US student loans grotesquely high

[Derec]

Great floor speech from AOC on student-debt cancellation. She talked about how important it was for her family for her to go to college,

Let's not forget that she is a daughter of a NYC architect who owned his own business. She is some kind of working class hero.

and she said that she didn't continue to graduate school because of what an enormous debt that she would then have had. She also said that she still has $17,000 in student debt.

She wouldn't have had to borrow as much had she gone to SUNY or something instead of Boston University.
Also, her going to graduate school would have been a waste of time - she wasn't even using her undergraduate degree tending bar and driving 1000s of miles protesting oil.

Forbes on Twitter: "STUDENT DEBT: Rep. @AOC calls for cancelling student loan debt, and slams the "false narratives that student loan debt is for the privileged. What a ridiculous assertion. Do we really think that a billionaire's child is taking student loans? Come on!" (vid link)" / Twitter

It is a sick trope that is developing among Democrats that only billionaires are privileged. That's how we get proposals to tax billionaires' unrealized capital gains but at the same time one of the most expensive parts of B³ would be a tax cut which mostly benefits those making more than $200k/a.

If you chose to go to a private university, you are pretty privileged. I do not see why us taxpayers should pay for it.

She had a chart that stated $1.73 T of student-loan debt with 47.9 M Americans with that debt.

And how is this debt distributed among present income, family-of-origin income, type of school attended, type of degree (undergrad, graduate, professional) etc.
Those things matter, and it is telling that squaddies are rather vague about student debt distribution.

 

[lpetrich]

Great floor speech from AOC on student-debt cancellation. She talked about how important it was for her family for her to go to college,

Let's not forget that she is a daughter of a NYC architect who owned his own business. She is some kind of working class hero.

Except that her family wasn't as rich as what you seem to think. AOC's mother cleaned houses for extra income, and AOC remembers grumbling about eating lots of rice and beans.

and she said that she didn't continue to graduate school because of what an enormous debt that she would then have had. She also said that she still has $17,000 in student debt.

She wouldn't have had to borrow as much had she gone to SUNY or something instead of Boston University.

Numbers: {}

She was involved in some education startups, but she wasn't very successful, and her mother had a hard time holding on to the family house after her father died. So she had to become a bartender.

Also, her going to graduate school would have been a waste of time - she wasn't even using her undergraduate degree tending bar and driving 1000s of miles protesting oil.

She came to feel like a failure, so she started seeing a "life coach", someone who advised her to go in some direction rather than having anything other than reaching some big goal be absolute failure. She started going to Black Lives Matter marches, and she became a campaigner for Bernie Sanders in his 2016 Presidential run.

In spring of that year, his campaign ended, and unknown to AOC, some of his campaigners thought about what next. Seeing the Republicans' obstructionism in Congress, they decided that a good President will also need a good Congress. Thus, "Brand New Congress". They originally wanted to contest every open seat, but they crucially decided not to create a new party. Instead, their candidates would be run as Democrats and Republicans as appropriate.

Late that year, AOC learned from a friend of a protest in Standing Rock, and she contacted that friend as to what the protesters wanted. Show up as a protester? Impractical. Get supplies to the protesters? Good idea. She and two friends then did so, buying some stuff and driving all the way to Standing Rock. They didn't stay long, and soon returned home, but the experience made a profound impression on AOC.

Also in that time, her brother Gabriel volunteered her as a BNC recruit. She was like "Whatever". She had long thought of running for office, but she had neither the money nor the connections to do so. But when she returned, a BNC member called her up about how BNC was interested. She went to a sort of BNC boot camp, where she'd practice doing news-media interviews. She only started running around May of 2017, and she spent the next months knocking on lots of doors in her district. She got the support of a lot of local progressives who were happy that someone was willing to run against that big incumbent moneybags Joe Crowley. When she beat him in the primary, he rather graciously conceded.

Forbes on Twitter: "STUDENT DEBT: Rep. @AOC calls for cancelling student loan debt, and slams the "false narratives that student loan debt is for the privileged. What a ridiculous assertion. Do we really think that a billionaire's child is taking student loans? Come on!" (vid link)" / Twitter

It is a sick trope that is developing among Democrats that only billionaires are privileged.

???

That's how we get proposals to tax billionaires' unrealized capital gains but at the same time one of the most expensive parts of B³ would be a tax cut which mostly benefits those making more than $200k/a.

Are you saying that you agree with AOC that we must tax the rich?

 

[Jason Harvestdancer]

The reason the cost of education has gone up has several factors, but one of them is: government guaranteed student loans that are not dischargable through bankruptcy.

The bank never loses money on a student loan, so they are free to make them without any fiduciary concern. This in turn leads colleges being able to charge more simply because the students can pay more.

I didn't say it was the only reason, as some are going to respond to me accusing me of. But it is a reason, and not an insignificant one.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

The reason the cost of education has gone up has several factors, but one of them is: government guaranteed student loans that are not dischargable through bankruptcy.

The bank never loses money on a student loan, so they are free to make them without any fiduciary concern. This in turn leads colleges being able to charge more simply because the students can pay more.

I didn't say it was the only reason, as some are going to respond to me accusing me of. But it is a reason, and not an insignificant one.

Actually, the cost of education hasn't gone up unreasonably. It's just the portion paid by the student has gone up considerably.

 

[Trausti]

The reason the cost of education has gone up has several factors, but one of them is: government guaranteed student loans that are not dischargable through bankruptcy.

The bank never loses money on a student loan, so they are free to make them without any fiduciary concern. This in turn leads colleges being able to charge more simply because the students can pay more.

I didn't say it was the only reason, as some are going to respond to me accusing me of. But it is a reason, and not an insignificant one.

Actually, the cost of education hasn't gone up unreasonably. It's just the portion paid by the student has gone up considerably.

Schools are aware that students can get max loans so they set tuition to match. If federal student loans were treated like Medicare, in that schools could only charge a certain tuition to be eligible, that’d be good for everyone. That’s one of Andrew Yang’s ideas I fully support.

 

[Jason Harvestdancer]

The reason the cost of education has gone up has several factors, but one of them is: government guaranteed student loans that are not dischargable through bankruptcy.

The bank never loses money on a student loan, so they are free to make them without any fiduciary concern. This in turn leads colleges being able to charge more simply because the students can pay more.

I didn't say it was the only reason, as some are going to respond to me accusing me of. But it is a reason, and not an insignificant one.

Actually, the cost of education hasn't gone up unreasonably. It's just the portion paid by the student has gone up considerably.

The cost of education has risen faster than inflation.

 

[Trausti]

The reason the cost of education has gone up has several factors, but one of them is: government guaranteed student loans that are not dischargable through bankruptcy.

The bank never loses money on a student loan, so they are free to make them without any fiduciary concern. This in turn leads colleges being able to charge more simply because the students can pay more.

I didn't say it was the only reason, as some are going to respond to me accusing me of. But it is a reason, and not an insignificant one.

Actually, the cost of education hasn't gone up unreasonably. It's just the portion paid by the student has gone up considerably.

The cost of education has risen faster than inflation.

It's not really about education anymore.

Ohio State employs more than 100 diversity workers, costing $10 million-plus per year

 

[Metaphor]

The reason the cost of education has gone up has several factors, but one of them is: government guaranteed student loans that are not dischargable through bankruptcy.

The bank never loses money on a student loan, so they are free to make them without any fiduciary concern. This in turn leads colleges being able to charge more simply because the students can pay more.

I didn't say it was the only reason, as some are going to respond to me accusing me of. But it is a reason, and not an insignificant one.

Actually, the cost of education hasn't gone up unreasonably. It's just the portion paid by the student has gone up considerably.

The cost of education has risen faster than inflation.

It's not really about education anymore.

Ohio State employs more than 100 diversity workers, costing $10 million-plus per year

Amateurs. The University of California at Berkeley has a budget of $25m, 150 full and part time professional staff, and 250 part time student staff for its division of equity and inclusion.

Also, Ohio State are right wing fascists, because diversity, equity and inclusion is meaningless without including belonging and justice (DEIBJ)

 

[Trausti]

Also, Ohio State are right wing fascists, because diversity, equity and inclusion is meaningless without including belonging and justice (DEIBJ)

 

[Derec]

Except that her family wasn't as rich as what you seem to think.

Maybe not rich, but solidly middle class. Well off enough certainly to own a house in Westchester County.

AOC's mother cleaned houses for extra income, and AOC remembers grumbling about eating lots of rice and beans.

[citation needed] on cleaning houses. And what timeframe is that supposed to be? During the time her husband owned the architecture firm?
As far as rice and beans, are you suggesting only the poor eat that? Or have children who grumble over what's for dinner?

Numbers: {}

Boston University: $58k
SUNY instate: $7k

She was involved in some education startups, but she wasn't very successful, and her mother had a hard time holding on to the family house after her father died. So she had to become a bartender.

"Had to"? I very much doubt she had to work as bartender as opposed to finding work in her supposed field.
More likely, working as a barmaid allowed her the flexibility to do things like drive 2000 miles to protest against oil.

Late that year, AOC learned from a friend of a protest in Standing Rock, and she contacted that friend as to what the protesters wanted. Show up as a protester? Impractical. Get supplies to the protesters? Good idea.

Driving supplies over a 1000 miles in a gas-burning car to protest oil makes very little sense. We went over the follies of Standing Rock in great detail when it was happening in 2016, but suffice it to say, Standing Rock is very on brand for her.

When she beat him in the primary, he rather graciously conceded.

He should have ran a write-in campaign, like the mayor of Buffalo.

It is a sick trope that is developing among Democrats that only billionaires are privileged.

???

AOC's tweet equates "privileged" with being a billionaire. Which is a sentiment I have seen frequently among Democrats as of late. Like B³. People like Warren and Wyden obsess about inventing new taxes to soak the few hundred billionaires while one of the most expensive planks of the bill is a huge tax cut for the merely rich.

Are you saying that you agree with AOC that we must tax the rich?

Within reason, yes. But of course, they do pay taxes. The question is just how much do they pay and how do we think they should pay.
In any case, I am against this monomaniacal obsession with the billionaires, while giving huge tax cuts to people with $50k in property taxes and $30k in state income taxes (or some other combination).
Fauxachontas is even bitching about Elon Musk being selected as TIME's "Person of the Year". That level of pettiness is almost Trumpian.
And in any case, Elon Musk did a lot more for humanity than all 50,000 NYC lawyers (who are among the biggest beneficiaries of the SALT deduction increase in B³) put together.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

The reason the cost of education has gone up has several factors, but one of them is: government guaranteed student loans that are not dischargable through bankruptcy.

The bank never loses money on a student loan, so they are free to make them without any fiduciary concern. This in turn leads colleges being able to charge more simply because the students can pay more.

I didn't say it was the only reason, as some are going to respond to me accusing me of. But it is a reason, and not an insignificant one.

Actually, the cost of education hasn't gone up unreasonably. It's just the portion paid by the student has gone up considerably.

The cost of education has risen faster than inflation.

The cost to the student has risen fast. The budget hasn't gone up unreasonably.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Strange how the Republicans count the cost of Democrat tax cuts but not Republican tax cuts. Your moron was behind a far bigger tax cut.

 

[Derec]

Strange how the Republicans count the cost of Democrat tax cuts but not Republican tax cuts. Your moron was behind a far bigger tax cut.

1. I am not a Republican.
2. Trump is not "my" moron.

I do not agree with all the provisions of the 2017 tax cuts of course, but it was not all bad. The big difference, of course, is that Republicans are not running on "tax the rich" message. Democrats are - which makes these tax cuts for the rich they like quite hypocritical.

 

[lpetrich]

Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez on Twitter: "The fact that Biden has the power to provide student debt relief to millions, had to be forced into extending the eviction moratorium,& has yet to aggressively campaign against the filibuster shows us he has more power than he’s using.

It’s time to take off the gloves & govern." / Twitter

Working Families Party on Twitter: "Canceling up to $50,000 of student loan debt per borrower would immediately increase the wealth of Black Americans by 40%." / Twitter

Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez on Twitter: "With BBB delayed, Child Tax Credits will expire and student loans will restart within a matter of weeks. Working families could lose thousands of $/mo just as prices are rising.
That alone is reason for @POTUS to act on student loans ASAP - w/ either moratorium or cancellation." / Twitter


Michael Stratford on Twitter: "NEWS: Biden admin is considering extension of student loan relief amid omicron surge & pressure from Dems.

@usedgov says it may postpone plan to restart monthly payments Feb 1:

"Later this week, we will be announcing whether to extend the pause further"
(link)" / Twitter
then
Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez on Twitter: "We can change decisions and conditions. We just did with the idea of sending out millions of free at-home COVID tests - initially laughed at, yet now it’s happening.

We can do it again. Tens of millions will get relief. It’s time for @POTUS to #CancelStudentDebt." / Twitter

President Biden on Twitter: "Today, I announced my Administration is extending the pause on federal student loan repayments for an additional 90 days. (vid link)" / Twitter
then
Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez on Twitter: "Thank you! Next step: cancellation" / Twitter

Up to May 1.

 

[Jarhyn]

Strange how the Republicans count the cost of Democrat tax cuts but not Republican tax cuts. Your moron was behind a far bigger tax cut.

1. I am not a Republican.
2. Trump is not "my" moron.

I do not agree with all the provisions of the 2017 tax cuts of course, but it was not all bad. The big difference, of course, is that Republicans are not running on "tax the rich" message. Democrats are - which makes these tax cuts for the rich they like quite hypocritical.

1. I do not believe you.
2. I do not believe you.

You say one thing up front and then everything else you say runs counter to that grain.

You say you don't like him but then you look for ways to make the awful things he does not seem so bad.

"I'm not going to sting you out over the water, bro!"

If I did not value the truth, this is the tactic I would take.

When we look at numbers uncooked from the purely republican sources you seem to cleave to, they still look bad.

And if you haven't been paying attention a lot of voting democrats are very pissed at a lot of elected Democrats because there is a clear gamesmanship and fuck-fuck games being played instead of passing real legislation in good faith. Mostly by the most conservative of the Democrats who are clearly on the take.

To be clear: the vast majority of Republicans and especially the orange turd and especially his cult of enablers, a behavior that you are participating in by echoing spin, can say up front they don't like him all the want. It rings hollow. Though most don't, because it's a clear virtue signal to say 'trump won the election' or to question the results, if you can call 'evil' a virtue.

 

[Derec]

1. I do not believe you.
2. I do not believe you.

You may believe what you please. The facts take no heed to what you do not believe. The fact is that I am not a Republican, nor have I ever supported Trump. In 2016 I could not stomach neither Trump nor Hillary (Turd Sandwich vs. Giant Douche) and voted for neither. In 2020 I voted for Joe Biden believing him to be a moderate - he did not run on adding transformative new entitlements for some.

You say you don't like him but then you look for ways to make the awful things he does not seem so bad.

Just because I do not like him does not mean I have to think that everything he or his administration did was bad. For example, increasing the standard deduction and capping SALT deductions were good ideas.

When we look at numbers uncooked from the purely republican sources you seem to cleave to, they still look bad.

What numbers are you talking about?

And if you haven't been paying attention a lot of voting democrats are very pissed at a lot of elected Democrats because there is a clear gamesmanship and fuck-fuck games being played instead of passing real legislation in good faith. Mostly by the most conservative of the Democrats who are clearly on the take.

Legislators are not required to fall behind their party leadership. They are allowed to have their own opinions on issues.
And Biden passed some significant legislation - the Covid spending plan earlier this year and then the bipartisan infrastructure plan. Some version of B³ is also likely to pass.
But I guess all that is useless unless he also cancels student loans of people who went to Harvey Mudd or some other overpriced private school for their English Lit degree.

To be clear: the vast majority of Republicans and especially the orange turd and especially his cult of enablers, a behavior that you are participating in by echoing spin, can say up front they don't like him all the want. It rings hollow.

I disagree with many things Democrats are doing. I disagree with many things Republicans are doing. On a predominately lefty forum like this one that gets me accused of being a Trumper. Elsewhere I'd be called a pinko with the same positions. Both kinds of extremes are ridiculous.

 

[Derec]

Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez on Twitter: "The fact that Biden has the power to provide student debt relief to millions, had to be forced into extending the eviction moratorium,& has yet to aggressively campaign against the filibuster shows us he has more power than he’s using.
It’s time to take off the gloves & govern." / Twitter

Why should people who take out loans not be expected to repay them? Especially people who went to expensive private colleges and took out huge loans to pay for it?
And why should landlords not be able to evict renters who refuse to pay rent? The eviction moratorium turned out to be a bad policy that was abused by many deadbeat renters. Why revisit it?

Families Party on Twitter: "Canceling up to $50,000 of student loan debt per borrower would immediately increase the wealth of Black Americans by 40%." / Twitter

Because black people are the only ones who matter? Again, why should taxpayers pay off people's student loans?

Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez on Twitter: "With BBB delayed, Child Tax Credits will expire and student loans will restart within a matter of weeks. Working families could lose thousands of $/mo just as prices are rising.

People who have no children (and thus no child tax credit payments) or student loans will also suffer with increasing prices/inflation. Do they not matter? Better to have policies to fight inflation instead of more and more expensive entitlements programs for some.

Up to May 1.

I hope he does not extend the repayments again. There really was no reason to extend it this time either.[/url]

 

[southernhybrid]

People who have no children (and thus no child tax credit payments) or student loans will also suffer with increasing prices/inflation. Do they not matter? Better to have policies to fight inflation instead of more and more expensive entitlements programs for some.

Don't bash the kids. We need them when we get old. They will eventually help pay our benefits and fill the jobs that we all need. Reproduction is a really big thing to most animals, including us. Plus the current birth rate in the US is very low right now. We actually could use more children and it's in everyone's best interest to see that they're educational and basic needs are provided as they grow up

I'm not suggesting that I agree with all of the giveaways. I am in agreement with you when it comes to the student loans. My plan would be to reduce the interest rate to near zero, and offer many ways that those in debt could trade public service for a decrease in their loans. It could be done by working in a needed field in an area where their is a shortage of that professional, or by working in a government job for a number of years, etc. Additionally in extreme cases, including when a former student become disabled or is supporting a frail older family member etc. consideration could be given for loan forgiveness. There is a way to help those who made mistakes regarding college loans, but it needs to be done after careful study as well as compromise.

 

[Derec]

Don't bash the kids.

I am not bashing the kids. I am not Michael Jordan. Or Donald Glover.

It is about policies. Kids are already very heavily subsidized in the US. The existing child tax credit. EITC is also pretty much a child tax credit in disguise. The income limit and maximum benefit increase substantially if you have children, and the more children you have the better. The same goes for benefits like SNAP or Medicaid- income limits and benefits are designed such that most of those who benefit have children and it is hard to qualify if you do not have any.

My beef is not with children as such, but with this idea that ever increasing subsidies for children are a good idea. What happens in 10 years once people get used to the new $3-3.6k per child benefit? Probably Democrats will push yet another increase using Helen Lovejoyesque appeals to emotion.

We need them when we get old. They will eventually help pay our benefits and fill the jobs that we all need.

We need a certain number of children. We do not need ever increasing subsidies for having children.

Reproduction is a really big thing to most animals, including us. Plus the current birth rate in the US is very low right now. We actually could use more children and it's in everyone's best interest to see that they're educational and basic needs are provided as they grow up

We do not need that many more children. Exponential growth is unsustainable in the long run and we need to learn to live with basically stable population. Which is why marginal child tax credit should start decreasing after 2nd child and go to zero after the fifth.
And again, there is a no logical connection between saying that we need children and saying that therefore we must support any harebrained idea to increase subsidies on having them.

I'm not suggesting that I agree with all of the giveaways. I am in agreement with you when it comes to the student loans.

Good. At least we agree on something.

My plan would be to reduce the interest rate to near zero, and offer many ways that those in debt could trade public service for a decrease in their loans. It could be done by working in a needed field in an area where their is a shortage of that professional, or by working in a government job for a number of years, etc. Additionally in extreme cases, including when a former student become disabled or is supporting a frail older family member etc. consideration could be given for loan forgiveness. There is a way to help those who made mistakes regarding college loans, but it needs to be done after careful study as well as compromise.

Not bad ideas overall but I think many of those are already implemented to some extent.
In any case, we agree that a blanket forgiveness of a large sum of loans ($50k or as some leftists want, all of it) is bad policy.

 

[southernhybrid]

Derec, I think you took my "don't bash the kids" comment too seriously. That's why I put the smiley after the rest of the statement. But, I do think that we should help support children from low income homes. It's certainly not their fault that their parents are in need of help or their parents didn't do a good job of family planning. I agree that the amount of income one can make to receive benefits could certainly be lowered. My own son and dil have received the extra money for their two children this past year and my son is a programmer/developer. On the other hand, I suppose part of the reason why the income level was as high as it was, is to include a lot of the middle class families, who often receive little or no federal benefits. Either way, it's not going to turn me into a Republican. That's for sure.

Anyway, I seriously doubt that 50K in college loan debt is going to pass. It has less than 50% approval from the voters and there is a lot of resentment from people who never had the opportunity to attend college as well as from people who paid off their school loans. I've discussed this with friends who worked hard all their lives and never went to college. They don't support the loan forgiveness and resent the idea that those who usually have the ability to make a much higher income compared to themselves, might be given loan forgiveness. The current programs that allow one to work in a needed area in exchange for loan forgiveness are limited and problematic, if what I read about them a few weeks ago is true. Of course, that could be improved. There's a huge shortage of teachers right now. There are or used to be programs where one could teach while also obtaining the credentials to be certified in teaching. I would fully support such a program in return for loan forgiveness. A person should be willing to put in some effort in exchange for loan forgiveness. That's my point.