Venezuela - Chronicles in Socialist Success Stories!

[ksen]

When you go to war with nature, nature will win.

Are you really arguing that capitalism is our natural state?

 

[Trausti]

I really don't know, nor care, much about Venzuela either way. I do, however, want to comment on these pictures of "empty" shelves.



Above we have a picture of a section of shelves, in which four shelves seem to be mostly empty, yet the shelves above, below, and to both sides seem to be quite full. Also, above and to the left you can see a large mirror that shows longer sections of shelves on the other side of the store that seem quite full. Someone needs to brush up on their photoshop skills if they want us to believe the stores are truly that empty. Come on, cropping is not that difficult, people!

View attachment 2111

Yep.

This picture is also quite bad at showing how empty the store shelves are. We have an even shorter section of 3 empty shelves, surrounded by fully stocked sections to both sides. Compare these pictures to those of bare shelves in Soviet era Russia if you want to see what really empty store shelves look like. Actually, either one of the above pictures could have been snapped at my local supermarket after a big sale, if not for the "Made in Socialism" sign in the latter one.

Except perhaps on Black Friday, does your local supermarket have daily lines like this:



And while there may be items on the shelves, what's important to consumers is whether the store has what they want.

Like toilet paper: http://www.bloombergview.com/articles/2013-09-27/venezuela-is-running-out-of-toilet-paper-

Or chicken and milk: http://panampost.com/pedro-garcia/2015/01/20/socialist-party-activists-keep-venezuelans-in-line/

 

[Trausti]

When you go to war with nature, nature will win.

Are you really arguing that capitalism is our natural state?

Not capitalism, per se. But incentive and competition. If it has to be imposed by the state through force, it's not nature. China is a good example of this. After it abandoned five-year plans and let the people make their own economic decisions, the qualify of life for the average Chinese became exponentially better.

 

[KeepTalking]

I really don't know, nor care, much about Venzuela either way. I do, however, want to comment on these pictures of "empty" shelves.



Above we have a picture of a section of shelves, in which four shelves seem to be mostly empty, yet the shelves above, below, and to both sides seem to be quite full. Also, above and to the left you can see a large mirror that shows longer sections of shelves on the other side of the store that seem quite full. Someone needs to brush up on their photoshop skills if they want us to believe the stores are truly that empty. Come on, cropping is not that difficult, people!



This picture is also quite bad at showing how empty the store shelves are. We have an even shorter section of 3 empty shelves, surrounded by fully stocked sections to both sides. Compare these pictures to those of bare shelves in Soviet era Russia if you want to see what really empty store shelves look like. Actually, either one of the above pictures could have been snapped at my local supermarket after a big sale, if not for the "Made in Socialism" sign in the latter one.

Except perhaps on Black Friday, does your local supermarket have daily lines like this:

View attachment 2113

And while there may be items on the shelves, what's important to consumers is whether the store has what they want.

Like toilet paper: http://www.bloombergview.com/articles/2013-09-27/venezuela-is-running-out-of-toilet-paper-

Or chicken and milk: http://panampost.com/pedro-garcia/2015/01/20/socialist-party-activists-keep-venezuelans-in-line/

As I said, don't know, don't really care, just wanted to comment on the pictures. Speaking of pictures, the one above could use a little help as well. Try putting the actual store in the frame, if they are waiting in line at a store. I have stood in longer lines than that waiting to get into a concert or sporting event. If I don't really care about Venezuela to begin with, it is going to be hard to convince me to care by showing me pictures that do not necessarily show what they are claimed to show.

 

[Trausti]

Socialists always need a bogeyman, don't they? It's never the obvious defect in the system itself; no, the failure of production is due to "counter-revolutionaries" or other capitalist saboteurs sight unseen. Socialist Venezuela will come to understand what the Soviet Union, Communist China, the Eastern Bloc, etc., learnt to their misery. When you go to war with nature, nature will win.

When you try to stop the oppression of the oligarchy you will be attacked for it.

That is the only lesson Venezuela is learning.

That is why when US unions fought for justice in the early 20th Century they were attacked and killed, many times by the police.

If your only tool is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.

 

[Trausti]

As I said, don't know, don't really care, just wanted to comment on the pictures. Speaking of pictures, the one above could use a little help as well. Try putting the actual store in the frame, if they are waiting in line at a store. I have stood in longer lines than that waiting to get into a concert or sporting event. If I don't really care about Venezuela to begin with, it is going to be hard to convince me to care by showing me pictures that do not necessarily show what they are claimed to show.

Fair enough. Do the Google, write in "Venezuela store lines," and view all the images displayed.

 

[Jayjay]

When you try to stop the oppression of the oligarchy you will be attacked for it.

That is the only lesson Venezuela is learning.

That is why when US unions fought for justice in the early 20th Century they were attacked and killed, many times by the police.

If your only tools are a hammer and a sickle, everything looks like a nail.

Fixed it for you.

 

[ksen]

Are you really arguing that capitalism is our natural state?

Not capitalism, per se. But incentive and competition. If it has to be imposed by the state through force, it's not nature. China is a good example of this. After it abandoned five-year plans and let the people make their own economic decisions, the qualify of life for the average Chinese became exponentially better.

Incentive and competition isn't restricted to just capitalist systems.

 

[untermensche]

Are you really arguing that capitalism is our natural state?

Not capitalism, per se. But incentive and competition. If it has to be imposed by the state through force, it's not nature. China is a good example of this. After it abandoned five-year plans and let the people make their own economic decisions, the qualify of life for the average Chinese became exponentially better.

Cooperation is the natural state of humans, not competition.

The reason humans are still here is because of their abilities to cooperate.

 

[laughing dog]

I think the evidence that Venezuela is currently a macroeconomic basket case is obvious. And, I think it is clear that the policies of Chavez and his successor helped create this mess. But if that is a damnation of "socialism", then clearly the last financial meltdown is a damnation of "capitalism". Okay, so now what?

 

[maxparrish]

I dispute all of them. Like any socialist-communist country, especially those of the third world, any "official" set of statistics from their government are unvetted and untrustworthy garbage. Socialist ideologues and government cadre's churn this stuff out like spittle - mostly for propaganda consumption.

If you have sources in data behind the graphs from credible international sources, cite them.

Oh my. All of them? Even the statistics from the Economic Commission on Latin America and the Caribbean?

The statistics on inflation come from the Central Bank of Venezuela.

Where do yours come from?

The national and international data sources are listed at the bottom of the table.

 

[untermensche]

I think the evidence that Venezuela is currently a macroeconomic basket case is obvious. And, I think it is clear that the policies of Chavez and his successor helped create this mess. But if that is a damnation of "socialism", then clearly the last financial meltdown is a damnation of "capitalism". Okay, so now what?

How is that clear?

The Venezuelan remnant of the oligarchy deliberately murdered people in the streets in their attempt to remove the elected leader.

You think they are above creating artificial shortages?

 

[laughing dog]

I think the evidence that Venezuela is currently a macroeconomic basket case is obvious. And, I think it is clear that the policies of Chavez and his successor helped create this mess. But if that is a damnation of "socialism", then clearly the last financial meltdown is a damnation of "capitalism". Okay, so now what?

How is that clear?

The Venezuelan remnant of the oligarchy deliberately murdered people in the streets in their attempt to remove the elected leader.

You think they are above creating artificial shortages?

I fail to see how any of that addresses the issue of the macroeconomic state of the Venezuelan economy. Inflation is measurably magnitudes higher. There are more shortages than before (even than under Chavez).

In my view, the underlying argument is that one system of economic organization is better than the other. In order to answer that question, one must agree on what "better" means, and the measure it. Even though the macroeconomic situation is worse now, it is entirely possible that the people of Venezuela are still better off than if "socialism" had not been enacted or if "socialism" had been enacted differently: something the OP cannot possibly address.

 

[untermensche]

Oh my. All of them? Even the statistics from the Economic Commission on Latin America and the Caribbean?

The statistics on inflation come from the Central Bank of Venezuela.

Where do yours come from?

The national and international data sources are listed at the bottom of the table.

Why don't you just say you get them from the Cato Institute?

And also say that these figures are not from any time Chavez was in power and not part of the graph I referenced?

- - - Updated - - -

How is that clear?

The Venezuelan remnant of the oligarchy deliberately murdered people in the streets in their attempt to remove the elected leader.

You think they are above creating artificial shortages?

I fail to see how any of that addresses the issue of the macroeconomic state of the Venezuelan economy. Inflation is measurably magnitudes higher. There are more shortages than before (even than under Chavez).

In my view, the underlying argument is that one system of economic organization is better than the other. In order to answer that question, one must agree on what "better" means, and the measure it. Even though the macroeconomic situation is worse now, it is entirely possible that the people of Venezuela are still better off than if "socialism" had not been enacted or if "socialism" had been enacted differently: something the OP cannot possibly address.

How are you determining the level of malfeasance on the part of Venezuelan companies and foreign companies in these shortages?

 

[laughing dog]

How are you determining the level of malfeasance on the part of Venezuelan companies and foreign companies in these shortages?

I'm not, because that is not relevant to the actual situation. It is relevant as to the reasons leading to it.

 

[untermensche]

How are you determining the level of malfeasance on the part of Venezuelan companies and foreign companies in these shortages?

I'm not, because that is not relevant to the actual situation. It is relevant as to the reasons leading to it.

Of course it is relevant.

How is the cause of something not relevant?

The US oligarchy and the remnant of the Venezuelan oligarchy have one goal in Venezuela.

Make things as bad as possible.

It is what the US does to any nation that tries to break from the oligarchical system dominated by the US.

 

[laughing dog]

I'm not, because that is not relevant to the actual situation. It is relevant as to the reasons leading to it.

Of course it is relevant.

How is the cause of something not relevant?

The US oligarchy and the remnant of the Venezuelan oligarchy have one goal in Venezuela.

Make things as bad as possible.

It is what the US does to any nation that tries to break from the oligarchical system dominated by the US.

Okay. Placing price ceilings on products generates shortages when the price is below the market price. That has nothing to do with oligarchies.

Personally, I find it hard to believe the USA really cares enough about Venezuela to devote much time or effort to destabilize the place.

 

[untermensche]

Of course it is relevant.

How is the cause of something not relevant?

The US oligarchy and the remnant of the Venezuelan oligarchy have one goal in Venezuela.

Make things as bad as possible.

It is what the US does to any nation that tries to break from the oligarchical system dominated by the US.

Okay. Placing price ceilings on products generates shortages when the price is below the market price. That has nothing to do with oligarchies.

You mean if the oligarchs don't get the profits they by nature deserve it naturally causes shortages?

 

[laughing dog]

Okay. Placing price ceilings on products generates shortages when the price is below the market price. That has nothing to do with oligarchies.

You mean if the oligarchs don't get the profits they by nature deserve it naturally causes shortages?

What "oligarchs" are you talking about and why would anyone expect any producer or supplier (oligarch or otherwise) to supply the amount of service or output at any price? Really, this boggles the mind.

And, if these "oligarchs" and the US are determined to make things as bad as possible, why on earth would any "socialist" gov't play along?

 

[untermensche]

You mean if the oligarchs don't get the profits they by nature deserve it naturally causes shortages?

What "oligarchs" are you talking about and why would anyone expect any producer or supplier (oligarch or otherwise) to supply the amount of service or output at any price? Really, this boggles the mind.

And, if these "oligarchs" and the US are determined to make things as bad as possible, why on earth would any "socialist" gov't play along?

The government does not have total control because it is a mixed economy not an entirely Socialist economy.

You have one part of the economy trying to make things as bad as possible by creating artificial shortages.

It is a difficult situation to deal with.