Violent riots underway in Kenosha, WI

[Loren Pechtel]

Regardless of whether there was a gun in the car, it WAS another shooting of an unarmed black man. In the back. In front of his kids.

In other words, whether it was justified or not doesn't even matter.

No. You are so consistently wrong on this topic it's fucking scary.

The reality is wasn't justified. Period. End of fucking story.

I just pointed out that she was jumping to a conclusion and you proceed to jump to the same conclusion.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Some guy named "Mike the Cop" on twitter, who clearly doesn't have an agenda, and he's 'researched' this? How much bullshit can you pack into one post?

Flunk.

That's Facebook, not Twitter, and his page identifies him as "public figure" which I would think means they have identified that he really is a cop.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

If you really cannot understand that there is a whole range of possible outcomes between "shoot an unarmed man in the back" and "let him go", then even minimally intelligent discussion is impossible.

Name them. In detail so we can evaluate them. I'll be really generous and give you 10 seconds, that's far more time than the cops had.

 

[ZiprHead]

 

[Derec]

View attachment 29100

Except we now know that Jacob Blake was armed with a knife.

DOJ identifies officer who shot Jacob Blake as Rusten Sheskey; says Blake had knife

DOJ officials said Kenosha police were dispatched to a residence near 28th Street and 40th Avenue after a female caller reported that her boyfriend was present and was not supposed to be on the premises.
During the incident, officers attempted to arrest Blake, 29. DOJ officials said law enforcement deployed a Taser to attempt to stop Blake, however, the Taser was not successful. Blake then walked around his vehicle, opened the driver’s side door and leaned forward, officials said. While holding onto Blake’s shirt, Officer Sheskey fired his service weapon seven times "into Mr. Blake’s back."
[...]
During the investigation following the initial incident, Blake "admitted that he had a knife in his possession," officials said.
DCI agents recovered a knife from the driver’s side floorboard of Blake’s vehicle. A search of the vehicle located no additional weapons.

So let's stop with the "unarmed" nonsense, ok.

By the way, I saw this too:

Bond set at $1 million for man accused of trying to kill Kenosha police officer

Basically, a few weeks ago a car thief shot and injured a Kenosha police officer who then returned fire. The perp was apprehended days later in Indiana.


His court date is set for today according to that article, but I have not found anything about the outcome. I did find an article giving more information about the shooting, as well as stating that the perp was aided in his escape by several people.

Several people alleged to have helped man flee after Kenosha Police officer shot

Jonathan Massey, 29, is being held on $1 million bond, charged with attempted first-degree intentional homicide in the Aug. 8 shooting of Kenosha Police Officer Justin Pruett.
[...]
According to the criminal complaint, in an encounter partially captured on squad video, Massey is alleged to have shot Pruett in the abdomen after the officer deployed a Taser. Pruett then returned fire, striking Massey as he fled.

This is the reality of police work in this country.
'
About the accomplices:

According to court documents, several people were with Massey when the shooting occurred, and several helped him flee to Indiana.
Travinna Williams, 30, of Kenosha, is alleged to have driven Massey to a gas station in Harvey, Ill. where he was picked up by a man in a pickup truck. She was charged with harboring a felon and is being held on $50,000 bond.
[...]
Three women — Ebony Hughes, 27, and Shydaria Role, 23, both of Kenosha, and Desiree Brown, 26, of Racine — were each charged Tuesday with aiding a felon for their roles in allegedly helping Massey after the shooting. Brown and Hughes are alleged to have been among the people who witnessed the shooting.
According to statements in court, additional charges may be pending against others who allegedly aided Massey when he fled the area.

I bet there are some on here that fully support the actions of these people.

 

[Derec]

Just remember that the rioters and the protesters have little overlap. We keep seeing evidence that the violent ones are the white nationalist types, not the BLM types.

That's bullshit! Most of the rioting, looting, arson etc. comes from the #BLM, Antifa and other left-wing extremist groups. Just because there were a few instances of "white nationalist types" engaging in violence does not mean that they are responsible for the majority of the violence. Just because a single white nationalist broke a couple of windows at a Minneapolis AutoZone back in May does not mean that all the other looting, arson etc. (notably the Target, the Wells Fargo and the 5th precinct station) was not perpetrated by #BLMers, because it was.

The two lawyers (one Jamaican, other Pakistani) in NYC who made, distributed and threw Molotov cocktails at a police vehicle are not "white nationalist types" but #BLM supporters. People who occupied University Ave. in Peoplestown Atlanta with semiauto rifles (leading to the murder of an 8 year old girl) were #BLM supporters, not "white nationalist types". The people raging in Portland and Seattle are not "white nationalist types" even if they are mostly white - there are plenty of white left-wingers.
And the people rioting, looting and burning down Kenosha are BLMers too.

Kyle Rittenhouse was there specifically because of the #BLM violence that preceded him coming there. He reacted to left-wing violence that has been destroying the city for days.

 

[Derec]

You are the one giving him hero status.

I am not. I am merely observing what the media is doing.

Of course it would help.
It wouldn't make the issue of excessive use of force by the police go away. It wouldn't have caused Blake to lose his Constitutional rights. But it would at least lend credibility to the idea that he posed a threat.

Well, the info is out that Blake was armed with a knife. And yet the spoiled millionaires of the NBA are still refusing to work, and there will most likely still be violent rioting in Kenosha and elsewhere and more businesses will be looted and burned down.

 

[Derec]

Call it what you like; A man is still dead, and he is dead because he mistakenly believed that he was not living in a police state, and subject to being killed on the spot on the whim of a man who was sworn to serve and protect.

First of all, he is not dead. He is very much alive. His intestines are fucked up and his spinal cord may be partially severed, but he is alive. So you are wrong right off the bat.
Second, he was shot because he didn't want to go to jail on sexual assault warrant, so he fought with police, broke away and tried to access his car.
That was extremely stupid behavior.

I am sure it makes you feel much more comfortable to rationalise away his death as 'justified', but that is simply not the case.

He is not even dead, but in any case, I do think the shooting was justified.

It's completely unjustified for a law enforcement officer to kill a citizen who has not directly and clearly threatened his life, or the lives of others. Does that place officers at risk? Yes, of course. They accept that risk when they take the job.

Officers take on risk every day, yes. What they should not have to do is take undue risk.

 

[Arctish]

You are the one giving him hero status.

I am not. I am merely observing what the media is doing.

Show me the articles and videos in which the media present Blake as a hero.

I've seen plenty that present him as a victim, so don't bother with those. Show me the ones in which he is elevated to hero status. Otherwise, my comment about your post being a ridiculous self-own stands.

Of course it would help.
It wouldn't make the issue of excessive use of force by the police go away. It wouldn't have caused Blake to lose his Constitutional rights. But it would at least lend credibility to the idea that he posed a threat.

Well, the info is out that Blake was armed with a knife. And yet the spoiled millionaires of the NBA are still refusing to work, and there will most likely still be violent rioting in Kenosha and elsewhere and more businesses will be looted and burned down.

Is that the thing in his hand, or was it "in his possession" in the sense that he had it somewhere? Because we can all see him walking away from the cops and starting to climb into his car when he was shot, so it's not like he was about to stab someone.

I agree that there will probably be more rioting, because the thing that it fueling the riots isn't a single instance of cops shooting a guy who wasn't presenting a threat. It's multiple instances of unnecessary use of force in multiple jurisdictions in a society that so devalues the lives of black people that the usual reaction to another needless death is a collective shrug.

If I ask you to point out the moment it became necessary to shoot Blake, do you think you could do it?

 

[Derec]

Rioters riot. Stop clutching your pearls and acting all flustered and outraged. You're fooling nobody.

Of course rioters riot. Nobody is clutching pearls of trying to fool anybody. But rioters should be held criminally and civilly accountable for the damage they are causing.

If people don't want riots, they need to choose to either fix the underlying grievances,

Giving in to the demands of the rioters is basically appeasing terrorists. Rioters engage in violence and intimidation in order to achieve political aims, so they are by definition terrorists.

or accept deliberate police massacres. Because the only way to stop a riot from leading to injury and destruction of property is either to massacre the participants;

I do not think killing them all is necessary. Arresting and prosecuting them would suffice. Although, if killing rioters and continued lawlessness like we've had to endure since May are our only options, I know which one is preferable.

But again, I do not think that is necessary. We need strong law enforcement response, which must include DAs not taking the side of rioters like the Idiot of Multnomah County does.
Stronger federal presence would also be very helpful. FBI went after Black Panthers, BLM and Weather Underground in the 70s and we need a similar kind of response today. Perhaps we even need a revival of COINTELPRO.

You might start to help with the latter by refraining from using riots as an opportunity to dehumanise those involved.

Yeah, they have already done plenty to dehumanize themselves.

They're not acting like animals,

I am sorry, you are right with that first one. They act worse than any animal I have ever seen.
In blow for social justice, leftist mob topples Kenosha’s dinosaur statue

They are not animals, they are pond scum!

they're acting like humans who are powerless and oppressed have ALWAYS acted.

They are not "oppressed". They are just extremists.

 

[Derec]

On a side note, is everyone here comfortable with cops having less fire discipline than soldiers in the middle of a warzone? When did that become a good thing?

Soldiers in a warzone can call in an airstrike if things get too hairy. They also generally do not arrest people for civilian warrants. Apples and aircraft carriers.

 

[Derec]

On a regular basis white, gun-toting right wingers show up on the scene in the Michigan legislature or a government meeting in Idaho or a federal facility in Oregon or a ranch somewhere and despite an inordinate amount of firepower deployed with the expressed purpose of "fighting the evil government," the cops without fail go out of their way to de-escalate the situation. Semi-automatic weapons pointed directly at federal law enforcement officers by white militia folks? "Well, let's not let this get out of hand!"

There have been plenty of cases of heavily armed #BLM/Antifa types. CHAZ in Seattle. University Ave. by the torched Wendy's in Atlanta.


Black militias also occupied Stone Mountain a couple of months ago.

Then there is this guy in Austin. White, but a #BLM sympathizer.

Black guy pulled over for a broken tail light and he reaches for his cell phone? "Well, I thought it was a gun, knife, or other deadly weapon and I fired the entire contents of my magazine into his body mass because you just can't be too careful nowadays."

Cool story, bro!

 

[Arctish]

What irony?

The #BLM movement is all about valuing human life, specifically the lives of black people. It's all about having the Constitutional rights of blacks and whites equally respected. It's about having the police Protect and Serve people of color the same way they do for whites. It's about not being indifferent when people are beaten and killed.

LOL ! Quit clowning around, you couldn’t possibly have missed the “defund the police, all cops are bad” mantra from the BLM rabble. And when the chips are down they start yelling for the police to arrest people. Hilarious.

What do you think Black Lives Matter means? What sentiment do you think the people who say that phrase are expressing?

 

[Derec]

Its a clusterfuck when a police officer gets harmed. But when black people get killed, it doesn't matter, because their lives don't matter. That is really what you are saying.

Not at all. Unlike #BLM and the left, I do not make my judgment dependent on race. Police officers are going to value their own life higher than the life of some random suspect resisting arrest and going for his car. No matter his race.

And that is what the protests are all about. Any potential risk to the police, however small or theoretical, has to be eliminated, even if that means killing another human being. If an officer cannot tolerate even the smallest risk without killing somebody, maybe they shouldn't be a police officer.

Nobody is claiming anything about "even the smallest risk" so spare me the straw man! Blake already resisted arrest (they tried to use taser on him) for a felony warrant and broke free from the officers. Then he went for his car, which is an escalation because he can gain access to a firearm (see the Daniel Clary case).

It seemed to me that that he was trying to get to his car, perhaps to reassure his kids, perhaps to disengage from the confrontation. Why should we assume that his intention was to harm anybody? The only people who pose a risk to the safety of people at the scene are the police, with their guns drawn, waving them around. And they follow through by shooting a man seven times in the back. If you don't understand why someone might see this as being fucked up, you are badly broken.

We cannot speculate about his motivation. Maybe he will offer an explanation at some point, maybe he will not.

But I think it is certain he wanted to avoid going to jail. Which makes it very dangerous for police officers and bystanders. A cornered animal (and human beings are animals) is a dangerous animal.

 

[Derec]

Even if he had warrants, why did they have to resort to deadly force? Where were their tasers? What about other non deadly force?

They tried all that. You obviously have not been paying attention, or were just watching MSM whose coverage of this case is criminally bad.

 

[skepticalbip]

What irony?

The #BLM movement is all about valuing human life, specifically the lives of black people. It's all about having the Constitutional rights of blacks and whites equally respected. It's about having the police Protect and Serve people of color the same way they do for whites. It's about not being indifferent when people are beaten and killed.

LOL ! Quit clowning around, you couldn’t possibly have missed the “defund the police, all cops are bad” mantra from the BLM rabble. And when the chips are down they start yelling for the police to arrest people. Hilarious.

What do you think Black Lives Matter means? What sentiment do you think the people who say that phrase are expressing?

It depends on who is chanting it. Some claim to mean they don't want blacks killed, some in BLM protests chant that they want dead cops, some in BLM protests chant "kill whitey". If the BLM organization really wants to spread a peaceful message then they really should denounce those advocating violence to protect their 'label'.

 

[Derec]

Claiming that getting into a vehicle is a clear and present danger is the perfect example of "anything can happen, so open fire".

It is not. The judgment of him getting into a car as "clear and present danger" is predicated on the perp's behavior immediately preceding it. Him trying to enter the car does not exist in a vacuum, bereft of any context. You are ignoring them trying to arrest him for a violent felony and he resisting and breaking free.

 

[J842P]

It's multiple instances of unnecessary use of force in multiple jurisdictions in a society that so devalues the lives of black people that the usual reaction to another needless death is a collective shrug.

Yeah, that's a stupid take though. The police kill plenty of white people too, more in fact, and plenty of unarmed white people, in similar circumstances to all the recent publicized situations involving black men. And there is even less of a reaction. But people aren't really interested in analyzing these things dispassionately.

 

[Patooka]

On a side note, is everyone here comfortable with cops having less fire discipline than soldiers in the middle of a warzone? When did that become a good thing?

Soldiers in a warzone can call in an airstrike if things get too hairy. They also generally do not arrest people for civilian warrants. Apples and aircraft carriers.

So you think most cops require the AirCav to fulfill their role. Good to know. Also have you seen the shit most cops are equipped with nowadays? They have better kit than the guys who stormed the beaches on Normandy. And if you are implying that the typical day of a police officer is comparable to that of June 4, 1944; let me be the first to call bullshit. Paramedics and firefighters encounter more dangerous situations than the average police officer - they kill by a far less margin. The problem is lack of oversight and severe lack of training.

 

[Derec]

Who said anything about getting into the car? The mere presence of that car presents an imminent danger to the officers.

A perp known to be violent should be presumed willing to use the car as a lethal weapon as well. Cops have been killed by being struck/dragged by vehicles.

A Virginia police officer was killed when a car dragged her during a traffic stop

This very recent case has a happier ending, but the officer still suffered "significant injuries".
Officer dragged during Alpharetta traffic stop; driver kills himself, police say