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UC San Diego - New Study Finds Minimum Wage Reduces Employment

Is this supposed some sort of universal truth? The final word that puts to bed the argument? Or is this a single study, currently under scrutiny, with a plethora of studies that came before it that say the opposite?
 
Is this supposed some sort of universal truth? The final word that puts to bed the argument? Or is this a single study, currently under scrutiny, with a plethora of studies that came before it that say the opposite?

Yes. This is the final word as it proves that the Great Recession had no effect on the minimum wage workers, it was raising the minimum wage that caused the Great Recession, not the banks. Do not blame the banks.
 
Once again, I must point out that it is not supply and demand that increases unemployment in neoclassical, mainstream economics when wages go up. That makes no sense at all in any economics.

Employers hire workers to increase their production of goods or services. If wages go up it makes no sense for employers to lay off workers because not only will the employer see a reduced profit from the increased costs due to the wage increase for the workers that they retain, they will lose the profits and the fixed cost coverage from the lower production due to reduced workforce. They will see lower revenue and lower profits than if they had kept the workers.

You really don't have this right.

Let's assume that ex-ante economy-wide all firms have hired just enough people to maximize profits. In some cases this will involve paying someone, say $5 per hour whose marginal contribution is $5.50.

Now you pass a law raising the minimum wage to $10. At the margin there will be several negative impacts on demand for unskilled labor. First, all the people who have a marginal contribution to profit of less than $10 are immediately kaput unless prices can be raised enough to maintain a positive marginal contribution to profit at the new labor rate. Second, at the margin possible substitutes for unskilled labor become more attractive whether they be automation or hiring skilled people who are now relatively cheaper. Third, businesses that employ large amounts of unskilled labor will raise prices causing demand for their products to fall, causing these industries to hire fewer people.

You declare that what I said is not right and then ignore what I said, not giving me the courtesy of pointing out why. I will provide you with an example of what I mean.

Your explanation has a few problems. They are, in no particular order,

1) You say that owners had maximized profits ex ante. This is means to me that they have set their prices to make the most profit that they can and maintain a sales volume that utilizes nearly all of their production capacity, giving them them the best chance to cover all of their fixed costs. Then the paternal government decides to destroy the economy by raising the minimum wage. Suddenly in your explanation the owners are no longer able to maximize their profits. They do everything wrong, they lay off workers and they raise their prices. They reduce their ability to produce products and they reduce the demand for the products, reducing their sales volume. Both actions reduce their ability to cover their fixed costs reducing their profits below the maximum that they could be making. Yet you don't explain why they would be so stupid. Why are they able to maximize their profits before the minimum wage increase and unable to do it afterward?

2) Maximizing their profits before the wage increase means that they have some control over price. The theory of marginal productivity, which you go on to offer in your explanation, depends on supply and demand setting price. You can't have it both ways.

3) Marginal productivity is a seriously flawed theory. There is nothing in it which would limit the higher unemployment to just an increase in the minimum wage mandated by the government. According to the theory any wage increase would result in an increase in costs and the necessity of laying off workers. In fact any cost increasedfor raw materials, rent, electricity, etc. would result in less employment. That obviously doesn't happen.

4) This is a thread about higher unemployment resulting from a minimum wage increase. I explained why this doesn't happen, because the maximum profit still would be to sell the same number of products at the same price as before. You presented an explanation that assumes that an increase in the minimum wage will result in higher unemployment and higher prices as givens. And then you leave it to us to imagine the problems that would result from the lower employment and the lower demand.

5) Wow, a third fallacious argument, the dark specter of automation, which naturally you believe haunts the very lowest paid workers in the economy, which in your view would be the first jobs to be automated. Yes, why automate the higher paid jobs when the ROI of automating the lowest paid jobs is available?

Increased wages lower profits. I suspect that this is the reason that so many fallacious arguments exist against raising wages. The profit takers won't more profits without having to work for them. Investing in real production facilities is risky, hard work. It is much easier to have the government suppress wages to increase profits. It is unfortunately bad for the economy, though. We need those people to invest in production facilities in the US.

I don't think that the desire to make a large amount of easy profits by suppressing wages would be very convincing, even on Fox News.

Over the last thirty five years corporate profits have doubled to ≈ 11% of GDP and wages have dropped by the same percentage that profits have decreased. Increased profits result from reduced wages.

That bastion of supply side, neoclassical economics, the Congressional Budget Office, estimates that increasing the minimum wage slowly over three years to $10.10 an hour will increase wages by 19 billion dollars a year and will decrease profits by 17 billion dollars a year, the two billion dollar difference resulting from the increased demand that the extra 19 billion dollars in wages will create. Increased wages decrease profits.
 
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You declare that what I said is not right and then ignore what I said, not giving me the courtesy of pointing out why. I will provide you with an example of what I mean.

OK, I will painstakingly explain to you where you are wrong.

1) You say that owners had maximized profits ex ante.

1) I say they are attempting to maximize profit ex-ante. They will also do so ex-post. They will do this by hiring workers that provide a positive marginal contribution to profit. If I estimate hiring Person X will increase profit by $6 I will hire them if the wage I must pay them is $5.50. I will not hire them if the wage I must pay then is $6.50. I do not say any of that other dreck you attribute to me. If you want to have a productive discussion please direct your comments to things I actually do say. Don't make up things I don't.

Why are they able to maximize their profits before the minimum wage increase and unable to do it afterward?

As previously mentioned they do attempt to maximize profits after the minimum wage is increased. Specifically they do this by firing all the people who now have a marginal contribution that is negative thanks to the new higher minimum wage and/or who are now more expensive than the latest robot, etc.

2) Maximizing their profits before the wage increase means that they have some control over price. The theory of marginal productivity, which you go on to offer in your explanation, depends on supply and demand setting price. You can't have it both ways.

No idea what this point is. I agree supply and demand and demand are functions of price. Price fluctuates to equilibrate supply and demand. This applies to unskilled labor and everything else. If you imagine I have argued otherwise it's on you, not me.

3) Marginal productivity is a seriously flawed theory. There is nothing in it which would limit the higher unemployment to just an increase in the minimum wage mandated by the government. According to the theory any wage increase would result in an increase in costs and the necessity of laying off workers. In fact any cost increased for raw materials, rent, electricity, etc. would result in less employment. That obviously doesn't happen.

No idea what you mean here either. One would have to be a complete moron to think all workers contribute some fixed amount to profit. Of course they contribute different amounts based on a variety of things, including simply, directly, and relevantly in this case, their wage. What sort of lunacy is required to think a worker doing the same job contributes the same to profit regardless of whether his wage is $5 or $500 per hour? Hint: try opening a store and making a profit paying your retail clerks $50,000 per hour. Then try $10 and let me know which one results in higher profit.

4) This is a thread about higher unemployment resulting from a minimum wage increase. I explained why this doesn't happen, because the maximum profit still would be to sell the same number of products at the same price as before. You presented an explanation that assumes that an increase in the minimum wage will result in higher unemployment and higher prices as givens. And then you leave it to us to imagine the problems that would result from the lower employment and the lower demand.

And I explained that you are wrong.

5) Wow, a third fallacious argument, the dark specter of automation, which naturally you believe haunts the very lowest paid workers in the economy, which in your view would be the first jobs to be automated. Yes, why automate the higher paid jobs when the ROI of automating the lowest paid jobs is available?

So are you arguing that automation doesn't exist? Or are you arguing that a profit seeking enterprise does not base it's automation decisions based on how much cost can be saved? Or are you arguing that increasing wages does not increase the amount of cost that can be saved by automation? All seem absurd.
 
Few comments I think dismal did not address properly...

3) Marginal productivity is a seriously flawed theory. There is nothing in it which would limit the higher unemployment to just an increase in the minimum wage mandated by the government. According to the theory any wage increase would result in an increase in costs and the necessity of laying off workers. In fact any cost increasedfor raw materials, rent, electricity, etc. would result in less employment. That obviously doesn't happen.
It does happen. Say you are making a widget that costs $10 and you usually sell 100.000 in a month. If your suppliers increase their prices of raw materials, for example, and now you have to raise your price to $20, some of your customers will decide against buying the widget and you might sell only 90.000 of them. So suddenly you don't need 10% of your work force.

5) Wow, a third fallacious argument, the dark specter of automation, which naturally you believe haunts the very lowest paid workers in the economy, which in your view would be the first jobs to be automated. Yes, why automate the higher paid jobs when the ROI of automating the lowest paid jobs is available?
There is no contradiction. If higher paying jobs are going to be automated first due to higher ROI, which they will, then raising the minimum wage would of course increase the risk of those minimum wage jobs being automated.
 
You really don't have this right.

Let's assume that ex-ante economy-wide all firms have hired just enough people to maximize profits. In some cases this will involve paying someone, say $5 per hour whose marginal contribution is $5.50.

Now you pass a law raising the minimum wage to $10. At the margin there will be several negative impacts on demand for unskilled labor. First, all the people who have a marginal contribution to profit of less than $10 are immediately kaput unless prices can be raised enough to maintain a positive marginal contribution to profit at the new labor rate. Second, at the margin possible substitutes for unskilled labor become more attractive whether they be automation or hiring skilled people who are now relatively cheaper. Third, businesses that employ large amounts of unskilled labor will raise prices causing demand for their products to fall, causing these industries to hire fewer people.

You declare that what I said is not right and then ignore what I said, not giving me the courtesy of pointing out why. I will provide you with an example of what I mean.

Your explanation has a few problems. They are, in no particular order,

1) You say that owners had maximized profits ex ante. This is means to me that they have set their prices to make the most profit that they can and maintain a sales volume that utilizes nearly all of their production capacity, giving them them the best chance to cover all of their fixed costs. Then the paternal government decides to destroy the economy by raising the minimum wage. Suddenly in your explanation the owners are no longer able to maximize their profits. They do everything wrong, they lay off workers and they raise their prices. They reduce their ability to produce products and they reduce the demand for the products, reducing their sales volume. Both actions reduce their ability to cover their fixed costs reducing their profits below the maximum that they could be making. Yet you don't explain why they would be so stupid. Why are they able to maximize their profits before the minimum wage increase and unable to do it afterward?

They are still able to maximize their profits--by shedding the tasks that no longer are profitable.

3) Marginal productivity is a seriously flawed theory. There is nothing in it which would limit the higher unemployment to just an increase in the minimum wage mandated by the government. According to the theory any wage increase would result in an increase in costs and the necessity of laying off workers. In fact any cost increasedfor raw materials, rent, electricity, etc. would result in less employment. That obviously doesn't happen.

The thing is an increase in the cost of materials generally means it's something the business can't shed and thus it shows up totally as increased prices of what they sell. Labor cost increases are much more likely to raise the cost of something the business can do with less of.

4) This is a thread about higher unemployment resulting from a minimum wage increase. I explained why this doesn't happen, because the maximum profit still would be to sell the same number of products at the same price as before. You presented an explanation that assumes that an increase in the minimum wage will result in higher unemployment and higher prices as givens. And then you leave it to us to imagine the problems that would result from the lower employment and the lower demand.

That doesn't make your explanation right. Lets say I make widgets for $9 each, sell them for $10. Labor is half my cost. Labor goes up 10%. Now it costs me $9.50 to make that widget, the 10% increase in labor costs translated into a 50% decline in profits. I know that a 5% increase in price translates into a 40% drop in sales so I held my price at $10 before (150% profit * 60% sales = 90% of the original profit.) Now, though, that price increase doubles my profit for a net change of +20%. I'm making less than I was but more than if I didn't raise my price. After all the ripples settle I'll be selling my widgets for $11 with cost of $9.90 and the only people that benefitted will be debtors who get to pay their debts with inflated dollars. Everyone will have been hurt by the economic disruptions, though.

5) Wow, a third fallacious argument, the dark specter of automation, which naturally you believe haunts the very lowest paid workers in the economy, which in your view would be the first jobs to be automated. Yes, why automate the higher paid jobs when the ROI of automating the lowest paid jobs is available?

The low end jobs are most prone to automation because they require less judgment on the part of humans.
 
4) This is a thread about higher unemployment resulting from a minimum wage increase. I explained why this doesn't happen, because the maximum profit still would be to sell the same number of products at the same price as before. You presented an explanation that assumes that an increase in the minimum wage will result in higher unemployment and higher prices as givens. And then you leave it to us to imagine the problems that would result from the lower employment and the lower demand.

That doesn't make your explanation right. Lets say I make widgets for $9 each, sell them for $10. Labor is half my cost. Labor goes up 10%. Now it costs me $9.50 to make that widget, the 10% increase in labor costs translated into a 50% decline in profits. I know that a 5% increase in price translates into a 40% drop in sales so I held my price at $10 before (150% profit * 60% sales = 90% of the original profit.) Now, though, that price increase doubles my profit for a net change of +20%. I'm making less than I was but more than if I didn't raise my price. After all the ripples settle I'll be selling my widgets for $11 with cost of $9.90 and the only people that benefitted will be debtors who get to pay their debts with inflated dollars. Everyone will have been hurt by the economic disruptions, though.

Nah, if you up your price 5% and sales drop 40%, you'd be getting a little over 60% of your previous profit, not 90%. Still better than 50% ..BUT you're still not maximising profits. You now have 40% idle capacity and a 40% hole in the market of consumers willing to buy widgets at some price between $10.00 and $10.49. Even at the reduced margins that's still additional profit. If you don't do it, a competitor will and he'll gain the market share you lose too. Unless costs are driven over or right up to revenue, it doesn't make sense to cut existing production.
 
Let's assume that ex-ante economy-wide all firms have hired just enough people to maximize profits. In some cases this will involve paying someone, say $5 per hour whose marginal contribution is $5.50.

Now you pass a law raising the minimum wage to $10. At the margin there will be several negative impacts on demand for unskilled labor. First, all the people who have a marginal contribution to profit of less than $10 are immediately kaput unless prices can be raised enough to maintain a positive marginal contribution to profit at the new labor rate.
Which is nothing like what real firms do. They pay standardised amounts for standardised tasks with rational division of labour and price at cost-plus. They neither know nor care what the marginal contribution of a given worker is - a concept which barely means anything under modern production methods anyway. Either they need widget-tappers, burger-flippers, whatever, or they do not. They can't dispense with some cog in the production process or they have nil product and nil revenue. Neither do they hire extraneous labour just because it's cheap.

Marginalism, as one factory owner described it when first propounded, is "the product of the itching imaginations of uninformed and inexperienced arm-chair theorisers."

Now certainly, a MW hike might push costs over revenue. That means the firm and its product is marginal, not the last worker hired. And if that MW hike lifts employees out of welfare dependency, then that firm was welfare-dependent regardless of who the intended welfare recipient was.

Second, at the margin possible substitutes for unskilled labor become more attractive whether they be automation or hiring skilled people who are now relatively cheaper. Third, businesses that employ large amounts of unskilled labor will raise prices causing demand for their products to fall, causing these industries to hire fewer people.
As indeed would firms employing large amounts of skilled labour raising prices. Bugger all to do with marginal contribution of the least skilled worker, though.
 
Now let's suppose that I'm your competitor, who has always taken that hit, and paid my workers more. Because I'm not an unethical piece of shit, I gain massively when your business takes a hit because the overall need for widgets is fixed, and all that business comes back. I might increase the price of my widgets a few cents but because my company is technically worker-owned, they just hire me as a CEO to make executive decisions, there are no investors to make panicky. I can ignore Las WallStreet. Everyone in my factory stays employed, and we take a loan to scale operations by whatever margin your hit was. Which means hiring all your workers.

I'm alright with this.

The thing you don't seem to get is that just because it hurts the unethical pieces of shit in the world who live on margins, margins aren't fucking necessary. Labor costs SHOULD expand to within 1% of margins for any decent company, and it's the duty of the CEO and owner to guarantee that happens or be helped to there through taxation. What is the incentive? 1% of a huge lot is still a pretty big slice.
 
Which is nothing like what real firms do. They pay standardised amounts for standardised tasks with rational division of labour and price at cost-plus. They neither know nor care what the marginal contribution of a given worker is - a concept which barely means anything under modern production methods anyway. Either they need widget-tappers, burger-flippers, whatever, or they do not. They can't dispense with some cog in the production process or they have nil product and nil revenue. Neither do they hire extraneous labour just because it's cheap.

Marginalism, as one factory owner described it when first propounded, is "the product of the itching imaginations of uninformed and inexperienced arm-chair theorisers."

Now certainly, a MW hike might push costs over revenue. That means the firm and its product is marginal, not the last worker hired. And if that MW hike lifts employees out of welfare dependency, then that firm was welfare-dependent regardless of who the intended welfare recipient was.

Second, at the margin possible substitutes for unskilled labor become more attractive whether they be automation or hiring skilled people who are now relatively cheaper. Third, businesses that employ large amounts of unskilled labor will raise prices causing demand for their products to fall, causing these industries to hire fewer people.
As indeed would firms employing large amounts of skilled labour raising prices. Bugger all to do with marginal contribution of the least skilled worker, though.

But some firms can dispense with labor. The job market is in a constant flux. When you hear "there were 200,000 jobs created in October" that is typically a result of something like 5,200,000 new jobs net of 5,000,000 jobs lost (see earlier link). Raising the cost of labor gives firms that can replace or reduce the amount of labor they use more reason to do so.

Do you actually believe that across the entire economy price has no effect on demand? If we raised the minimum wage to $100 per hour it would have no affect on the demand for a labor?

Do you also believe that if we set a minimum price for broccoli of $1000 per bunch it would have no effect on the demand for broccoli?
 
Now let's suppose that I'm your competitor, who has always taken that hit, and paid my workers more. Because I'm not an unethical piece of shit, I gain massively when your business takes a hit because the overall need for widgets is fixed, and all that business comes back. I might increase the price of my widgets a few cents but because my company is technically worker-owned, they just hire me as a CEO to make executive decisions, there are no investors to make panicky. I can ignore Las WallStreet. Everyone in my factory stays employed, and we take a loan to scale operations by whatever margin your hit was. Which means hiring all your workers.
If you could do that, why didn't you hire them before?

And the overall need for widgets is usually NOT fixed. It depends on price. If you raise the price of a widget, some customers will decide that they can do without.
 
Which is nothing like what real firms do. They pay standardised amounts for standardised tasks with rational division of labour and price at cost-plus. They neither know nor care what the marginal contribution of a given worker is - a concept which barely means anything under modern production methods anyway. Either they need widget-tappers, burger-flippers, whatever, or they do not. They can't dispense with some cog in the production process or they have nil product and nil revenue. Neither do they hire extraneous labour just because it's cheap.

Marginalism, as one factory owner described it when first propounded, is "the product of the itching imaginations of uninformed and inexperienced arm-chair theorisers."

Now certainly, a MW hike might push costs over revenue. That means the firm and its product is marginal, not the last worker hired. And if that MW hike lifts employees out of welfare dependency, then that firm was welfare-dependent regardless of who the intended welfare recipient was.

As indeed would firms employing large amounts of skilled labour raising prices. Bugger all to do with marginal contribution of the least skilled worker, though.

But some firms can dispense with labor. The job market is in a constant flux. When you hear "there were 200,000 jobs created in October" that is typically a result of something like 5,200,000 new jobs net of 5,000,000 jobs lost (see earlier link).
Of course. That's firms going in and out of business or needing fitters one month, drivers the next. It's not firms continually ranking the marginal contribution of every fitter and driver. That's fucking ridiculous.
Raising the cost of labor gives firms that can replace or reduce the amount of labor they use more reason to do so.
If they didn't need the labour, they wouldn't have hired it just because it was cheap. Increased labour costs might make production unviable, but that means production is marginal, not the last hire.

Do you actually believe that across the entire economy price has no effect on demand? If we raised the minimum wage to $100 per hour it would have no affect on the demand for a labor?
Of course not. Do you actually believe that across the entire economy wages have no effect on demand for goods and services?

Do you also believe that if we set a minimum price for broccoli of $1000 per bunch it would have no effect on the demand for broccoli?
Of course not. We'd stop buying broccoli. Not the marginal florets on heads of broccoli.
 
It's not firms continually ranking the marginal contribution of every fitter and driver. That's fucking ridiculous.

The argument is not that they literally make his calculation every 5 minutes. The argument is that this is the calculation that they will directionally move toward optimizing it over time. You agree they try to optimize profits over time? Do you also agree that they would shed workers they don't consider profitable? Do you also agree that the exact same worker doing the exact same job suddenly becoming more expensive makes them more likely to be considered not profitable?

How could it not?

Of course not. Do you actually believe that across the entire economy wages have no effect on demand for goods and services?

We're not talking about raising the entire economy's wages. About 2% of people make minimum wage. We're also not conjuring up this money from nowhere. The money comes out of someone else's pocket. As it turns out it comes out of the pocket of people most likely to hire minimum wage workers or the sort of customers most likely to frequent minimum wage paying establishments. If you wanted to target a group of people for whom having less money would decrease the demand for minimum wage labor this would probably be the group you'd go after.

Do you also believe that if we set a minimum price for broccoli of $1000 per bunch it would have no effect on the demand for broccoli?
Of course not. We'd stop buying broccoli. Not the marginal florets on heads of broccoli.

It's good to know the law of demand operates for broccoli. Now all we need is a coherent explanation why it magically gets suspended for low skilled labor.
 
It's good to know the law of demand operates for broccoli. Now all we need is a coherent explanation why it magically gets suspended for low skilled labor.

Is this the old, "If we raise the minimum wage by one cent, why not raise it by a superzillion dollars?," fallacy?
 
It's good to know the law of demand operates for broccoli. Now all we need is a coherent explanation why it magically gets suspended for low skilled labor.

Is this the old, "If we raise the minimum wage by one cent, why not raise it by a superzillion dollars?," fallacy?

Except that it's not a fallacy. One of the three things can happen with raising minimum wage in regard to employment loss

1) It looks somewhat like an upward trending line where raising the min wage causes loss
2) There is a laffer curve with regard to min wage
3) It's a flat line, so raising it to a million dollars has no affect.
 
Is this the old, "If we raise the minimum wage by one cent, why not raise it by a superzillion dollars?," fallacy?

Except that it's not a fallacy. One of the three things can happen with raising minimum wage in regard to employment loss

1) It looks somewhat like an upward trending line where raising the min wage causes loss
2) There is a laffer curve with regard to min wage
3) It's a flat line, so raising it to a million dollars has no affect.

Glad to see that faith-based economics is alive and well.
 
Except that it's not a fallacy. One of the three things can happen with raising minimum wage in regard to employment loss

1) It looks somewhat like an upward trending line where raising the min wage causes loss
2) There is a laffer curve with regard to min wage
3) It's a flat line, so raising it to a million dollars has no affect.

Glad to see that faith-based economics is alive and well.

Except it's not faith based. one of those three options has to be the one that happens in regard to raising the minimum wage. Which one do you you argue is the case?
 
Except it's not faith based. one of those three options has to be the one that happens in regard to raising the minimum wage. Which one do you you argue is the case?

Why not raise the minimum wage to a superzillion dollars?

You didn't answer my question. Since I believe 1) is how raising the minimum wage works, it would cause all job loss.
 
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