Three middle school boys charged with sexual harassment for not using “preferred” gender pronouns of classmate

Three middle school boys charged with sexual harassment for not using “preferred” gender pronouns of classmate - The Lion

Three students at a Wisconsin middle school are being charged with sexual harassment for not using another student’s “preferred” gender pronouns. And the legal organization representing the accused suggests one school official may have been on “a fishing expedition to find evidence of sexual...

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Three students at a Wisconsin middle school are being charged with sexual harassment for not using another student’s “preferred” gender pronouns.
And the legal organization representing the accused suggests one school official may have been on “a fishing expedition to find evidence of sexual harassment” during interviews that failed to follow the school’s own policies.

In March, officials at Kiel Middle School first notified the parents of three eighth-grade boys that their sons were being investigated for sexual harassment.
According to the district, the boys failed to use a classmate’s requested pronouns of “they” and “them.” The school claims the conduct is sexual harassment under Title IX, which prohibits gender-based harassment in the form of name-calling.

Rose Rabidoux, the mother of one of the boys, told local media the use of pronouns was “confusing” to her son. She added that the classmate only recently announced the preferred pronouns, suggesting that other students were still adjusting.

“Sexual harassment – that’s rape, that’s incest, that’s inappropriate touching,” Rabidoux said. “What did my son do? He’s a little boy. He told me that he was being charged with sexual harassment for not using the right pronouns.”

Attorneys from the Wisconsin Institute for Law and Liberty (WILL) are representing the Rabidoux family and the families of the other two students who were accused.
In a May 12 letter sent to the superintendent, the school counselor and the Title IX compliance officer, WILL accuses the district of misinterpreting Title IX, which makes no mention of “gender identity.” They also say none of the alleged behavior “comes remotely close to sexual harassment.”

“The complaint against these boys, and the district’s ongoing investigation, are wholly inappropriate and should be immediately dismissed,” the letter reads.
The letter also argues that the district violated Title IX investigation procedures and the school’s own policies. Based on the evidence provided, WILL says the district should “promptly end the investigation, dismiss the complaints and remove them from each of the boys’ records.”

In response to parents’ complaints, superintendent Brad Ebert released a statement that fails to address the specifics of the case. Instead, the letter notes that the Kiel Area School District “prohibits all forms of bullying and harassment in accordance with all laws, including Title IX, and will continue to support ALL students regardless of race, color, religion, national origin, ancestry, creed, pregnancy, marital status, parental status, sexual orientation, sex (including transgender status, change of sex or gender identity), or physical, mental, emotional or learning disability (“Protected Classes”) in any of its student programs and activities; this is consistent with school board policy. We do not comment on any student matters.”
WILL has asked the district to provide key documents in the case by Friday. If the district fails to respond, the parents are expected to take legal action.

 

[Trausti]

Paging (oh I'm old) Dr. Jordan Peterson.

 

[steve_bank]

If it is a case of intentional bullying that is one thing.

If not it is the progressive cultural conformity police. It will work its way into the business world.

To me it is like enforced Chinese social conformity.

 

[Toni]

It does appear that there is a bit more to the charges than in the article that Metaphor linked:

Students Accused Of Using Wrong Pronouns Subject Of Title IX Complaint

Students Accused Of Using Wrong Pronouns... - Green Bay, WI - Three eighth grade boys are the subject of a sexual harassment complaint, which their attorneys argue violates their First Amendment rights.

patch.com

At most, the statement describes a few isolated incidents of teasing and arguments between the 8th-grade students in question,” said the letter, dated Thursday. “But none of this warrants accusations of sexual harassment and the serious reputational harm that comes with it.”

From this quote above, I will go out on a limb and suggest that the kids being charged engaged in some pretty focused harassment of a student they don’t like or whose differences made them uncomfortable. I don’t know the town or the kids involved but I did raise 4 kids. School administration is typically loathe to address incidents of harassment of any kind, whether it involves sexual harassment, racism or just plain harassment and bullying. By students, parents or teachers.

The mother quoted refers to her 8th grade son, who would be 13 or 14, as a little boy. He’s not a little boy, even if he has yet to enter puberty. He’s old enough to know that he might be hurting someone’s feelings by words he chooses, including words which in other circumstances are perfectly innocuous. The article I linked seems to indicate an intent to harass, embarrass or shame the student who prefers they and them as pronouns, rather than a simple slip up or several.

 

[laughing dog]

First, this is not a criminal complaint, it is an alleged violation of school or school district policy, so at this stage there is no reason for any attorney to be involved which makes me wonder about the motives of some of the parents.

Second, one of the mother's of these boys is quoted in the article linked by Toni as saying

“Sexual harassment, that’s rape, that’s incest, that’s inappropriate touching,” Rose Rabidoux, the mother of one of the boys, told WEAU 13 NEWS. “What did my son do? He’s a little boy. He told me that he was being charged with sexual harassment for not using the right pronouns.”

This mother does not know what sexual harassment is. And, the entire reaction is based on what her son says he is being charged with.

I strongly suspect there is more to this incident and story than the one-sided account from a parent.

Edited to add

If you go to the WILL website (the organization defending these boys), there is a link to the letter from the school (Letter to parents ) which includes the following statement
After being informed that a student's preferred pronouns were "they/them", (redacted names) engaged in conduct based on gender identity toward the student including incorrect pronouns and conduct that was harassing in nature".

So, it appears that it was more than just incorrect pronouns.

 

[Metaphor]

First, this is not a criminal complaint, it is an alleged violation of school or school district policy, so at this stage there is no reason for any attorney to be involved which makes me wonder about the motives of some of the parents.

On the contrary, I would say there is a very good reason to have an attorney. Having 'sexual harassment' on your permanent educational record seems a situation that very definitely warrants defending yourself.

Additionally, the school's letters to the families state that the families 'may have an advisor of their choice ... an attorney'.

Second, one of the mother's of these boys is quoted in the article linked by Toni as saying

“Sexual harassment, that’s rape, that’s incest, that’s inappropriate touching,” Rose Rabidoux, the mother of one of the boys, told WEAU 13 NEWS. “What did my son do? He’s a little boy. He told me that he was being charged with sexual harassment for not using the right pronouns.”

This mother does not know what sexual harassment is. And, the entire reaction is based on what her son says he is being charged with.

I'm not sure what you mean? The son is definitely being charged with sexual harassment.

I strongly suspect there is more to this incident and story than the one-sided account from a parent.

Edited to add

If you go to the WILL website (the organization defending these boys), there is a link to the letter from the school (Letter to parents ) which includes the following statement
After being informed that a student's preferred pronouns were "they/them", (redacted names) engaged in conduct based on gender identity toward the student including incorrect pronouns and conduct that was harassing in nature".

So, it appears that it was more than just incorrect pronouns.

It depends on what actions they are alleging that are 'harassing in nature', though the original notification says the crime is 'mispronouning'.

 

[steve_bank]

Kids calling ohers fatty, queer or faggot, ugly, four eyes and so on.

 

[Toni]

First, this is not a criminal complaint, it is an alleged violation of school or school district policy, so at this stage there is no reason for any attorney to be involved which makes me wonder about the motives of some of the parents.

On the contrary, I would say there is a very good reason to have an attorney. Having 'sexual harassment' on your permanent educational record seems a situation that very definitely warrants defending yourself.

Additionally, the school's letters to the families state that the families 'may have an advisor of their choice ... an attorney'.

Second, one of the mother's of these boys is quoted in the article linked by Toni as saying

“Sexual harassment, that’s rape, that’s incest, that’s inappropriate touching,” Rose Rabidoux, the mother of one of the boys, told WEAU 13 NEWS. “What did my son do? He’s a little boy. He told me that he was being charged with sexual harassment for not using the right pronouns.”

This mother does not know what sexual harassment is. And, the entire reaction is based on what her son says he is being charged with.

I'm not sure what you mean? The son is definitely being charged with sexual harassment.

I strongly suspect there is more to this incident and story than the one-sided account from a parent.

Edited to add

If you go to the WILL website (the organization defending these boys), there is a link to the letter from the school (Letter to parents ) which includes the following statement
After being informed that a student's preferred pronouns were "they/them", (redacted names) engaged in conduct based on gender identity toward the student including incorrect pronouns and conduct that was harassing in nature".

So, it appears that it was more than just incorrect pronouns.

It depends on what actions they are alleging that are 'harassing in nature', though the original notification says the crime is 'mispronouning'.

In the US, it is extremely unlikely that any allegations will follow these boys past high school and not very likely that they will follow these boys as far as high school. ‘Permanent record’ generally does not start until high school. Frankly, no one cares about what you did in high school the day after you graduate from high school, with the exception of admissions offices for post secondary schools. After you are admitted, they don’t look at your high school record ever again. Only serious misconduct such as academic dishonesty or serious violence resulting in criminal charges might possibly ( but not certainly) would hinder admissions to most post secondary schools or programs. To be honest, no one cares how good ( or bad) a student/athlete/musician you were in high school starting the day after you graduate.

This may be different in Australia or other parts of the world.

Secondly, no one is charged with a crime. I do agree that it might be in the boys’ best interests if they retained the services of attorneys to represent them at meetings with the school. School administrators are not always correct and sometimes they will attempt to railroad kids out of expediency rather than justice.

To the point about the mother’s understanding of sexual harassment: It is clear from her quote that she does NOT understand what acts and behaviors are considered sexual harassment. perhaps an attorney will help her understand. Regardless, the mother isn’t being accused of anything. Her son is. The mother seems to be doing what most parents do: reflexively claim innocence on the part of her child.

We are not given details about what kinds of behaviors are alleged to have taken place. I would guess it’s much worse than accidentally slipping up and calling their classmate he or she instead of they.

It’s not surprising. Adolescents are often quite uncomfortable with differences, with sex or sexuality, much less gender and gender identity. Some kids will express this discomfort by bullying or harassing whoever makes them uncomfortable or to deflect unwanted attention ruin from themselves.

 

[Metaphor]

First, this is not a criminal complaint, it is an alleged violation of school or school district policy, so at this stage there is no reason for any attorney to be involved which makes me wonder about the motives of some of the parents.

On the contrary, I would say there is a very good reason to have an attorney. Having 'sexual harassment' on your permanent educational record seems a situation that very definitely warrants defending yourself.

Additionally, the school's letters to the families state that the families 'may have an advisor of their choice ... an attorney'.

Second, one of the mother's of these boys is quoted in the article linked by Toni as saying

“Sexual harassment, that’s rape, that’s incest, that’s inappropriate touching,” Rose Rabidoux, the mother of one of the boys, told WEAU 13 NEWS. “What did my son do? He’s a little boy. He told me that he was being charged with sexual harassment for not using the right pronouns.”

This mother does not know what sexual harassment is. And, the entire reaction is based on what her son says he is being charged with.

I'm not sure what you mean? The son is definitely being charged with sexual harassment.

I strongly suspect there is more to this incident and story than the one-sided account from a parent.

Edited to add

If you go to the WILL website (the organization defending these boys), there is a link to the letter from the school (Letter to parents ) which includes the following statement
After being informed that a student's preferred pronouns were "they/them", (redacted names) engaged in conduct based on gender identity toward the student including incorrect pronouns and conduct that was harassing in nature".

So, it appears that it was more than just incorrect pronouns.

It depends on what actions they are alleging that are 'harassing in nature', though the original notification says the crime is 'mispronouning'.

In the US, it is extremely unlikely that any allegations will follow these boys past high school and not very likely that they will follow these boys as far as high school. ‘Permanent record’ generally does not start until high school. Frankly, no one cares about what you did in high school the day after you graduate from high school, with the exception of admissions offices for post secondary schools.

Universities have withdrawn offers from students before, based on something the university finds out the student did in their teens.

After you are admitted, they don’t look at your high school record ever again. Only serious misconduct such as academic dishonesty or serious violence resulting in criminal charges might possibly ( but not certainly) would hinder admissions to most post secondary schools or programs. To be honest, no one cares how good ( or bad) a student/athlete/musician you were in high school starting the day after you graduate.

This may be different in Australia or other parts of the world.

Secondly, no one is charged with a crime. I do agree that it might be in the boys’ best interests if they retained the services of attorneys to represent them at meetings with the school. School administrators are not always correct and sometimes they will attempt to railroad kids out of expediency rather than justice.

To the point about the mother’s understanding of sexual harassment: It is clear from her quote that she does NOT understand what acts and behaviors are considered sexual harassment. perhaps an attorney will help her understand.

She was describing her reaction to reading the accusation. 'Sexual harassment' contains a wide range of behaviours.

Regardless, the mother isn’t being accused of anything. Her son is. The mother seems to be doing what most parents do: reflexively claim innocence on the part of her child.

Most would, but she has also heard specifics. According to her son, he defended a friend who had called the complainant 'she' by saying something like 'you can't make him use they and them, that's what the first amendment is about' (paraphrased - there are videos on the WILL page with the exact wording).

We are not given details about what kinds of behaviors are alleged to have taken place. I would guess it’s much worse than accidentally slipping up and calling their classmate he or she instead of they.

"Accidentally slipping up" and "deliberately misgendering for harassment purposes" are not the entirety of the sample space.

It’s not surprising. Adolescents are often quite uncomfortable with differences, with sex or sexuality, much less gender and gender identity. Some kids will express this discomfort by bullying or harassing whoever makes them uncomfortable or to deflect unwanted attention ruin from themselves.

Evidently you've made up your mind on that, though I see a difference between rejecting gender ideology and 'bullying or harassing'.

 

[Toni]

First, this is not a criminal complaint, it is an alleged violation of school or school district policy, so at this stage there is no reason for any attorney to be involved which makes me wonder about the motives of some of the parents.

On the contrary, I would say there is a very good reason to have an attorney. Having 'sexual harassment' on your permanent educational record seems a situation that very definitely warrants defending yourself.

Additionally, the school's letters to the families state that the families 'may have an advisor of their choice ... an attorney'.

Second, one of the mother's of these boys is quoted in the article linked by Toni as saying

“Sexual harassment, that’s rape, that’s incest, that’s inappropriate touching,” Rose Rabidoux, the mother of one of the boys, told WEAU 13 NEWS. “What did my son do? He’s a little boy. He told me that he was being charged with sexual harassment for not using the right pronouns.”

This mother does not know what sexual harassment is. And, the entire reaction is based on what her son says he is being charged with.

I'm not sure what you mean? The son is definitely being charged with sexual harassment.

I strongly suspect there is more to this incident and story than the one-sided account from a parent.

Edited to add

If you go to the WILL website (the organization defending these boys), there is a link to the letter from the school (Letter to parents ) which includes the following statement
After being informed that a student's preferred pronouns were "they/them", (redacted names) engaged in conduct based on gender identity toward the student including incorrect pronouns and conduct that was harassing in nature".

So, it appears that it was more than just incorrect pronouns.

It depends on what actions they are alleging that are 'harassing in nature', though the original notification says the crime is 'mispronouning'.

In the US, it is extremely unlikely that any allegations will follow these boys past high school and not very likely that they will follow these boys as far as high school. ‘Permanent record’ generally does not start until high school. Frankly, no one cares about what you did in high school the day after you graduate from high school, with the exception of admissions offices for post secondary schools.

Universities have withdrawn offers from students before, based on something the university finds out the student did in their teens.

After you are admitted, they don’t look at your high school record ever again. Only serious misconduct such as academic dishonesty or serious violence resulting in criminal charges might possibly ( but not certainly) would hinder admissions to most post secondary schools or programs. To be honest, no one cares how good ( or bad) a student/athlete/musician you were in high school starting the day after you graduate.

This may be different in Australia or other parts of the world.

Secondly, no one is charged with a crime. I do agree that it might be in the boys’ best interests if they retained the services of attorneys to represent them at meetings with the school. School administrators are not always correct and sometimes they will attempt to railroad kids out of expediency rather than justice.

To the point about the mother’s understanding of sexual harassment: It is clear from her quote that she does NOT understand what acts and behaviors are considered sexual harassment. perhaps an attorney will help her understand.

She was describing her reaction to reading the accusation. 'Sexual harassment' contains a wide range of behaviours.

Regardless, the mother isn’t being accused of anything. Her son is. The mother seems to be doing what most parents do: reflexively claim innocence on the part of her child.

Most would, but she has also heard specifics. According to her son, he defended a friend who had called the complainant 'she' by saying something like 'you can't make him use they and them, that's what the first amendment is about' (paraphrased - there are videos on the WILL page with the exact wording).

We are not given details about what kinds of behaviors are alleged to have taken place. I would guess it’s much worse than accidentally slipping up and calling their classmate he or she instead of they.

"Accidentally slipping up" and "deliberately misgendering for harassment purposes" are not the entirety of the sample space.

It’s not surprising. Adolescents are often quite uncomfortable with differences, with sex or sexuality, much less gender and gender identity. Some kids will express this discomfort by bullying or harassing whoever makes them uncomfortable or to deflect unwanted attention ruin from themselves.

Evidently you've made up your mind on that, though I see a difference between rejecting gender ideology and 'bullying or harassing'.

Colleges only look at middle school (in the US, this includes 8th grade) grade transcripts if courses were taken for high school credit. They do not look at attendance records, misbehavior that does not rise to criminal (and even then, it would be difficult to look at such records as they are normally sealed). It is exceedingly unlikely that any college would look at this case with respect to determining whether or not to offer any of the students involved admissions, or to withdraw such offers. If this alleged behavior is determined to be of a serious nature and is part of a pattern repeated in high school, that's a different matter. They would note suspensions, expulsions, etc. for behavior and if it is referred to in the student's record, they may get a hint that this is an issue that began in middle school.

I made no comment about what the mother did or did not hear. I commented only on her claim, which is incorrect.

Under Title IX, Sexual harassment is described as follows:

Sex-based Harassment

Title IX of the Education Amendments of 1972 (Title IX) prohibits discrimination on the basis of sex in all education programs and activities operated by recipients of federal funds, including colleges, universities, and public school districts.

www2.ed.gov

Title IX requires schools to take steps to prevent and remedy two forms of sex-based harassment: sexual harassment (including sexual violence) and gender-based harassment Sexual harassment is unwelcome conduct of a sexual nature. It includes unwelcome sexual advances, requests for sexual favors, and other verbal, nonverbal, or physical conduct of a sexual nature. Sexual violence is a form of sexual harassment. Sexual violence, as OCR uses the term, refers to physical sexual acts perpetrated against a person’s will or where a person is incapable of giving consent. A number of different acts fall into the category of sexual violence, including rape, sexual assault, sexual battery, sexual abuse, and sexual coercion.

Title IX also prohibits gender-based harassment, which is unwelcome conduct based on a student’s sex, harassing conduct based on a student’s failure to conform to sex stereotypes.

Sex-based harassment can be carried out by school employees, other students, and third parties. All students can experience sex-based harassment, including male and female students, LGBT students, students with disabilities, and students of different races, national origins, and ages. Title IX protects all students from sex-based harassment, regardless of the sex of the parties, including when they are members of the same sex.

Sex-based harassment creates a hostile environment if the conduct is sufficiently serious that it denies or limits a student’s ability to participate in or benefit from the school’s program. When a school knows or reasonably should know of possible sex-based harassment, it must take immediate and appropriate steps to investigate or otherwise determine what occurred. If an investigation reveals that the harassment created a hostile environment, the school must take prompt and effective steps reasonably calculated to end the harassment, eliminate the hostile environment, prevent its recurrence, and, as appropriate, remedy its effects.

I bolded the portion that seems applicable in this case.
As I noted in my first post, certain conduct might affect potential admissions to some colleges:

Only serious misconduct such as academic dishonesty or serious violence resulting in criminal charges might possibly ( but not certainly) would hinder admissions to most post secondary schools or programs.

Depending on exactly what was said or done, if such conduct continues to occur into high school, it could possibly affect college admissions. Despite the fact that the boys in question are in 8th grade, they are only in 8th grade, middle school, not high school, despite them being teenagers (in all likelihood). The mother is wrong: her son is not a little boy. But he's also not an adult, despite the horrific practice in some jurisdictions of holding such young adolescents and charging them as adults in serious crimes. For one thing, no one is being charged with a crime. There are no police involved.

As to specifics of what is and is not alleged to have happened, I don't have access to that info so I cannot comment.

Something that had not occurred to me earlier but something that might be considered: It is possible that the school is only bringing forward these charges to a)ward off a lawsuit by the accusing child/parents or b) is only bringing forward these charges in order to challenge the definitions used by Title IX, rather than in support of a transgender child.

 

[laughing dog]

First, this is not a criminal complaint, it is an alleged violation of school or school district policy, so at this stage there is no reason for any attorney to be involved which makes me wonder about the motives of some of the parents.

On the contrary, I would say there is a very good reason to have an attorney. Having 'sexual harassment' on your permanent educational record seems a situation that very definitely warrants defending yourself.

"Permanent educational record? LOL. There is no such thing. At most, it would remain until he graduated from high school in the same district.

Calling in an attorney at this stage is an over-reaction or a publicity stunt.

Additionally, the school's letters to the families state that the families 'may have an advisor of their choice ... an attorney'.

So? No school can restrict a family from having an advisor or an attorney. This is not a criminal or civil offense. An attorney might be useful if the school found the children had broken some rule. Until then, it is over-kill.

Second, one of the mother's of these boys is quoted in the article linked by Toni as saying

“Sexual harassment, that’s rape, that’s incest, that’s inappropriate touching,” Rose Rabidoux, the mother of one of the boys, told WEAU 13 NEWS. “What did my son do? He’s a little boy. He told me that he was being charged with sexual harassment for not using the right pronouns.”

This mother does not know what sexual harassment is. And, the entire reaction is based on what her son says he is being charged with.

I'm not sure what you mean? The son is definitely being charged with sexual harassment.

I mean what I wrote. Sexual harassment includes offensive or abusive or sexual language. Furthermore, the boy says is being charged based on mispronouning but that is not the only action in the letter to the parents.

I strongly suspect there is more to this incident and story than the one-sided account from a parent.

Edited to add

If you go to the WILL website (the organization defending these boys), there is a link to the letter from the school (Letter to parents ) which includes the following statement
After being informed that a student's preferred pronouns were "they/them", (redacted names) engaged in conduct based on gender identity toward the student including incorrect pronouns and conduct that was harassing in nature".

So, it appears that it was more than just incorrect pronouns.

It depends on what actions they are alleging that are 'harassing in nature', though the original notification says the crime is 'mispronouning'.

The point is that the allegation involves more than "mispronouning".

Do I think schools can over-react? Yes. Do I think 14 year boys can be bullying assholes? Yes.

I suspect this 3 children were bullying some other child and "mispronouning" was part of their actions.

I will wait for the outcome of the investigation and a more balanced report.

 

[Metaphor]

First, this is not a criminal complaint, it is an alleged violation of school or school district policy, so at this stage there is no reason for any attorney to be involved which makes me wonder about the motives of some of the parents.

On the contrary, I would say there is a very good reason to have an attorney. Having 'sexual harassment' on your permanent educational record seems a situation that very definitely warrants defending yourself.

"Permanent educational record? LOL. There is no such thing.

Then I would blame American screenwriters for claiming there is such a thing. But of course, there is. It's a school's records of its students.

At most, it would remain until he graduated from high school in the same district.

Calling in an attorney at this stage is an over-reaction or a publicity stunt.

Perhaps for you, but I consider it neither.

Additionally, the school's letters to the families state that the families 'may have an advisor of their choice ... an attorney'.

So? No school can restrict a family from having an advisor or an attorney. This is not a criminal or civil offense. An attorney might be useful if the school found the children had broken some rule. Until then, it is over-kill.

In your opinion, it is overkill. Since the boys are the ones who have the most at stake, I think it is up to them to decide exactly how much advice they need.

Second, one of the mother's of these boys is quoted in the article linked by Toni as saying

“Sexual harassment, that’s rape, that’s incest, that’s inappropriate touching,” Rose Rabidoux, the mother of one of the boys, told WEAU 13 NEWS. “What did my son do? He’s a little boy. He told me that he was being charged with sexual harassment for not using the right pronouns.”

This mother does not know what sexual harassment is. And, the entire reaction is based on what her son says he is being charged with.

I'm not sure what you mean? The son is definitely being charged with sexual harassment.

I mean what I wrote. Sexual harassment includes offensive or abusive or sexual language. Furthermore, the boy says is being charged based on mispronouning but that is not the only action in the letter to the parents.

That is what is contained in the original charge (which I linked).

The 'other' behaviour is not described in any way, but it is only relevant if the 'mispronouning' behaviour would have been insufficient on its own to bring the charge. I suspect (since it's the only behaviour named in any way), that 'mispronouning' is the basis of the charge.

I strongly suspect there is more to this incident and story than the one-sided account from a parent.

Edited to add

If you go to the WILL website (the organization defending these boys), there is a link to the letter from the school (Letter to parents ) which includes the following statement
After being informed that a student's preferred pronouns were "they/them", (redacted names) engaged in conduct based on gender identity toward the student including incorrect pronouns and conduct that was harassing in nature".

So, it appears that it was more than just incorrect pronouns.

It depends on what actions they are alleging that are 'harassing in nature', though the original notification says the crime is 'mispronouning'.

The point is that the allegation involves more than "mispronouning".

Do I think schools can over-react? Yes. Do I think 14 year boys can be bullying assholes? Yes.

I suspect this 3 children were bullying some other child and "mispronouning" was part of their actions.

I will wait for the outcome of the investigation and a more balanced report.

 

[laughing dog]

First, this is not a criminal complaint, it is an alleged violation of school or school district policy, so at this stage there is no reason for any attorney to be involved which makes me wonder about the motives of some of the parents.

On the contrary, I would say there is a very good reason to have an attorney. Having 'sexual harassment' on your permanent educational record seems a situation that very definitely warrants defending yourself.

"Permanent educational record? LOL. There is no such thing.

Then I would blame American screenwriters for claiming there is such a thing.

"Permanent education record" was an empty threat that school personnel would make to students for years.

At most, it would remain until he graduated from high school in the same district.

Calling in an attorney at this stage is an over-reaction or a publicity stunt.

Perhaps for you, but I consider it neither.

Totally understandable given your ignorance about the US. But engaging the lawyers - who immediately went public - is a clear attempt to intimidate the school district personnel.

Additionally, the school's letters to the families state that the families 'may have an advisor of their choice ... an attorney'.

So? No school can restrict a family from having an advisor or an attorney. This is not a criminal or civil offense. An attorney might be useful if the school found the children had broken some rule. Until then, it is over-kill.

In your opinion, it is overkill. Since the boys are the ones who have the most at stake, I think it is up to them to decide exactly how much advice they need.

You think the boys made that decision?

Second, one of the mother's of these boys is quoted in the article linked by Toni as saying

“Sexual harassment, that’s rape, that’s incest, that’s inappropriate touching,” Rose Rabidoux, the mother of one of the boys, told WEAU 13 NEWS. “What did my son do? He’s a little boy. He told me that he was being charged with sexual harassment for not using the right pronouns.”

This mother does not know what sexual harassment is. And, the entire reaction is based on what her son says he is being charged with.

I'm not sure what you mean? The son is definitely being charged with sexual harassment.

I mean what I wrote. Sexual harassment includes offensive or abusive or sexual language. Furthermore, the boy says is being charged based on mispronouning but that is not the only action in the letter to the parents.

That is what is contained in the original charge (which I linked).

The 'other' behaviour is not described in any way, but it is only relevant if the 'mispronouning' behaviour would have been insufficient on its own to bring the charge. I suspect (since it's the only behaviour named in any way), that 'mispronouning' is the basis of the charge.

The "mispronouncing" is not described (there is no description on the form of the "mispronouncement"). The other behavior may be extremely relevant in its own right - your conjecture as to its relevancy reveals more about you than its urgency or relevancy.

 

[Metaphor]

First, this is not a criminal complaint, it is an alleged violation of school or school district policy, so at this stage there is no reason for any attorney to be involved which makes me wonder about the motives of some of the parents.

On the contrary, I would say there is a very good reason to have an attorney. Having 'sexual harassment' on your permanent educational record seems a situation that very definitely warrants defending yourself.

"Permanent educational record? LOL. There is no such thing.

Then I would blame American screenwriters for claiming there is such a thing.

"Permanent education record" was an empty threat that school personnel would make to students for years.

At most, it would remain until he graduated from high school in the same district.

Calling in an attorney at this stage is an over-reaction or a publicity stunt.

Perhaps for you, but I consider it neither.

Totally understandable given your ignorance about the US. But engaging the lawyers - who immediately went public - is a clear attempt to intimidate the school district personnel.

In your opinion, the lawyers were engaged to 'intimidate' the school district. I can think of a number of reasons to engage a lawyer that are not that and I would have done the same. But, even if that were the case that it was to 'intimidate' the school district, it still would not be wrong to have done so, since the stain of 'sexual harassment' is particularly blemishing and, in my opinion, 'mispronouning' is not sexual harassment and does not amount to a Title IX infringement.

Additionally, the school's letters to the families state that the families 'may have an advisor of their choice ... an attorney'.

So? No school can restrict a family from having an advisor or an attorney. This is not a criminal or civil offense. An attorney might be useful if the school found the children had broken some rule. Until then, it is over-kill.

In your opinion, it is overkill. Since the boys are the ones who have the most at stake, I think it is up to them to decide exactly how much advice they need.

You think the boys made that decision?

No, I think the parents made the decision in the best interest of their boys.

Second, one of the mother's of these boys is quoted in the article linked by Toni as saying

“Sexual harassment, that’s rape, that’s incest, that’s inappropriate touching,” Rose Rabidoux, the mother of one of the boys, told WEAU 13 NEWS. “What did my son do? He’s a little boy. He told me that he was being charged with sexual harassment for not using the right pronouns.”

This mother does not know what sexual harassment is. And, the entire reaction is based on what her son says he is being charged with.

I'm not sure what you mean? The son is definitely being charged with sexual harassment.

I mean what I wrote. Sexual harassment includes offensive or abusive or sexual language. Furthermore, the boy says is being charged based on mispronouning but that is not the only action in the letter to the parents.

That is what is contained in the original charge (which I linked).

The 'other' behaviour is not described in any way, but it is only relevant if the 'mispronouning' behaviour would have been insufficient on its own to bring the charge. I suspect (since it's the only behaviour named in any way), that 'mispronouning' is the basis of the charge.

The "mispronouncing" is not described (there is no description on the form of the "mispronouncement"). The other behavior may be extremely relevant in its own right - your conjecture as to its relevancy reveals more about you than its urgency or relevancy.

Of course it does not. Had the the more serious charge been something other than "mispronouning", it would have been described in the original accusation.

 

[ZiprHead]

Aah, defending bullies. Yay!

 

[Ford]

I've asked this question of other...right leaning posters here...but I'll ask it again.

Is there a central source for these "liberal outrage of the week" stories? Do you get an email alert with the "woke" story of the moment? Is it a "share this example of how the radical left is destroying America" thing on the socials, or do you have to subscribe to the source so you get the story that makes you pig-biting mad enough to share?

As a frozen food heir says, I'm just asking questions...

 

[laughing dog]

In your opinion, the lawyers were engaged to 'intimidate' the school district. I can think of a number of reasons to engage a lawyer that are not that and I would have done the same. But, even if that were the case that it was to 'intimidate' the school district, it still would not be wrong to have done so, since the stain of 'sexual harassment' is particularly blemishing and, in my opinion, 'mispronouning' is not sexual harassment and does not amount to a Title IX infringement.

Your opinion is not based on any knowledge about the US. There would be no "stain" attached to these children. There is no criminal or civil complaint.

We (which includes you) have no clue what the possible repercussions on these children will be if they are found to have violated some school policy. Any sanction would remain private unless the parents or children announce it to the world.



Bringing lawyers into the mix who immediately publicize the situation with deliberate incomplete information (they persist in omitting the "other behavior" aspect) is an obvious intimidation tactic.
However, since the publicity-seeking WILL is in involved, the odds are that any sanctions will be made public. It is possible that attempted intimidation backfires on the parents and these children with more severe sanctions if children are found to have violated school policy.

Of course it does not. Had the the more serious charge been something other than "mispronouning", it would have been described in the original accusation.

You assume a rational and sequential process without any evidence to support your conjectures.

 

[Metaphor]

Aah, defending bullies. Yay!

Begging the question.

 

[Metaphor]

In your opinion, the lawyers were engaged to 'intimidate' the school district. I can think of a number of reasons to engage a lawyer that are not that and I would have done the same. But, even if that were the case that it was to 'intimidate' the school district, it still would not be wrong to have done so, since the stain of 'sexual harassment' is particularly blemishing and, in my opinion, 'mispronouning' is not sexual harassment and does not amount to a Title IX infringement.

Your opinion is not based on any knowledge about the US. There would be no "stain" attached to these children. There is no criminal or civil complaint.

We (which includes you) have no clue what the possible repercussions on these children will be if they are found to have violated some school policy. Any sanction would remain private unless the parents or children announce it to the world.

The process is part of the punishment. And while I don't know the specific repercussions, I don't need to be in the US school system to know it'll be negative.

Bringing lawyers into the mix who immediately publicize the situation with deliberate incomplete information (they persist in omitting the "other behavior" aspect) is an obvious intimidation tactic.

It is obvious to you and people who think like you.

However, since the publicity-seeking WILL is in involved, the odds are that any sanctions will be made public. It is possible that attempted intimidation backfires on the parents and these children with more severe sanctions if children are found to have violated school policy.

How Machiavellian of the school, to suggest the parents may want an adviser who 'may or may not be an attorney'.

Everything about the letter to the students would make ordinary parents lawyer up. It is well justified.

Of course it does not. Had the the more serious charge been something other than "mispronouning", it would have been described in the original accusation.

You assume a rational and sequential process without any evidence to support your conjectures.

I assume that if two separate charges were against the students, the more serious charge would be mentioned.

 

[Metaphor]

I've asked this question of other...right leaning posters here...but I'll ask it again.

Is there a central source for these "liberal outrage of the week" stories?

No. It may surprise you to know that the internet is decentralised.

Do you get an email alert with the "woke" story of the moment?

No, but I'm sure I could if I wanted to, just as I'm sure there are thousands of left-wing outrage mailing lists.

Is it a "share this example of how the radical left is destroying America" thing on the socials, or do you have to subscribe to the source so you get the story that makes you pig-biting mad enough to share?

Now that I've answered your questions, do you intend to refrain from this line of questioning, or will you bring it up again in the future so that you can 'just ask questions' again?

As a frozen food heir says, I'm just asking questions...

It's evident you are just taking pot shots.