Trump isn't even inaugurated yet ...

[whichphilosophy]

Though the Embargo did not stop others from trading with Cuba, since 1992 the UN passed resolutions condemning the effect of the Embargo as a violation of International Law. In 2014 188 condemned the embargo out of 193 member nations The US and Israel voted against this with some other countries abstaining.

What was UN's opinion on Castro's thugs usurping power or on them stealing property?

It's not all one way. When Cuba started processing Russian crude oil, the US ordered its US companies not to cooperate. That was one excuse to take over US oil interests. Meanwhile talks are underway to hopefully resolve this. In many cases families lost house and possessions. Castro also confiscated from the wealthy Cubans (including hs mother's property. Hopefully the parties are looking forward to the future to resolve this now that diplomatic relations.

 

[Ford]

They didn't suffer nearly as much at Castro's hands as they did from the economic embargo the US imposed.

Sorry, on this forum trade is bad and the embargo allowed Cuba to keep its jobs from coming to the US and/or it kept them from being exploited by US imperiislists.

If Castro wanted it gone he sure didn't act like it so he must have known this.

- - - Updated - - -

They didn't suffer nearly as much at Castro's hands as they did from the economic embargo the US imposed.

Forget it. Derec thinks the problem with Cuba is that the US just didn't invade hard enough.

Well, yeah if you compare their economy to South Korea, Germany or Vietnam that seems to be the case.

You know Vietnam is still officially communist, right?


Like China, they shifted towards a market-based economy once the iron curtain fell. The US normalized relations with them over 20 years ago. Cuba's economy (and the country as a whole) would be better off today if we'd dropped the embargo a long time ago when the Cold War ended.

 

[repoman]

I barely skimmed the OP, this is a shameless bait thread.

 

[whichphilosophy]

Sorry, on this forum trade is bad and the embargo allowed Cuba to keep its jobs from coming to the US and/or it kept them from being exploited by US imperiislists.

If Castro wanted it gone he sure didn't act like it so he must have known this.

- - - Updated - - -

They didn't suffer nearly as much at Castro's hands as they did from the economic embargo the US imposed.

Forget it. Derec thinks the problem with Cuba is that the US just didn't invade hard enough.

Well, yeah if you compare their economy to South Korea, Germany or Vietnam that seems to be the case.

You know Vietnam is still officially communist, right?


Like China, they shifted towards a market-based economy once the iron curtain fell. The US normalized relations with them over 20 years ago. Cuba's economy (and the country as a whole) would be better off today if we'd dropped the embargo a long time ago when the Cold War ended.

This is true. If the US and Cuba had been on friendlier terms, I'm sure some of the US properties (houses etc) would even have been returned (so they could return and spend money in the economy. Then like China and Vietnam it is almost certain Cuba would have modernized and also adopted a mixed economy.

 

[dismal]

Sorry, on this forum trade is bad and the embargo allowed Cuba to keep its jobs from coming to the US and/or it kept them from being exploited by US imperiislists.

If Castro wanted it gone he sure didn't act like it so he must have known this.

- - - Updated - - -

They didn't suffer nearly as much at Castro's hands as they did from the economic embargo the US imposed.

Forget it. Derec thinks the problem with Cuba is that the US just didn't invade hard enough.

Well, yeah if you compare their economy to South Korea, Germany or Vietnam that seems to be the case.

You know Vietnam is still officially communist, right?


Like China, they shifted towards a market-based economy once the iron curtain fell. The US normalized relations with them over 20 years ago. Cuba's economy (and the country as a whole) would be better off today if we'd dropped the embargo a long time ago when the Cold War ended.

I agree Cuba would have been better off with trade. Too bad Fidel didn't and condemned his people to misery all those years.

 

[fromderinside]

If this is true, it is a failure for not just Trump, but Obama and every President since Ike.

Castro won. The greatest superpower the world has ever known brought all their power to bear on a tiny island nation for over 50 years, and instead of being forcibly removed from office, Fidel stepped down of his own accord and died in his own country.

If only Bay of Pigs had been successful, Cuban people could have been spared more than 50 years (and counting) of suffering and misery.

BS operation carried out by deluded gambling messianic tribalists meant to fail. IOW it had no chance of ever succeeding.

 

[repoman]

If only Bay of Pigs had been successful, Cuban people could have been spared more than 50 years (and counting) of suffering and misery.

BS operation carried out by deluded gambling messianic tribalists meant to fail. IOW it had no chance of ever succeeding.

If the phrase "go big or go home" means anything, the Bay of Pigs is the textbook example of it.

 

[Ford]

Sorry, on this forum trade is bad and the embargo allowed Cuba to keep its jobs from coming to the US and/or it kept them from being exploited by US imperiislists.

If Castro wanted it gone he sure didn't act like it so he must have known this.

- - - Updated - - -

They didn't suffer nearly as much at Castro's hands as they did from the economic embargo the US imposed.

Forget it. Derec thinks the problem with Cuba is that the US just didn't invade hard enough.

Well, yeah if you compare their economy to South Korea, Germany or Vietnam that seems to be the case.

You know Vietnam is still officially communist, right?


Like China, they shifted towards a market-based economy once the iron curtain fell. The US normalized relations with them over 20 years ago. Cuba's economy (and the country as a whole) would be better off today if we'd dropped the embargo a long time ago when the Cold War ended.

I agree Cuba would have been better off with trade. Too bad Fidel didn't and condemned his people to misery all those years.

You know trade goes two ways, right? The US refused to drop the embargo even after it was painfully obvious it didn't work. If we'd reached out - like we did with China, Vietnam, and other communist countries - I'm reasonably certain that Fidel would have welcomed a thaw in relations just like Raul has done.

 

[dismal]

Sorry, on this forum trade is bad and the embargo allowed Cuba to keep its jobs from coming to the US and/or it kept them from being exploited by US imperiislists.

If Castro wanted it gone he sure didn't act like it so he must have known this.

- - - Updated - - -

They didn't suffer nearly as much at Castro's hands as they did from the economic embargo the US imposed.

Forget it. Derec thinks the problem with Cuba is that the US just didn't invade hard enough.

Well, yeah if you compare their economy to South Korea, Germany or Vietnam that seems to be the case.

You know Vietnam is still officially communist, right?


Like China, they shifted towards a market-based economy once the iron curtain fell. The US normalized relations with them over 20 years ago. Cuba's economy (and the country as a whole) would be better off today if we'd dropped the embargo a long time ago when the Cold War ended.

I agree Cuba would have been better off with trade. Too bad Fidel didn't and condemned his people to misery all those years.

You know trade goes two ways, right? The US refused to drop the embargo even after it was painfully obvious it didn't work. If we'd reached out - like we did with China, Vietnam, and other communist countries - I'm reasonably certain that Fidel would have welcomed a thaw in relations just like Raul has done.

I think the US did just fine without being able to trade with Cuba. Cuba apparently suffered mightily because of it. If Cuba needed trade with the US so bad they should have voted Castro out, I guess, as he was the main obstacle.

 

[skepticalbip]

Sorry, on this forum trade is bad and the embargo allowed Cuba to keep its jobs from coming to the US and/or it kept them from being exploited by US imperiislists.

If Castro wanted it gone he sure didn't act like it so he must have known this.

- - - Updated - - -

They didn't suffer nearly as much at Castro's hands as they did from the economic embargo the US imposed.

Forget it. Derec thinks the problem with Cuba is that the US just didn't invade hard enough.

Well, yeah if you compare their economy to South Korea, Germany or Vietnam that seems to be the case.

You know Vietnam is still officially communist, right?


Like China, they shifted towards a market-based economy once the iron curtain fell. The US normalized relations with them over 20 years ago. Cuba's economy (and the country as a whole) would be better off today if we'd dropped the embargo a long time ago when the Cold War ended.

I agree Cuba would have been better off with trade. Too bad Fidel didn't and condemned his people to misery all those years.

You know trade goes two ways, right? The US refused to drop the embargo even after it was painfully obvious it didn't work. If we'd reached out - like we did with China, Vietnam, and other communist countries - I'm reasonably certain that Fidel would have welcomed a thaw in relations just like Raul has done.

I think the US did just fine without being able to trade with Cuba. Cuba apparently suffered mightily because of it. If Cuba needed trade with the US so bad they should have voted Castro out, I guess, as he was the main obstacle.

I can't believe that Cuba not being able to trade with the US is what caused their economic problems. It is only what the Cuban government blamed their problems on to divert responsibility. Cuba was trading with the rest of the world - they weren't isolated. It was just that their top down centrally controlled economy was incapable of producing more value than the country consumed so for quite a while depended on aid from Russia or China just for existence. Before the revolution, Cuba was a net exporter and a fairly prosperous country and, even though there was wealth disparity, the poor were better off.

 

[dismal]

Sorry, on this forum trade is bad and the embargo allowed Cuba to keep its jobs from coming to the US and/or it kept them from being exploited by US imperiislists.

If Castro wanted it gone he sure didn't act like it so he must have known this.

- - - Updated - - -

They didn't suffer nearly as much at Castro's hands as they did from the economic embargo the US imposed.

Forget it. Derec thinks the problem with Cuba is that the US just didn't invade hard enough.

Well, yeah if you compare their economy to South Korea, Germany or Vietnam that seems to be the case.

You know Vietnam is still officially communist, right?


Like China, they shifted towards a market-based economy once the iron curtain fell. The US normalized relations with them over 20 years ago. Cuba's economy (and the country as a whole) would be better off today if we'd dropped the embargo a long time ago when the Cold War ended.

I agree Cuba would have been better off with trade. Too bad Fidel didn't and condemned his people to misery all those years.

You know trade goes two ways, right? The US refused to drop the embargo even after it was painfully obvious it didn't work. If we'd reached out - like we did with China, Vietnam, and other communist countries - I'm reasonably certain that Fidel would have welcomed a thaw in relations just like Raul has done.

I think the US did just fine without being able to trade with Cuba. Cuba apparently suffered mightily because of it. If Cuba needed trade with the US so bad they should have voted Castro out, I guess, as he was the main obstacle.

I can't believe that Cuba not being able to trade with the US is what caused their economic problems. It is only what the Cuban government blamed their problems on. Cuba was trading with the rest of the world - they weren't isolated. It was just that their top down centrally controlled economy was incapable of producing more value than the country consumed so for quite a while depended on aid from Russia or China just for existence. Before the revolution, Cuba was a net exporter and a fairly prosperous country and, even though there was wealth disparity, the poor were better off.

Well, I'm trying to work within the commonly accepted delusions of the left on Cuba here.

They have that special double secret reverse Marxist-Leninist proviso about Cuba wherein trade with all the greedy exploitative imperialist nations is necessary for socialism to thrive. Plus the lack of trade is not Castro's fault even though he worked hard to avoid normalizing trade relations with the US across 7 or 8 different Presidents.

 

[Playball40]

If this is true, it is a failure for not just Trump, but Obama and every President since Ike.

Castro won. The greatest superpower the world has ever known brought all their power to bear on a tiny island nation for over 50 years, and instead of being forcibly removed from office, Fidel stepped down of his own accord and died in his own country.

If only Bay of Pigs had been successful, Cuban people could have been spared more than 50 years (and counting) of suffering and misery.

Because Cubans didn't suffer before Castro? Or just different Cubans?

 

[Playball40]

Pre-Castro Cuba looked like a pretty cool place, especially Havana. Yes, they needed reforms but Castro and his comutards made it much, much worse. Story of communist revolutions really.

If you were an American gambler, or an oil company.

Or a relative of Batista.

 

[Ford]

Sorry, on this forum trade is bad and the embargo allowed Cuba to keep its jobs from coming to the US and/or it kept them from being exploited by US imperiislists.

If Castro wanted it gone he sure didn't act like it so he must have known this.

- - - Updated - - -

They didn't suffer nearly as much at Castro's hands as they did from the economic embargo the US imposed.

Forget it. Derec thinks the problem with Cuba is that the US just didn't invade hard enough.

Well, yeah if you compare their economy to South Korea, Germany or Vietnam that seems to be the case.

You know Vietnam is still officially communist, right?


Like China, they shifted towards a market-based economy once the iron curtain fell. The US normalized relations with them over 20 years ago. Cuba's economy (and the country as a whole) would be better off today if we'd dropped the embargo a long time ago when the Cold War ended.

I agree Cuba would have been better off with trade. Too bad Fidel didn't and condemned his people to misery all those years.

You know trade goes two ways, right? The US refused to drop the embargo even after it was painfully obvious it didn't work. If we'd reached out - like we did with China, Vietnam, and other communist countries - I'm reasonably certain that Fidel would have welcomed a thaw in relations just like Raul has done.

I think the US did just fine without being able to trade with Cuba. Cuba apparently suffered mightily because of it. If Cuba needed trade with the US so bad they should have voted Castro out, I guess, as he was the main obstacle.

This is the sort of backward thinking that kept the embargo in place for a generation after communism collapsed worldwide.

The embargo was designed to punish Cuba. To make them suffer enough so that they'd rise up and overthrow Castro. It failed spectacularly.

And of course the US gets along just fine without being able to trade with Cuba, but the point of the embargo from the US side was never about economics. It was a decades long political temper tantrum. Had we lifted the embargo and normalized relations after the end of the Cold War, we wouldn't have gotten any richer, but the Cuban people would be much better off now. We tried to affect change in Cuba by making the people suffer. It didn't work, and we should have changed our approach. Not for our sake, but for theirs.

 

[dismal]

This is the sort of backward thinking that kept the embargo in place for a generation after communism collapsed worldwide.

The embargo was designed to punish Cuba. To make them suffer enough so that they'd rise up and overthrow Castro. It failed spectacularly.

And of course the US gets along just fine without being able to trade with Cuba, but the point of the embargo from the US side was never about economics. It was a decades long political temper tantrum. Had we lifted the embargo and normalized relations after the end of the Cold War, we wouldn't have gotten any richer, but the Cuban people would be much better off now. We tried to affect change in Cuba by making the people suffer. It didn't work, and we should have changed our approach. Not for our sake, but for theirs.

You mean, of course, that Fidel should have changed his tactics when he saw the misery his polices were causing his people.

Or, the Cuban people should have elected someone more interested in their well-being.

 

[Ford]

This is the sort of backward thinking that kept the embargo in place for a generation after communism collapsed worldwide.

The embargo was designed to punish Cuba. To make them suffer enough so that they'd rise up and overthrow Castro. It failed spectacularly.

And of course the US gets along just fine without being able to trade with Cuba, but the point of the embargo from the US side was never about economics. It was a decades long political temper tantrum. Had we lifted the embargo and normalized relations after the end of the Cold War, we wouldn't have gotten any richer, but the Cuban people would be much better off now. We tried to affect change in Cuba by making the people suffer. It didn't work, and we should have changed our approach. Not for our sake, but for theirs.

You mean, of course, that Fidel should have changed his tactics when he saw the misery his polices were causing his people.

Or, the Cuban people should have elected someone more interested in their well-being.

Or maybe we should have changed our tactics, which (again) have utterly failed. That's the point you seem to deliberately keep missing. You honestly believe that the embargo was a smashing success and should continue on until those pesky Cubans finally learn their lesson and do what the US right wing wants them to do.

 

[laughing dog]

I find this thread fascinating for a number of reasons.

First, Castro's domestic policies obviously failed to improve the long run standard of living of ordinary Cubans.
Second, that there is nothing inconsistent with the idea that while Castro's policies caused Cuban economic woes, the embargo exacerbated the effects of those woes.
Third, the embargo clearly hardened Castro's stance against the USA.
Fourth, the usual cheerleaders for free trade seem unable to appreciate that the embargo had to have some negative effect on the USA.
Fifth, Fidel Castro has been largely irrelevant to Cuban policy making for at least a couple of years.

 

[dismal]

You mean, of course, that Fidel should have changed his tactics when he saw the misery his polices were causing his people.

Or, the Cuban people should have elected someone more interested in their well-being.

Or maybe we should have changed our tactics, which (again) have utterly failed. That's the point you seem to deliberately keep missing. You honestly believe that the embargo was a smashing success and should continue on until those pesky Cubans finally learn their lesson and do what the US right wing wants them to do.

If the impact on Cuban people was devastating and the impact on the US people was "meh, whatever" then it seems the burden would fall mostly on Castro.

Vietnam was able to fight an actual shooting war with the US that ended 15 years after Castro took power and has had trade relations for 20 years now.

 

[skepticalbip]

Second, that there is nothing inconsistent with the idea that while Castro's policies caused Cuban economic woes, the embargo exacerbated the effects of those woes.

How so?

Cuba traded with any country it wished anywhere in the world except the US and did trade with many of them. Your assertion seems to be that only trade with the US can keep the people of other countries from falling into a miserable state.

 

[Ford]

Or maybe we should have changed our tactics, which (again) have utterly failed. That's the point you seem to deliberately keep missing. You honestly believe that the embargo was a smashing success and should continue on until those pesky Cubans finally learn their lesson and do what the US right wing wants them to do.

If the impact on Cuban people was devastating and the impact on the US people was "meh, whatever" then it seems the burden would fall mostly on Castro.

Vietnam was able to fight an actual shooting war with the US that ended 15 years after Castro took power and has had trade relations for 20 years now.

The US began taking steps towards normalizing relations with Vietnam back during the first Bush Presidency. The US lifted the travel ban in 1991. Eased trade restrictions in 1992. Clinton continued this effort, and by 1994 (with bipartisan support) he lifted the trade embargo. Senators Kerry and McCain (both Vietnam veterans) pushed Clinton further, and in 1995 the US normalized relations with Vietnam.

We did not demand their leader step down. We did not demand they change their government. Vietnam is still a one-party socialist state. Still run by the Communist Party of Vietnam. Yet we have full and open trade relations with them. US tourists can visit Vietnam. US businesses can operate in Vietnam. Despite the war, America is viewed favorably by an overwhelming majority of Vietnamese.

And yet here you are insisting that we can never normalize relations with Cuba so long as a Castro is left alive?