Ukraine says it destroyed Russian military vehicles that crossed the border.

[thief of fire]

Ukraine crisis: Kiev says troops destroyed Russian vehicle, border officials begin inspection of aid convoy from Moscow

Ukraine says its forces have attacked and partly destroyed a Russian armoured column that entered Ukrainian territory, a firefight which, if confirmed, would mark a dramatic worsening of the conflict.

However, Russia's government denied its forces had crossed into Ukraine, and accused Kiev of trying to sabotage deliveries of aid, but European capitals accused the Kremlin of escalating the fighting.

Kiev and its Western allies have in the past repeatedly accused Russia of arming pro-Moscow separatist rebels in eastern Ukraine, and of sending undercover military units onto Ukrainian soil.

If Ukraine can for the first time show the remains of Russian military vehicles captured or destroyed on its territory, that would give extra force to Kiev's allegations - and possibly spark a new round of sanctions against the Kremlin.

Andriy Lysenko, a spokesman for the Ukrainian military, said Kiev's forces had picked up a Russian military column crossing the border under the cover of darkness.

"Appropriate actions were undertaken and a part of it no longer exists," Mr Lysenko said.

Ukrainian president Petro Poroshenko briefed British prime minister David Cameron on the incident and told him a "significant" part of the Russian column had been destroyed, according to statement from Mr Poroshenko's office.

As usual the whole story is strange and it's difficult to know what is really going on.

Did Ukraine Attack Its Own Tanks? White House "Can't Confirm Russian Convoy Was Destroyed By Kiev"

While today's trading session was marked by news which at first blush correlated with what may be the 2014 equivalent of the Archduke Ferdinand shooting, in retrospect the newsflow made painfully little sense. Let's recap:

Yesterday afternoon, two UK reporters working for the Guardian and Telegraph, supposedly located by the border in east Ukraine, reported that they were "eyewitnesses" as a convoy of military trucks crossed the Russian border into the breakaway Donetsk republic, aka Ukraine. While there have been photos of the military truck that have accompanied the Russian humantiarian convoy on Russian territory, there has so far been no proof, aside from said eyewitness reports, confirming Russian military vehicles entered or were in Ukraine.
This morning Ukraine military’s spokesman, Andriy Lysenko, shocked the world when newswire reported that Ukraine forces had attacked an armed convoy from Russia, and "destroyed" a part of it. This was subsequently reiterated by the president of Ukraine himself who said that "the given information was trustworthy and confirmed because the majority of that machines had been eliminated by the Ukrainian artillery at night", and by the secretary-general of NATO, Anders Fogh Rasmussen, who said that the alliance had detected an “incursion” of vehicles from Russia last night, adding that “what we have seen last night is the continuation of what we have seen for some time." Alas, as in the case above, just more verbal reports, with zero actual evidence.
Shortly thereafter, Russia responded when the Russian defense ministry said that there was no Russian military column that crossed into Eastern Ukraine, and that the above reports are based on "some fantasies."
This is where the breakdown of logic occurs, because for Russia to make such a formal statement it clearly implies that Russia believes there is no evidence of destruction of a Russian convoy in Ukraine territory, something which obviously would exist if indeed as Ukraine's president had claimed, the "majority of the machines had been eliminated."

 

[Bronzeage]

If any of it is true, it will be apparent as soon as daylight hits the battle field. Burning tanks make good satellite pictures and recovering damaged tanks under hostile fire is never a good idea.

 

[dystopian]

While I don't claim to know whether this story is true, I do take issue with this quoted bit of "logic":

This is where the breakdown of logic occurs, because for Russia to make such a formal statement it clearly implies that Russia believes there is no evidence of destruction of a Russian convoy in Ukraine territory, something which obviously would exist if indeed as Ukraine's president had claimed, the "majority of the machines had been eliminated."

For a government to make such a formal statement implies no such thing; unless one is naive enough to believe governments always tell people the embarrassing/compromising truth. The Russian government is in no position to publically admit it if one of their military convoys got destroyed by the Ukrainians. If the story is true, then for Russia to admit its convoy got destroyed would 1) prove to everyone they've been lying about not crossing the border with military convoys, which would undoubtedly lead to an immediate further increase in sanction pressure; 2) Put the government in an awkward position domestically, since it has been pushing a nationalistic narrative; having a military convoy destroyed by Ukraine, which is clearly weaker than Russia, would be taken as humiliating by a largely anti-Ukraine Russian public, which would put pressure on the government to invade Ukraine the same way they did with Crimea; however, to do so would completely and utterly destroy any hope of reconciliation with the west. If they do, the current economic sanctions placed on them will look like nothing more than harsh words compared to what they'd face. If they don't, then the government's popular support will likely cave in on itself. Damned if they do, damned if they don't. On the other hand, if they just deny that the Ukrainians destroyed their military convoy, they can avoid either scenario.

If true, then *of course* the Russians would deny it. Doesn't mean it's true, but Russia's denial doesn't make it any less plausible.

 

[Jayjay]

Also Russia has been careful to use equipment that is in Ukrainian army inventory, so that they have plausible deniability by claiming the vehicles or weapons were captured by separatists from Ukrainian armed forces or are fakes set up by Kiev.

 

[thief of fire]

Also Russia has been careful to use equipment that is in Ukrainian army inventory, so that they have plausible deniability by claiming the vehicles or weapons were captured by separatists from Ukrainian armed forces or are fakes set up by Kiev.

Plus, it looks like there might have been Ukrainian soldiers defecting, so that might explain some things also

 

[Harry Bosch]

The information is very confusing. But it appears to me that the Russians sent two convoys: one was military, the other contained real aid. It appears that the convoy with arms was destroyed. Here's the odd part: it appears that the convoy with real aid was half empty! According to the BBC, half the trucks were empty. If I had to guess, they were all filled, but at some point, Putin's thugs stole them. It's a real mystery.

 

[steve_bnk]

Ukraine says the world is flat.

Russia clams it invented the telephone.

Very difficult to say which side is being truthful on these two issues.(sarcasm)

I look at CNN and BBC online. Both post conflicting and misleading reports.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

The information is very confusing. But it appears to me that the Russians sent two convoys: one was military, the other contained real aid. It appears that the convoy with arms was destroyed. Here's the odd part: it appears that the convoy with real aid was half empty! According to the BBC, half the trucks were empty. If I had to guess, they were all filled, but at some point, Putin's thugs stole them. It's a real mystery.

Someone stole it. That doesn't mean it was Putin's thugs. Russia has major theft problems--they've even sent up a rocket whose cargo got pilfered!

 

[barbos]

I guess Russian snipers in Odessa story was checked out OK, no?
Why do you believe everything what Junta says then?

 

[Togo]

The significance of the Telegraph and the Guardian, is that they both UK newspapers that are well respected for the quality of their investigative journalism, and from opposing sides of the political spectrum. The Telegraph is very much a right-wing paper, and the Guardian very much a left wing paper, and both have won awards for breaking significant stories that were backed up.

If reporters from both say that they saw the trucks being destroyed, I'm inclined to believe that they saw trucks being destroyed.

 

[barbos]

If reporters from both say that they saw the trucks being destroyed, I'm inclined to believe that they saw trucks being destroyed.

Where do they say that? It seems they merely parrot what Junta leader says who himself parrots god knows who.
And there are a lot of things destroyed over there. Does not mean Russia has anything to do with it.

 

[Togo]

If reporters from both say that they saw the trucks being destroyed, I'm inclined to believe that they saw trucks being destroyed.

Where do they say that?

in the bit where they say they were eyewitnesses.

 

[thief of fire]

Where do they say that?

in the bit where they say they were eyewitnesses.

Unless I missed something I think it just says they saw them , not that they saw them get destroyed.

Yesterday afternoon, two UK reporters working for the Guardian and Telegraph, supposedly located by the border in east Ukraine, reported that they were "eyewitnesses" as a convoy of military trucks crossed the Russian border into the breakaway Donetsk republic, aka Ukraine

The Telegraph is very much a right-wing paper, and the Guardian very much a left wing paper, and both have won awards for breaking significant stories that were backed up

If reporters from both say that they saw the trucks being destroyed, I'm inclined to believe that they saw trucks being destroyed.

Shaun Walker is the reporter for the Guardian.
https://twitter.com/shaunwalker7/status/500012633706496001

Here are his articles.
http://www.theguardian.com/profile/shaun-walker

I don't see much divide between him and the telegraph

 

[barbos]

Well OSCE have not seen any trucks entering Ukraine.
Meanwhile first truck with humanitarian aid just entered Ukraine from Russia