi.

The prosecution faces an even higher hurdle. It must present credible evidence in order to prove guilt beyond a reasonable doubt. Eyewitness testimony from 20 years ago is somewhat dubious for the reasons you give - memories fade or can be altered over time. If that's all the Prosecution has, it most likely won't be enough.

However, that doesn't mean the statute of limitation shouldn't be changed to allow charges from 20 years ago to be brought to trial. Back when most criminal statutes were first written, there was no such thing as DNA evidence or video recordings or modern forensic science. If the statutes haven't been updated in a while, they should be updated now, especially in light of how evidence of rape gathered 40 years ago has led to the arrest of a suspect in the Golden State Killer case.
 
Loren, can you provide a link to any post that anyone has ever written in which they expressed the opinion that women never lie?

Derec, you know how I like to track down the original context of sentence fragments posted online? You should try it. You'll find your understanding of the meaning of the fragment "women must always be believed" is off base. It's likely the person who mined that quote wanted you to misunderstand, but I'm still a bit surprised you fell for it.

Your side pretends you don't believe that but you consider any claim of rape to be automatically correct.
[LP Filter]Yes, you are correct. No one in here has ever made the claim that no woman has ever lied about rape. But to be fair, that doesn't help my argument, so I'm going to pretend that there is no importance to that fact and state that despite that being true, you still believe women never lie about rape.[/LP Filter]
 
When something is alleged to have happened 20 years ago, think you can find anyone to alibi you? Back that far it's unlikely people would remember when something happened, and without that you almost certainly have no alibi.
That is also true for murder or other charges that do not have statues of limitations. Do you propose statute of limitations for every possible crime ?
 
Loren, can you provide a link to any post that anyone has ever written in which they expressed the opinion that women never lie?

Derec, you know how I like to track down the original context of sentence fragments posted online? You should try it. You'll find your understanding of the meaning of the fragment "women must always be believed" is off base. It's likely the person who mined that quote wanted you to misunderstand, but I'm still a bit surprised you fell for it.

Your side pretends you don't believe that but you consider any claim of rape to be automatically correct.

My 'side' wants the police to properly and thoroughly investigate reported rapes. What's wrong with that? Do you think the cops should pick and choose which reports they're going to investigate based on the gender of the person making it?

No. Your side doesn't want an investigation of whether she's telling the truth, only of finding her rapist.
 
To be clear, I do not doubt Constand's story. It's some of the others that I scratch my head on.
Well, first, it’s not just “anyone.” It’s Bill Cosby, aka Clifford Huxtable and for millions a beloved and trusted “father” figure who had presented himself as a moral authority for decades. Iow, someone people trusted, admired and looked up to. Here’s the account in regard to Constand:



Here’s more from the NYT (emphasis mine):

The prosecutors contend Mr. Cosby used quaaludes, or some similar drug, one night in 2004 to disable Ms. Constand, a former employee of Temple University whom Mr. Cosby is charged with sexually assaulting on a couch at his home near here.

Ms. Constand testified in court earlier in the week that the pills Mr. Cosby gave her put her “underwater,” slipping in and out of consciousness and unable to prevent his sexual advances. She said she couldn’t move her arms or legs or tell him to stop.

“I was frozen,” she said. “I just wanted it to stop.”

She said he had indicated they were herbal pills.

Mr. Cosby said in his deposition that the three pills he gave her were Benadryl, though he never told her what they were, and that the sex was consensual. He said he considered Benadryl a sleeping aid, one that he frequently used himself.

So break that down for a moment. She evidently mentioned—to her trusted mentor—that she was under a lot of stress. He says something along the lines of, “I’ve got some herbal pills that will help with that” and then instead gives her either Quaaludes or Benadryl with wine.

Let’s take him at his word and say they were Benadryl, something he stated he used frequently as a sleeping aid. If you’ve ever taken Benadryl, you know it’s not just a sleeping “aid” and you also know that three pills—with wine, no less—is a high dosage, but fine, she was highly stressed.

So where does the sex enter into any of that? She’s stressed; he gives her what he knows to be a powerful sleeping aid. So why doesn’t he let her go to sleep?

Let’s even say that the effects of the wine and the Benadryl make her lose her inhibitions and she comes onto him. He’s twenty years her senior and supposedly a morally upstanding grown-assed married man. Why doesn’t he simply immediately recognize her reaction as being nothing more than a drug-induced aberration? He is somehow powerless to stop what is evidently a “frozen” young woman on Benadryl and wine?

But seriously, it rings strange to me that women would just accept Quaaludes (multiple ones) and NOT know it was going to knock them out.

Quaaludes—like all drugs—are not monolithic agents that always have the same results every time no matter who takes them. Depending on dosage and purity and body type/body weight—again, just as with all drugs, legal and illegal—as wells as a host of other factors (a person’s tolerance; what they had to eat or drink; their current state of general health; etc; etc) they can and do cause a varying degree of reactions.

Hell, if you’ve ever gone out drinking on an empty stomach or abstained for a day or two and then had a glass you can see how radically different your own tolerance and reactions can be. In the 70’s, Qualuudes were a regular staple in most drug user circles—certainly out in Hollywood—along with cocaine, pot and booze (and heroin).

It would not be uncommon, either, for people within those circles back in the 70’s—or today for that matter—to take whatever drug was handed them, particularly from someone seen as trustworthy/prominent/etc. It may be stupid, but it was not uncommon and most definitely is victim blaming whether you intended it or not as the malicious intent was present.

If I give you a bouquet of hemlock because I think it’s pretty and feel you deserve such a gift because you’re an amazing person that’s obviously a very different set of circumstances than if I give you the same bouquet because I plan on taking some of it when you’re not looking, brewing it into a poisonous tea that I in turn tell you is an “herbal remedy” for your headache and then watch you drink it until you fall dead on the floor, yes?

He didn't unknowingly 'spike their drink with roofies' - he OFFERED them the drugs - did they REALLY REALLY REALLY not know?

Again, it is not on them to know somebody else’s malicious intent. Yes, arguably everyone should always approach life as if every single person they ever meet is out to murder or rape them, but that’s not generally how we navigate life. And predators like Cosby know this and clearly took full advantage of that fact.

Just look to the Constand situation. He openly admitted he was very familiar with the effects of Benadryl—noting specifically that it was something he frequently took in order to knock him unconscious (a “sleeping aid”)—but even if he had no malicious intent when first giving her the high dosage (with wine chaser), he should have immediately recognized that she was under the effect of the drugs, let alone the fact that he was a married man committing adultery.

Every step of the way proves his malicious intent, either toward his “mentee” or toward his wife at the very least.

I agree, that's not consent and sleeping with an unconscious or semi conscious person is deplorable. But that fact keeps nagging me (and not in all of his accusers, but in a couple).

Well, consider that then the next time a trusted member of your family or circle of friends or someone you have always admired and looked up to says something like, “Wait, I’ve got the perfect thing for your headache. It’s 100% herbal and I take it myself.”
 
In India, the Supreme court is aware of the false cases and has asked for preliminary investigation of the case before arresting a person in two kinds of cases. 1. Accusation of rape, and 2. Accusation of dowry demand. This is routine and there are thousands of such cases. For rape, the common complaint is "he promised me to marry me and took advantage". The Supreme court said, if the women is an adult, she knows the consequences, why did she get into such a situation. Does not a man has the liberty to change his mind? For both, rape and dowry demand, the accused (one, or more in cases of dowry demand, sometimes whole families) was/were supposed to be arrested immediately with no bail (what do you term it in US - parole?).
 
Ok, read your entire response and nope, sorry, no......I would NOT take drugs from any 'friends, family or mentors' not knowing what they were or how I would respond (at least not as an adult - even a young one). And no, I'm not victim blaming - at no time did I say that they deserved or brought it on themselves. At no time did I say it's ok to have sex with an incapacitated person. I simply do not believe "all" of the accusers' stories.

I believe Constand's story.
Well, first, it’s not just “anyone.” It’s Bill Cosby, aka Clifford Huxtable and for millions a beloved and trusted “father” figure who had presented himself as a moral authority for decades. Iow, someone people trusted, admired and looked up to. Here’s the account in regard to Constand:



Here’s more from the NYT (emphasis mine):

The prosecutors contend Mr. Cosby used quaaludes, or some similar drug, one night in 2004 to disable Ms. Constand, a former employee of Temple University whom Mr. Cosby is charged with sexually assaulting on a couch at his home near here.

Ms. Constand testified in court earlier in the week that the pills Mr. Cosby gave her put her “underwater,” slipping in and out of consciousness and unable to prevent his sexual advances. She said she couldn’t move her arms or legs or tell him to stop.

“I was frozen,” she said. “I just wanted it to stop.”

She said he had indicated they were herbal pills.

Mr. Cosby said in his deposition that the three pills he gave her were Benadryl, though he never told her what they were, and that the sex was consensual. He said he considered Benadryl a sleeping aid, one that he frequently used himself.

So break that down for a moment. She evidently mentioned—to her trusted mentor—that she was under a lot of stress. He says something along the lines of, “I’ve got some herbal pills that will help with that” and then instead gives her either Quaaludes or Benadryl with wine.

Let’s take him at his word and say they were Benadryl, something he stated he used frequently as a sleeping aid. If you’ve ever taken Benadryl, you know it’s not just a sleeping “aid” and you also know that three pills—with wine, no less—is a high dosage, but fine, she was highly stressed.

So where does the sex enter into any of that? She’s stressed; he gives her what he knows to be a powerful sleeping aid. So why doesn’t he let her go to sleep?

Let’s even say that the effects of the wine and the Benadryl make her lose her inhibitions and she comes onto him. He’s twenty years her senior and supposedly a morally upstanding grown-assed married man. Why doesn’t he simply immediately recognize her reaction as being nothing more than a drug-induced aberration? He is somehow powerless to stop what is evidently a “frozen” young woman on Benadryl and wine?

But seriously, it rings strange to me that women would just accept Quaaludes (multiple ones) and NOT know it was going to knock them out.

Quaaludes—like all drugs—are not monolithic agents that always have the same results every time no matter who takes them. Depending on dosage and purity and body type/body weight—again, just as with all drugs, legal and illegal—as wells as a host of other factors (a person’s tolerance; what they had to eat or drink; their current state of general health; etc; etc) they can and do cause a varying degree of reactions.

Hell, if you’ve ever gone out drinking on an empty stomach or abstained for a day or two and then had a glass you can see how radically different your own tolerance and reactions can be. In the 70’s, Qualuudes were a regular staple in most drug user circles—certainly out in Hollywood—along with cocaine, pot and booze (and heroin).

It would not be uncommon, either, for people within those circles back in the 70’s—or today for that matter—to take whatever drug was handed them, particularly from someone seen as trustworthy/prominent/etc. It may be stupid, but it was not uncommon and most definitely is victim blaming whether you intended it or not as the malicious intent was present.

If I give you a bouquet of hemlock because I think it’s pretty and feel you deserve such a gift because you’re an amazing person that’s obviously a very different set of circumstances than if I give you the same bouquet because I plan on taking some of it when you’re not looking, brewing it into a poisonous tea that I in turn tell you is an “herbal remedy” for your headache and then watch you drink it until you fall dead on the floor, yes?

He didn't unknowingly 'spike their drink with roofies' - he OFFERED them the drugs - did they REALLY REALLY REALLY not know?

Again, it is not on them to know somebody else’s malicious intent. Yes, arguably everyone should always approach life as if every single person they ever meet is out to murder or rape them, but that’s not generally how we navigate life. And predators like Cosby know this and clearly took full advantage of that fact.

Just look to the Constand situation. He openly admitted he was very familiar with the effects of Benadryl—noting specifically that it was something he frequently took in order to knock him unconscious (a “sleeping aid”)—but even if he had no malicious intent when first giving her the high dosage (with wine chaser), he should have immediately recognized that she was under the effect of the drugs, let alone the fact that he was a married man committing adultery.

Every step of the way proves his malicious intent, either toward his “mentee” or toward his wife at the very least.

I agree, that's not consent and sleeping with an unconscious or semi conscious person is deplorable. But that fact keeps nagging me (and not in all of his accusers, but in a couple).

Well, consider that then the next time a trusted member of your family or circle of friends or someone you have always admired and looked up to says something like, “Wait, I’ve got the perfect thing for your headache. It’s 100% herbal and I take it myself.”
 
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