Volkswagen commits massive fraud, House introduces bill to make it harder to sue Volkswagen as a class

[KeepTalking]

That depends on driving conditions, but I saw one report that said as much as 40% higher in some situations. The big problem with diesel emissions has always been particulates, which are mostly carbon.

Now you're getting closer to the answer.

The emissions standard is a number that is less than 1%. VW's vehicle has a 40% difference in emissions. The actual emissions is also less than 1%, but 40% higher than government dictat.

So either way, emissions are less than 1%. VW is such a horrible polluter with this vehicle.

1% of what?

 

[dismal]

Here is some info on the issue including an attempt at a quantification of the benefits the drivers have been receiving in terms of performance and fuel economy:



So, yes, the drivers did get more power and better fuel economy.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_emissions_scandal

With better fuel economy, you use less gas, which generally means less pollution. I wonder how the actual total amount of emissions between the two models compares, for the same trip. That is, is it possible the one with better mileage actually pollutes less overall, even though its tested emissions are higher? Perhaps we should be considering mpg also in the emissions test criteria.

Yes, I believe in this case the result would be modestly less of some pollutants but substantially more NOx.

Assuming the relevant comparison is a VW with/without the defeat device.

Of course, these diesels have far better mileage than other cars so if the cost of the fix resulted in diesels becoming a smaller share of the market you could be trading a 55 mpg car for a 30 mpg car.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

That depends on driving conditions, but I saw one report that said as much as 40% higher in some situations. The big problem with diesel emissions has always been particulates, which are mostly carbon.

Now you're getting closer to the answer.

The emissions standard is a number that is less than 1%. VW's vehicle has a 40% difference in emissions. The actual emissions is also less than 1%, but 40% higher than government dictat.

So either way, emissions are less than 1%. VW is such a horrible polluter with this vehicle.

Sounds like you'd enjoy the breezes in Delhi or Beijing. Breathe deeply.

 

[ronburgundy]

That depends on driving conditions, but I saw one report that said as much as 40% higher in some situations. The big problem with diesel emissions has always been particulates, which are mostly carbon.

Now you're getting closer to the answer.

The emissions standard is a number that is less than 1%. VW's vehicle has a 40% difference in emissions. The actual emissions is also less than 1%, but 40% higher than government dictat.

So either way, emissions are less than 1%. VW is such a horrible polluter with this vehicle.

He's mistaken, it is NOT 40% higher, it is 40 times higher, meaning 4000% higher.

 

[ronburgundy]

Financial cost to drivers is not the only issue. Drivers were made to commit crimes and pollute their environment disease causing agents at 4000% beyond what that thought they were, due to deliberate efforts by VW to lie to customers and the government. That alone should make VW liable for many thousands of $ to both the drivers and the EPA for every such vehicle sold.

 

[dismal]

Financial cost to drivers is not the only issue. Drivers were made to commit crimes and pollute their environment disease causing agents at 4000% beyond what that thought they were, due to deliberate efforts by VW to lie to customers and the government. That alone should make VW liable for many thousands of $ to both the drivers and the EPA for every such vehicle sold.

It should make them liable to breathers, not drivers. I'm sure the EPA will hit them with a nice fine on the breather's behalf.

 

[ksen]

Financial cost to drivers is not the only issue. Drivers were made to commit crimes and pollute their environment disease causing agents at 4000% beyond what that thought they were, due to deliberate efforts by VW to lie to customers and the government. That alone should make VW liable for many thousands of $ to both the drivers and the EPA for every such vehicle sold.

It should make them liable to breathers, not drivers. I'm sure the EPA will hit them with a nice fine on the breather's behalf.

i guess misrepresenting products you sell is perfectly ok with free marketers.

good to know

 

[dismal]

It should make them liable to breathers, not drivers. I'm sure the EPA will hit them with a nice fine on the breather's behalf.

i guess misrepresenting products you sell is perfectly ok with free marketers.

good to know

Where do you imagine I said misrepresenting the product was OK?

 

[ronburgundy]

Financial cost to drivers is not the only issue. Drivers were made to commit crimes and pollute their environment disease causing agents at 4000% beyond what that thought they were, due to deliberate efforts by VW to lie to customers and the government. That alone should make VW liable for many thousands of $ to both the drivers and the EPA for every such vehicle sold.

It should make them liable to breathers, not drivers. I'm sure the EPA will hit them with a nice fine on the breather's behalf.

Not only are the drivers breathing even more of the toxins than the avg person (everytime they are at a light or in traffic), but they were made into unwitting criminals causing harm to their children and community. They were led by VW lies into making choices that caused others harm. That is clear cut psychological damage to the drivers, easily worth thousands per driver, on top of many thousands per car to the EPA. In addition, given the clear evidence that this was conspiratorial level fraud designed to deceive and undermine law enforcement efforts, many VW execs should see serious prison time for it.

 

[dismal]

It should make them liable to breathers, not drivers. I'm sure the EPA will hit them with a nice fine on the breather's behalf.

Not only are the drivers breathing even more of the toxins than the avg person (everytime they are at a light or in traffic), but they were made into unwitting criminals causing harm to their children and community. They were led by VW lies into making choices that caused others harm. That is clear cut psychological damage to the drivers, easily worth thousands per driver, on top of many thousands per car to the EPA. In addition, given the clear evidence that this was conspiratorial level fraud designed to deceive and undermine law enforcement efforts, many VW execs should see serious prison time for it.

They are not being made criminals. If so, what crimes are they being charged with?

There seems to be a strong need top make shit up in this thread.

 

[ksen]

i guess misrepresenting products you sell is perfectly ok with free marketers.

good to know

Where do you imagine I said misrepresenting the product was OK?

The part where you said VW wasn't liable to drivers.

 

[dismal]

Where do you imagine I said misrepresenting the product was OK?

The part where you said VW wasn't liable to drivers.

How about the part where I said VW was liable to breathers?

Did you miss that?

 

[ksen]

The part where you said VW wasn't liable to drivers.

How about the part where I said VW was liable to breathers?

Did you miss that?

Nope, but the people you are classifying as "breathers" as opposed to "drivers" aren't the ones that were lied to by VW when they bought their car.

So from the words that you have actually been typing you must not believe VW damaged the drivers at all when VW misrepresented their product to the drivers and so VW did nothing wrong in their misrepresentation to the drivers.

If you meant something else maybe try typing different words and putting them in a different order.

 

[ronburgundy]

Not only are the drivers breathing even more of the toxins than the avg person (everytime they are at a light or in traffic), but they were made into unwitting criminals causing harm to their children and community. They were led by VW lies into making choices that caused others harm. That is clear cut psychological damage to the drivers, easily worth thousands per driver, on top of many thousands per car to the EPA. In addition, given the clear evidence that this was conspiratorial level fraud designed to deceive and undermine law enforcement efforts, many VW execs should see serious prison time for it.

They are not being made criminals. If so, what crimes are they being charged with?

The drivers were led to commit the crime of driving illegal cars. The fact that the government is choosing to recognize that their illegal actions were due to them being deceived doesn't mean they didn't do something illegal. It means that VW execs are the one's who should be held criminally responsible and put in prison.

So, what about the rest? What about the fact that they were led by deliberate deception to act in ways that increased serious health threats to themselves, their kids, and their community? Do you deny that this warrants liability to the drivers above and beyond any population-general fines and jail time that should be paid for deliberately pouring illegal levels of toxins into the environment?

 

[dismal]

How about the part where I said VW was liable to breathers?

Did you miss that?

Nope, but the people you are classifying as "breathers" as opposed to "drivers" aren't the ones that were lied to by VW when they bought their car.

They (breathers) are the ones that suffered the damages of VW's act. Damages, as it turns out, are a pretty important element in our tort system.

 

[dismal]

They are not being made criminals. If so, what crimes are they being charged with?

The drivers were led to commit the crime of driving illegal cars.

Can you cite the statute to which you are referring?

 

[ronburgundy]

Nope, but the people you are classifying as "breathers" as opposed to "drivers" aren't the ones that were lied to by VW when they bought their car.

They (breathers) are the ones that suffered the damages of VW's act. Damages, as it turns out, are a pretty important element in our tort system.

Knowledge that their driving harmed others is psychological damage to the drivers. In addition, the drivers were especially exposed to the toxins that VW deliberately spewed into the air.

But you are right about all breathers having a claim. Thus, every person on the planet has a legit financial claim against VW via the tort system, independent of any fines via EPA or government agencies.

 

[ksen]

Nope, but the people you are classifying as "breathers" as opposed to "drivers" aren't the ones that were lied to by VW when they bought their car.

They (breathers) are the ones that suffered the damages of VW's act. Damages, as it turns out, are a pretty important element in our tort system.

Right, so you are still maintaining that the drivers were not harmed by VW's lying to them. The logical conclusion is that you don't think lying to customers is wrong.

QED

 

[dismal]

They (breathers) are the ones that suffered the damages of VW's act. Damages, as it turns out, are a pretty important element in our tort system.

Knowledge that their driving harmed others is psychological damage to the drivers.

Well, I did open the door earlier for these VW drivers to pay reparations to compensate us for the free-riding they have been doing and offset the better power and mileage they have been enjoying.

 

[dismal]

They (breathers) are the ones that suffered the damages of VW's act. Damages, as it turns out, are a pretty important element in our tort system.

Right, so you are still maintaining that the drivers were not harmed by VW's lying to them. The logical conclusion is that you don't think lying to customers is wrong.

QED

Let me put this into an analogy you may understand:

You ask a girl that you think is hot out on Saturday. She says "OK, but I'm not going to blow you." On Saturday you go out and she blows you. You were lied to but you are not a victim.