Time zones and the creation story

[James Brown]

Please also explain the relevance of Jesus referring to Himself as the Morning Star in Revelations.

The simpler explanation is that someone put words into Jesus' mouth in order to make a point.

 

[scombrid]

evolution teaches us to just make sure we fuck before we die.

Not really. Offspring have to survive to have offspring of their own and on and on. Simply fucking before death without successful replication of genes doesn't satisfy the conditions of evolution.

That successful lineage of genes in a social species generally requires more than brute force mating.

Still, evolution does make no prescriptions. It just describes what is going on biologically. We make up the stories about how that manifests in our social structures.

 

[skepticalbip]

There are also stories about talking birds. Stories told over centuries and written down, just like 'global flood.'

Like how Raven used to be white, until he stole Fire, and it burned his feathers black as he carried it to humans. This is not taught as a fact in history OR science classes. Because there's no actual evidence for it, not because any panties get twisted.

I have personally heard birds talk and also understand words.

I had a book as a child called Aesop's Fables. I only remember a couple of the 'creation' stories, but they were great. "How the tiger got it's spots" type of things. Before the story of Evolution was written, these stories satisfied children's questions while also teaching important lessons about life.... morality, fairness, consequence...

Indeed. Such stories are entertaining for children and teaches them the ethos of the particular culture. It gives them a common understanding held by that culture so they better fit in. However they can also serve to further isolate them from other cultures that hold a different ethos.

evolution teaches us to just make sure we fuck before we die.

Not. Ecolution teaches us that species change over time and with changing conditions, sometimes changing so much that they become a different species or sometimes several different species and sometimes dying out.

 

[Gun Nut]

Kind of like how gravity teaches us to jump off a cliff and die?

Evolution is a description of how the natural world works. It tells no stories, and it makes no judgements.

Certainly never claims to offer morality or fairness tales.
So I can't understand why so many idiots think they've made some telling point by 'discovering' that it doesn't do what it never said it would.

so then you DO understand that religion tells us WHY and not HOW... that's a pretty good step. well done.

 

[Gun Nut]

Why? What purpose would it serve? Most creationists do not want to get into a debate about the actual science, because most creationists do not know the science. If you want to talk about the science, start a separate thread and lay out your objections to modern evolutionary theory.

Please also explain the relevance of Jesus referring to Himself as the Morning Star in Revelations. Again, your own words, no copy and paste. If you can't fully explain this then you have no ability to argue any facts of the matter.

Why? What purpose would it serve? I am not trying to write a dissertation on the literary qualities of Biblical prose. What I am doing is pointing out some of the factual errors that creationists make. Like claiming that the planet was covered by a flood of water that covered the top of the mountains.

I expect you will "go dark".

Ironic. You should go back and look at the posting history of creationists on this board.

So, are you going to respond to what I had said in response to your post? Or defend your (apparent) claim that the flood of Noah was real, if that is what you were claiming?

Kind of like how gravity teaches us to jump off a cliff and die?

Evolution is a description of how the natural world works. It tells no stories, and it makes no judgements.

WHY??? because YOU brought it up... feel free to start a thread on it yourself. Please do... after all, it was YOU who made claims of blind following versus the scientific method... and you can't seem to describe the science, so you are guilty of your own charge.. blind following.

 

[Ford]

Science is useful...theology is pretentious garbage.

both are useful... except when science is wrong.

Science is self-correcting. When current understanding is proven incorrect, it is replaced by a new, better understanding.

Which part of the theory that opioids serve as good treatment for lower back pain is anything but completely wrong and only harmful?

Opioids are very powerful painkillers. They've become a problem because they're highly addictive and if used to excess can cause an overdose.

Which effective painkillers has theology provided for back pain?

 

[Gun Nut]

Science is self-correcting. When current understanding is proven incorrect, it is replaced by a new, better understanding.

Which part of the theory that opioids serve as good treatment for lower back pain is anything but completely wrong and only harmful?

Opioids are very powerful painkillers. They've become a problem because they're highly addictive and if used to excess can cause an overdose.

Which effective painkillers has theology provided for back pain?

you made my point: https://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2016/05/25/opioids-often-ineffective-for-low-back-pain/?_r=2


Opioids are not an effective pain management solution for lower back pain, yet are prescribed at a rate that significantly contributes to the addiction problem.

But science loyalists just blindly follow with no critical thinking.

They say that Prayer has scientifically been proven as effective as placebo, which is to say, not completely ineffective.

The article from the NY Times I linked accuses opiates of being less effective than placebo.

Therefore, Theology has proven more effective in this treatment than Science.

 

[Ford]

They say that Prayer has scientifically been proven as effective as placebo, which is to say, not completely ineffective.

Ah yes, the respected peer-reviewed medical journal "They Say."

Got a link to that publication?

 

[Max Rockatansky]

They say that Prayer has scientifically been proven as effective as placebo, which is to say, not completely ineffective.

Ah yes, the respected peer-reviewed medical journal "They Say."

Got a link to that publication?

No link, but as a student of behavioral psychology, I know the power of positive thinking, including prayer. IMHO, it's a psychosomatic phenomenon not requiring any outside forces nor have any ever been proven to exist. Why deny someone something that works?

 

[Ford]

They say that Prayer has scientifically been proven as effective as placebo, which is to say, not completely ineffective.

Ah yes, the respected peer-reviewed medical journal "They Say."

Got a link to that publication?

No link, but as a student of behavioral psychology, I know the power of positive thinking, including prayer. IMHO, it's a psychosomatic phenomenon not requiring any outside forces nor have any ever been proven to exist. Why deny someone something that works?

Ah yes, prayer and positive thinking. Who needs medicine? Just pray your cancer away.

 

[Max Rockatansky]

No link, but as a student of behavioral psychology, I know the power of positive thinking, including prayer. IMHO, it's a psychosomatic phenomenon not requiring any outside forces nor have any ever been proven to exist. Why deny someone something that works?

Ah yes, prayer and positive thinking. Who needs medicine? Just pray your cancer away.

Excellent spin and twist. Thank you.

 

[Ford]

No link, but as a student of behavioral psychology, I know the power of positive thinking, including prayer. IMHO, it's a psychosomatic phenomenon not requiring any outside forces nor have any ever been proven to exist. Why deny someone something that works?

Ah yes, prayer and positive thinking. Who needs medicine? Just pray your cancer away.

Excellent spin and twist. Thank you.

I too, can change font sizes. Praise Jesus, it's a miracle.

 

[Max Rockatansky]

Excellent spin and twist. Thank you.

I too, can change font sizes. Praise Jesus, it's a miracle.

What is your point? That you don't believe in the power of the mind on the body? That you think the "placebo effect" is magic? Please tell me. I'm curious.

 

[Ford]

Excellent spin and twist. Thank you.

I too, can change font sizes. Praise Jesus, it's a miracle.

What is your point? That you don't believe in the power of the mind on the body? That you think the "placebo effect" is magic? Please tell me. I'm curious.

Well if prayer could cure cancer we wouldn't need that pesky radiation and chemotherapy, now would we? If positive thinking was able to overcome heart disease and diabetes, we'd have saved a lot of lives by now.

The placebo effect you reference is not magic. Handing someone a sugar pill that you tell them will shrink a tumor might make them feel better in the short term, but it won't actually shrink the tumor.

 

[skepticalbip]

What is your point? That you don't believe in the power of the mind on the body? That you think the "placebo effect" is magic? Please tell me. I'm curious.

Well if prayer could cure cancer we wouldn't need that pesky radiation and chemotherapy, now would we? If positive thinking was able to overcome heart disease and diabetes, we'd have saved a lot of lives by now.

The placebo effect you reference is not magic. Handing someone a sugar pill that you tell them will shrink a tumor might make them feel better in the short term, but it won't actually shrink the tumor.

Placebos are far from a cure all but they can provide a beneficial effect:

https://www.health.harvard.edu/mental-health/the-power-of-the-placebo-effect


The power of the placebo effect

Your mind can be a powerful healing tool when given the chance. The idea that your brain can convince your body a fake treatment is the real thing — the so-called placebo effect — and thus stimulate healing has been around for millennia. Now science has found that under the right circumstances, a placebo can be just as effective as traditional treatments.

"The placebo effect is more than positive thinking — believing a treatment or procedure will work. It's about creating a stronger connection between the brain and body and how they work together," says Professor Ted Kaptchuk of Harvard-affiliated Beth Israel Deaconess Medical Center, whose research focuses on the placebo effect.

 

[Keith&Co.]

They say that Prayer has scientifically been proven as effective as placebo, which is to say, not completely ineffective.

Ah yes, the respected peer-reviewed medical journal "They Say."

Got a link to that publication?

Man, that was a jump backwards, wasn't it?
From claiming that religion is as useful as science, with a gratuitous attack on opiods, to throwing out a placebo effect?

Wow.

I mean, medical science has figured out how to vaccinate against polio, make clones, transplant organs, while medical religion is in the same place it was when Romans sacrificed a wren to Zeus for the vapors...

 

[Max Rockatansky]

Placebos are far from a cure all but they can provide a beneficial effect:

https://www.health.harvard.edu/mental-health/the-power-of-the-placebo-effect


The power of the placebo effect

Your mind can be a powerful healing tool when given the chance. The idea that your brain can convince your body a fake treatment is the real thing — the so-called placebo effect — and thus stimulate healing has been around for millennia. Now science has found that under the right circumstances, a placebo can be just as effective as traditional treatments.

"The placebo effect is more than positive thinking — believing a treatment or procedure will work. It's about creating a stronger connection between the brain and body and how they work together," says Professor Ted Kaptchuk of Harvard-affiliated Beth Israel Deaconess Medical Center, whose research focuses on the placebo effect.

Agreed on the placebo effect. There is a relation between the mind and the body.

Additionally, meditation (including prayer) have beneficial health effects. Not because of any outside force or supernatural reason, but simply because it helps calm the mind and helps it to focus.

https://www.nbcnews.com/better/health/your-brain-prayer-meditation-ncna812376
"Praying involves the deeper parts of the brain: the medial prefrontal cortex and the posterior cingulate cortex — the mid-front and back portions," says Dr. Spiegel, adding that this can be seen through magnetic image resonance (MRI), which render detailed anatomical pictures. "These parts of the brain are involved in self-reflection and self-soothing."


https://www.foodmatters.com/article/7-health-benefits-of-meditation
Now the hard science has caught up: a comprehensive scientific study showing that deep relaxation changes our bodies on a genetic level has just been published. What researchers at Harvard Medical School discovered is that, in long-term practitioners of relaxation methods such as yoga and meditation, far more ''disease-fighting genes'' were active, compared to those who practised no form of relaxation.


https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/...ge-your-brain/201305/is-your-brain-meditation
Essentially, the science “proves” what we know to be true from the actual experience of meditating. What the data demonstrate is that meditation facilitates strengthening the Assessment Center, weakening the unhelpful aspects of the Me Center (that can cause you to take things personally), strengthening the helpful parts of the Me Center (involved with empathy and understanding others) and changing the connections to/from the bodily sensation/fear centers such that you experience sensations in a less reactive, more balanced and holistic way. In a very real way, you literally are changing your brain for the better when you meditate.

 

[Gun Nut]

They say that Prayer has scientifically been proven as effective as placebo, which is to say, not completely ineffective.

Ah yes, the respected peer-reviewed medical journal "They Say."

Got a link to that publication?

No link, but as a student of behavioral psychology, I know the power of positive thinking, including prayer. IMHO, it's a psychosomatic phenomenon not requiring any outside forces nor have any ever been proven to exist. Why deny someone something that works?

They ignore and deny what science reveals about their failed philosophy of atheism, then shift the goalposts.

 

[Gun Nut]

No link, but as a student of behavioral psychology, I know the power of positive thinking, including prayer. IMHO, it's a psychosomatic phenomenon not requiring any outside forces nor have any ever been proven to exist. Why deny someone something that works?

Ah yes, prayer and positive thinking. Who needs medicine? Just pray your cancer away.

ah... here's that shifting of the goalposts... we were talking about lower back pain and opiods for pain management... and when science proves prayer is more effective, the goalposts are shifted from managing back pain to curing cancer (which science hasn't done EITHER).. so pretty dump shifting at that.

 

[Keith&Co.]

No link, but as a student of behavioral psychology, I know the power of positive thinking, including prayer.

Am I the only one that finds it funny, in a contention between the efficacy of prayer and science, the power of prayer is confirmed by science?

Because science IS the means of finding things out. Not prayer.