Venezuela just went full dictatorship

[untermensche]

Where does one find the "leftist party line"?

http://talkfreethought.org/member.php?484-untermensche

The left is first and foremost a supporter of democracy.

Except it doesn't actually do so very well.

You mean like in the US where oligarchy with democratic trappings exists instead of democracy?

Why are these recent lovers of Venezuelan democracy not concerned at all that the US has a far more corrupt system?

 

[maxparrish]

Unter, why are you dodging my question about your history as a communist or fellow-traveler? It would illuminate the source of your comments.

 

[untermensche]

Unter, why are you dodging my question about your history as a communist or fellow-traveler? It would illuminate the source of your comments.

You know in Spain the Anarchists were destroyed by the Communists.

Communism, at least as it existed in the Soviet Union and China is a top down authoritarian system.

Just like Capitalism.

They are cousins.

Anarchism is a different species.

 

[maxparrish]

Unter, why are you dodging my question about your history as a communist or fellow-traveler? It would illuminate the source of your comments.

You know in Spain the Anarchists were destroyed by the Communists.

Communism, at least as it existed in the Soviet Union and China is a top down authoritarian system.

Just like Capitalism.

They are cousins.

Anarchism is a different species.

You didn't directly answer my question. Are you now, or have you ever been, or ever called yourself, a communist (big or little c)? If not, how would you label your political beliefs, Anarchist?

 

[untermensche]

You know in Spain the Anarchists were destroyed by the Communists.

Communism, at least as it existed in the Soviet Union and China is a top down authoritarian system.

Just like Capitalism.

They are cousins.

Anarchism is a different species.

You didn't directly answer my question. Are you now, or have you ever been, or ever called yourself, a communist (big or little c)? If not, how would you label your political beliefs, Anarchist?

I did answer it.

My political beliefs are that we have to try to make what we have a little better. That is all that is possible.

So I will be voting for Bernie.

 

[maxparrish]

You didn't directly answer my question. Are you now, or have you ever been, or ever called yourself, a communist (big or little c)? If not, how would you label your political beliefs, Anarchist?

I did answer it.

My political beliefs are that we have to try to make what we have a little better. That is all that is possible.

So I will be voting for Bernie.

So then, you do not deny that you have identified yourself as a communist in the past - just as I recall. And when you then complain about other's following a party line, well, that pretty much sums up your unconvincing complaint.

 

[J842P]

I did answer it.

My political beliefs are that we have to try to make what we have a little better. That is all that is possible.

So I will be voting for Bernie.

So then, you do not deny that you have identified yourself as a communist in the past - just as I recall. And when you then complain about other's following a party line, well, that pretty much sums up your unconvincing complaint.

unter is an avowed anarchist. He is against the Boss.

 

[untermensche]

I did answer it.

My political beliefs are that we have to try to make what we have a little better. That is all that is possible.

So I will be voting for Bernie.

So then, you do not deny that you have identified yourself as a communist in the past - just as I recall. And when you then complain about other's following a party line, well, that pretty much sums up your unconvincing complaint.

I may have defended Marx's criticism of capitalism, which is spot on.

But the systems in the USSR and China that called themselves "Communist" were authoritarian nightmares.

Just as Capitalism is an authoritarian nightmare, destroying the planet and with it all human life.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

So then, you do not deny that you have identified yourself as a communist in the past - just as I recall. And when you then complain about other's following a party line, well, that pretty much sums up your unconvincing complaint.

I may have defended Marx's criticism of capitalism, which is spot on.

But the systems in the USSR and China that called themselves "Communist" were authoritarian nightmares.

Just as Capitalism is an authoritarian nightmare, destroying the planet and with it all human life.

Not all human life. Some of us will evolve to live underground as mole people.

 

[Nice Squirrel]

Not all human life. Some of us will evolve to live underground as mole people.

If that is true then I am doing something wrong.

 

[4321lynx]

Not all human life. Some of us will evolve to live underground as mole people.

If that is true then I am doing something wrong.

You need to mate with some prairie squirrels or groundhogs.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

Sight of any difference of opinion from the leftist party line.

I cannot speak for "some", only for myself, and you don't know when I first got eyes to see various things.

Where does one find the "leftist party line"?

For starters....

And what is the "leftist party line" on Venezuela?

Basically this.

The left is first and foremost a supporter of democracy.

True, but "the left" and "leftists" isn't always the same thing. The hippie fringe left wing of American Socialism tends to support a more idealistic vision of what Democracy is and how it works than reality can usually support.

It would be better if Venezuela had a better democracy.

And better if the US had one too.

"Better" implying the U.S. actually has a democracy. I am increasingly skeptical that that is the case.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

So then, you do not deny that you have identified yourself as a communist in the past - just as I recall. And when you then complain about other's following a party line, well, that pretty much sums up your unconvincing complaint.

I may have defended Marx's criticism of capitalism, which is spot on.

But the systems in the USSR and China that called themselves "Communist" were authoritarian nightmares.

Just as Capitalism is an authoritarian nightmare, destroying the planet and with it all human life.

You continue to defend dictatorship in Venezuela, though.

 

[untermensche]

I may have defended Marx's criticism of capitalism, which is spot on.

But the systems in the USSR and China that called themselves "Communist" were authoritarian nightmares.

Just as Capitalism is an authoritarian nightmare, destroying the planet and with it all human life.

You continue to defend dictatorship in Venezuela, though.

I'd have to cut out half my brain to conclude Venezuela was a dictatorship.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

You continue to defend dictatorship in Venezuela, though.

I'd have to cut out half my brain to conclude Venezuela was a dictatorship.

So only half your brain is a leftist fanatic?

 

[untermensche]

I'd have to cut out half my brain to conclude Venezuela was a dictatorship.

So only half your brain is a leftist fanatic?

Yes a fanatic that thinks Venezuela has been plagued with corruption long before now. Long before Chavez.

There is no pure history to return to.

At least under Chavez some of the Venezuelan citizens that had been abused for centuries had improvement in their lives.

As opposed to the wishes of his opponents with their glorious dream that the rich get richer and the poor stay poor.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

So only half your brain is a leftist fanatic?

Yes a fanatic that thinks Venezuela has been plagued with corruption long before now. Long before Chavez.

There is no pure history to return to.

At least under Chavez some of the Venezuelan citizens that had been abused for centuries had improvement in their lives.

As opposed to the wishes of his opponents with their glorious dream that the rich get richer and the poor stay poor.

As always when you eat the rich people benefit for a while. It's a one-shot benefit, though, and in the long run society pays the price. That's what we are seeing now.

 

[whichphilosophy]

Yes a fanatic that thinks Venezuela has been plagued with corruption long before now. Long before Chavez.

There is no pure history to return to.

At least under Chavez some of the Venezuelan citizens that had been abused for centuries had improvement in their lives.

As opposed to the wishes of his opponents with their glorious dream that the rich get richer and the poor stay poor.

As always when you eat the rich people benefit for a while. It's a one-shot benefit, though, and in the long run society pays the price. That's what we are seeing now.

He was using. Oil by discounting the price he provided cheap fuel even for people in other countries.

http://content.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1157172,00.html

Here is a cut and paste from TIME Magazine

QUOTE When you're a U.S. Congressman and 25,000 constituent families can't find affordable heating oil this winter, you tend not to care where help comes from. That's at least how U.S. Representative Chaka Fattah of Philadelphia felt last week when Citgo — the U.S.-based company owned by the government of Venezuela's left-wing President Hugo Chavez — delivered 5 million gallons of heating oil at a 40% discount to low-income Philadelphia residents. Fattah says he doesn't understand the objections of many congressional conservatives who feel U.S. cities should not be helping improve the image of Chavez, one of President Bush's most strident critics. "The U.S. buys 1.5 million barrels of oil from Venezuela each day at full price," says Fattah, "so why would anyone complain about getting some at almost half price?" UNQUOTE

Whatever his reasons I'm sure the recipients didn't complain. Why didn't the US government take the initiative to help its own poor?

ALSO


http://www.nytimes.com/2016/01/27/w...-see-opportunity-in-houses-he-built.html?_r=0

QUOTE: CIUDAD MIRANDA, Venezuela — Twenty thousand people live in this concrete bastion built by President Hugo Chávez. He gave them the keys, and they gave him their votes.

There was one thing Mr. Chávez promised but never handed over en masse, though: the property titles that would allow his supporters to sell their homes and cash out.

But now that Mr. Chávez’s old adversaries have taken over Venezuela’s Parliament, they are adopting the tactic and doing it one better. They want to give away the deeds to hundreds of thousands of homes that Mr. Chávez and his movement built — and win the loyalties of the nation’s poor for years to come.

The handover is as big as just about any of the Socialist-inspired giveaways Mr. Chávez ever orchestrated, and it comes with an incongruous twist. For years, the opposition cried foul over Mr. Chávez’s tendency to use the spoils of Venezuela’s oil wealth to hand out housing, calling it an obvious ploy to buy votes. UNQUOTE

What was wrong in supplying decent housing for the poor. Nigeria and South Africa could take the lead from this. The opposition had capitalized on this by giving over the title deeds. If giving people housing and ownership to housing is buying votes, so what. Politics in effect is often about buying support in one way or another.

 

[untermensche]

Yes a fanatic that thinks Venezuela has been plagued with corruption long before now. Long before Chavez.

There is no pure history to return to.

At least under Chavez some of the Venezuelan citizens that had been abused for centuries had improvement in their lives.

As opposed to the wishes of his opponents with their glorious dream that the rich get richer and the poor stay poor.

As always when you eat the rich people benefit for a while. It's a one-shot benefit, though, and in the long run society pays the price. That's what we are seeing now.

The rich are unnecessary and violent parasites.

The only hope for the planet is to rid ourselves of this infection.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

As always when you eat the rich people benefit for a while. It's a one-shot benefit, though, and in the long run society pays the price. That's what we are seeing now.

He was using. Oil by discounting the price he provided cheap fuel even for people in other countries.

http://content.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1157172,00.html

Here is a cut and paste from TIME Magazine

QUOTE When you're a U.S. Congressman and 25,000 constituent families can't find affordable heating oil this winter, you tend not to care where help comes from. That's at least how U.S. Representative Chaka Fattah of Philadelphia felt last week when Citgo — the U.S.-based company owned by the government of Venezuela's left-wing President Hugo Chavez — delivered 5 million gallons of heating oil at a 40% discount to low-income Philadelphia residents. Fattah says he doesn't understand the objections of many congressional conservatives who feel U.S. cities should not be helping improve the image of Chavez, one of President Bush's most strident critics. "The U.S. buys 1.5 million barrels of oil from Venezuela each day at full price," says Fattah, "so why would anyone complain about getting some at almost half price?" UNQUOTE

Whatever his reasons I'm sure the recipients didn't complain. Why didn't the US government take the initiative to help its own poor?

ALSO


http://www.nytimes.com/2016/01/27/w...-see-opportunity-in-houses-he-built.html?_r=0

QUOTE: CIUDAD MIRANDA, Venezuela — Twenty thousand people live in this concrete bastion built by President Hugo Chávez. He gave them the keys, and they gave him their votes.

There was one thing Mr. Chávez promised but never handed over en masse, though: the property titles that would allow his supporters to sell their homes and cash out.

But now that Mr. Chávez’s old adversaries have taken over Venezuela’s Parliament, they are adopting the tactic and doing it one better. They want to give away the deeds to hundreds of thousands of homes that Mr. Chávez and his movement built — and win the loyalties of the nation’s poor for years to come.

The handover is as big as just about any of the Socialist-inspired giveaways Mr. Chávez ever orchestrated, and it comes with an incongruous twist. For years, the opposition cried foul over Mr. Chávez’s tendency to use the spoils of Venezuela’s oil wealth to hand out housing, calling it an obvious ploy to buy votes. UNQUOTE

What was wrong in supplying decent housing for the poor. Nigeria and South Africa could take the lead from this. The opposition had capitalized on this by giving over the title deeds. If giving people housing and ownership to housing is buying votes, so what. Politics in effect is often about buying support in one way or another.

I don't see what your response has to do with my post.

I was pointing out that such eat-the-rich schemes always blow up eventually when they've eaten too much to sustain production. Presenting arguments for the benefits that will be obtained with the money is in no way a rebuttal of this. Of course you can have a utopia if you ignore reality, that doesn't make it a good plan!