Upper Education: Signalling or Learning

[coloradoatheist]

Here is a debate about whether college is a signal or providing useful knowledge. Both sides make some decent on their side

http://marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2016/03/econ-duel-is-education-signaling-or-skill-building.html

 

[Nice Squirrel]

Heehee

Why is Adam Smith the greatest economist of all time?

 

[beero1000]

False dichotomies are the best kind.

 

[coloradoatheist]

False dichotomies are the best kind.

And it's discussed in the video.

One question was, "Would you rather have the knowledge from a Harvard Degree without the "Harvard" in front of it, or the Harvard degree without the knowledge.

 

[dismal]

False dichotomies are the best kind.

And it's discussed in the video.

One question was, "Would you rather have the knowledge from a Harvard Degree without the "Harvard" in front of it, or the Harvard degree without the knowledge.

The knowledge gained is far down the list for most careers. You cold learn most of what you use in a much shorter time. Much of it you don't use at all.

I think the main value of a Harvard degree is they don't juts hand them out like chicklets. I takes some level of concentrated achievement and intelligence to get one. Though probably not nearly as much as it takes to get an Engineering degree from MIT. I have met some Harvard people who are not all that impressive. The hard part is getting in.

 

[beero1000]

False dichotomies are the best kind.

And it's discussed in the video.

One question was, "Would you rather have the knowledge from a Harvard Degree without the "Harvard" in front of it, or the Harvard degree without the knowledge.

The false dichotomy that underlies the entire debate is not discussed at all in the video. The question you quote is a perfect example of the unstated dichotomous premise.

 

[coloradoatheist]

And it's discussed in the video.

One question was, "Would you rather have the knowledge from a Harvard Degree without the "Harvard" in front of it, or the Harvard degree without the knowledge.

The knowledge gained is far down the list for most careers. You cold learn most of what you use in a much shorter time. Much of it you don't use at all.

I think the main value of a Harvard degree is they don't juts hand them out like chicklets. I takes some level of concentrated achievement and intelligence to get one. Though probably not nearly as much as it takes to get an Engineering degree from MIT. I have met some Harvard people who are not all that impressive. The hard part is getting in.

I agree. The signal for a Harvard degree is getting into the program, not what you learn.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

And it's discussed in the video.

One question was, "Would you rather have the knowledge from a Harvard Degree without the "Harvard" in front of it, or the Harvard degree without the knowledge.

The knowledge gained is far down the list for most careers. You cold learn most of what you use in a much shorter time. Much of it you don't use at all.

I think the main value of a Harvard degree is they don't juts hand them out like chicklets. I takes some level of concentrated achievement and intelligence to get one. Though probably not nearly as much as it takes to get an Engineering degree from MIT. I have met some Harvard people who are not all that impressive. The hard part is getting in.

Well that settles that then.

While there are certainly courses that aren't necessary to gain a degree, like Chemistry for a Civil Engineering degree, I have a hard time thinking an engineering degree can be had quickly. Pre-Law and Pre-Med are probably the absolute dumbest of major layouts. But then isn't there something to a comprehensive education in general... or is a College just job training?

 

[fromderinside]

I agree. The signal for a Harvard degree is getting into the program, not what you learn.

I disagree for most students. The top Havad students get dream jobs followed by dream careers. Typical Harvard students will do well, but for instance, if they are engineering students they won't do as well as Northwestern or Michigan engineers. Worse if they are PoliSci they will probably wind up with Dept of State or NSA jobs in Morocco and retire as mid level technocrats. An MBA or a law degree from Harvard is a desired degree which will open many doors at whatever level one graduates. Yes there's magic in a Harvard degree if you are wealthy, connected, in specific programs, or do really well. But for most who go there its most attractive feature is how you get connected.

So, for most its what one learns and who one becomes connected with, rather than the name. For some it doesn't matter one way or the other and for a small minority in desired areas it is probably the name of the institution more than anything else.

 

[laughing dog]

And it's discussed in the video.

One question was, "Would you rather have the knowledge from a Harvard Degree without the "Harvard" in front of it, or the Harvard degree without the knowledge.

The false dichotomy that underlies the entire debate is not discussed at all in the video. The question you quote is a perfect example of the unstated dichotomous premise.

Exactly. It is as if it not possible to learn and signal at the same time. Or that for some people it is mostly signalling while for others it is mostly learning.

As an aside, Tyler Cowen is better self-promoter than economist.

 

[coloradoatheist]

The false dichotomy that underlies the entire debate is not discussed at all in the video. The question you quote is a perfect example of the unstated dichotomous premise.

Exactly. It is as if it not possible to learn and signal at the same time. Or that for some people it is mostly signalling while for others it is mostly learning.

As an aside, Tyler Cowen is better self-promoter than economist.

They didn't ask it, but pointed it when. When a class is canceled, what percentage of the students get upset that they missed a chance to learn?

 

[Nice Squirrel]

Exactly. It is as if it not possible to learn and signal at the same time. Or that for some people it is mostly signalling while for others it is mostly learning.

As an aside, Tyler Cowen is better self-promoter than economist.

They didn't ask it, but pointed it when. When a class is canceled, what percentage of the students get upset that they missed a chance to learn?

Are they forced to be in college?

 

[dismal]

The knowledge gained is far down the list for most careers. You cold learn most of what you use in a much shorter time. Much of it you don't use at all.

I think the main value of a Harvard degree is they don't juts hand them out like chicklets. I takes some level of concentrated achievement and intelligence to get one. Though probably not nearly as much as it takes to get an Engineering degree from MIT. I have met some Harvard people who are not all that impressive. The hard part is getting in.

Well that settles that then.

While there are certainly courses that aren't necessary to gain a degree, like Chemistry for a Civil Engineering degree, I have a hard time thinking an engineering degree can be had quickly. Pre-Law and Pre-Med are probably the absolute dumbest of major layouts. But then isn't there something to a comprehensive education in general... or is a College just job training?

I have an engineering degree and doubt I have ever used 5% of what I learned.

Yet, people are still impressed I have it.

On the other hand, I went to graduate school for finance and immediately went into a financial job and used a decent amount of what I learned. But probably what I used could have been learned in a few months of training on the job. Most of the stuff you actually use in the world is in the 100 level courses, not the 400 level courses.

 

[Nice Squirrel]

And it shows! Says the guy who never worked in his degree field.

 

[coloradoatheist]

They didn't ask it, but pointed it when. When a class is canceled, what percentage of the students get upset that they missed a chance to learn?

Are they forced to be in college?

That's what we are trying to find out. Does society force people to be in college as a signal to everyone else?

 

[Nice Squirrel]

"society"?

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Well that settles that then.

While there are certainly courses that aren't necessary to gain a degree, like Chemistry for a Civil Engineering degree, I have a hard time thinking an engineering degree can be had quickly. Pre-Law and Pre-Med are probably the absolute dumbest of major layouts. But then isn't there something to a comprehensive education in general... or is a College just job training?

I have an engineering degree and doubt I have ever used 5% of what I learned.

Yet, people are still impressed I have it.

On the other hand, I went to graduate school for finance and immediately went into a financial job and used a decent amount of what I learned. But probably what I used could have been learned in a few months of training on the job. Most of the stuff you actually use in the world is in the 100 level courses, not the 400 level courses.

Visa versa for me. 300/400 + Grad is what I've used.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Exactly. It is as if it not possible to learn and signal at the same time. Or that for some people it is mostly signalling while for others it is mostly learning.

As an aside, Tyler Cowen is better self-promoter than economist.

They didn't ask it, but pointed it when. When a class is canceled, what percentage of the students get upset that they missed a chance to learn?

Being an engineer major, I'd welcome it as a short reprieve. I probably can count the number of classes cancelled on the fingers of one hand, though.

I do remember using a Monty Python derivative in an upper level Government class when the teacher had allowed the class to get grossly off-topic. For me, I was taking a relatively advanced course to learn (not because this was the only thing I could get a major in), and was getting annoyed and asked for the class to get back on the rails.

 

[dismal]

I have an engineering degree and doubt I have ever used 5% of what I learned.

Yet, people are still impressed I have it.

On the other hand, I went to graduate school for finance and immediately went into a financial job and used a decent amount of what I learned. But probably what I used could have been learned in a few months of training on the job. Most of the stuff you actually use in the world is in the 100 level courses, not the 400 level courses.

Visa versa for me. 300/400 + Grad is what I've used.

If you end up as a specialist in the field you studied it can work out that way. Most (many?) people do not have the foresight at 18 to study exactly what they end up doing in their later career.

 

[ronburgundy]

And it's discussed in the video.

One question was, "Would you rather have the knowledge from a Harvard Degree without the "Harvard" in front of it, or the Harvard degree without the knowledge.

The knowledge gained is far down the list for most careers. You cold learn most of what you use in a much shorter time. Much of it you don't use at all.

That only focuses upon very direct an narrow application of isolated learned facts to transparently relevant contexts. There are near infinite indirect ways in which knowledge facilitates thinking, including via analogy. In addition, there is the development of thinking and reasoning skills, plus just gaining an appreciation for plurality of approaches to answering questions and the complex and nuanced structure of complete explanations for things, etc..

Studies show increases during college in general critical thinking skills measured be standardized tests. This study tested college Freshman in the Fall and then again in the Spring of their Sophmore year (so, after 2 years of college courses). About 45% of students didn't change in their measured critical thinking skills, but 55% did. The average for all students was only a .18 standard deviation improvement, which is small. But the students who started out near the top of the distribution improved more, up to 1.5 standard deviations increase in scores among the students that were already in the top 10% when entering college. The scores as Freshman reflect a combination of ability and prior preparation which partly reflects motivation to make use of educational opportunities. So, college improves general thinking skills, if students are prepared and willing to take advantage of the learning opportunities afforded. Ohher analysis looking at the type of courses students take, etc., cohere with this interpretation of who improved and why.

Keep in mind this research includes all those non-serious students who don't make it past their Sophmore year (close to half of all college students). The smaller advanced courses taken by Junior's and Seniors allow for and require much more independent critical thinking. So, it is likely that the development in thinking is much greater over the 4 years, than this study shows.