War And Ukraine Respomses

[steve_bank]

Another real world current events moral topic.

How should Ukrainians act morally?

Someone tries to kill you, al your friends, and all your family. Destory your schhols and hospitals. Destroy yuur food. Do you respond with moral bounds or do whatever t takes in the face of an existential threat.

In the news Russia claims to have a video showing Russian soldiers being executed.

Given the evidice for torture, rape, and nurder by Russians is summary execution immoral for Ukrainians?

Given the unjustified invasion of Ukraine and Putin's declaration of intending to destroy the Ukrainian nation and culture, should Ukraine restrain itself?

In WWII Pacific island campaigns fanatical Japaneses soldiers and civilian as well holed up in caves refusing to surrender. Gasoline and explosves wre used to kill them.

There was fire bombing of Japan and and Germany. The Japanese fire bombing was far worse than the atomic bombs.

Do you allow you or your country to be extermnated for moral principles?

There are threads on politics where the war, Russia, and Putin are dicscussed. The thread is not about the morality of Putin.

This thread is not about the Ukraine war per se, but the morality involved in the Ukrainian response.

Should any Russian soldier be shot on sight?

If I were a cold and hungry Ukrainin I'd probably wnat to kill any and all Ruddians, justfiably so.

 

[bilby]

Another real world current events moral topic.

How should Ukrainians act morally?

The same ways as always.

Someone tries to kill you, al your friends, and all your family. Destory your schhols and hospitals. Destroy yuur food. Do you respond with moral bounds or do whatever t takes in the face of an existential threat.

These are not different options. An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind.

In the news Russia claims to have a video showing Russian soldiers being executed.

Given the evidice for torture, rape, and nurder by Russians is summary execution immoral for Ukrainians?

Yes, of course it is. How would killing somebody without first determining their guilt help to deter the actually guilty parties? Summary executions are no more effective in reducing torture, rape and murder than random killings.

If there was a serial killer loose in Seattle, would shooting a few random citizens, in the hope that one of them was the perpetrator, or to make the perpetrator feel scared that he might be next, be a good plan?

Given the unjustified invasion of Ukraine and Putin's declaration of intending to destroy the Ukrainian nation and culture, should Ukraine restrain itself?

Yes. Because not doing so would achieve nothing to defend their nation or culture, and could even be a further cause of its destruction.

In WWII Pacific island campaigns fanatical Japaneses soldiers and civilian as well holed up in caves refusing to surrender. Gasoline and explosves wre used to kill them.

This may well have been morally justified in many cases. It's not indiscriminate killing, if you are under a credible and direct threat from the specific people you kill, and they refuse to stand down from being a threat to you.

I am not sure why you think that the use of gasoline and explosives is relevant.

There was fire bombing of Japan and and Germany. The Japanese fire bombing was far worse than the atomic bombs.

Yes, Americans and their allies committed many war crimes. Your tribe don't have a monopoly on good behaviour, and your enemies didn't have a monopoly on monstrous behaviour. This isn't news to anyone; And that people who did the wrong things won isn't evidence that doing the wrong things is necessary, nor even helpful, in attaining victory.

Do you allow you or your country to be extermnated for moral principles?

No. Do you need to? Also, no.

This is a false dichotomy.

There are threads on politics where the war, Russia, and Putin are dicscussed. The thread is not about the morality of Putin.

There's no need for a thread on Putin's morality; We all agree (barbos probably excepted) that he's a vile and morally bankrupt barbarian. His actions demonstrate this loud and clear.

This thread is not about the Ukraine war per se, but the morality involved in the Ukrainian response.

Should any Russian soldier be shot on sight?

No, of course not. Allowing Russians the opportunity to surrender is beneficial to the Ukrainian cause in myriad ways.

If I were a cold and hungry Ukrainin I'd probably wnat to kill any and all Ruddians,

Probably. People in extreme conditions are often driven to pointless or even counterproductive attitudes.

justfiably so.

That you think so says something quite unpleasant about your character, and about the lack of thought behind your choices.

Criminality might be mitigated by the extreme circumstances, in that a person is not a threat to society once those circumstances are resolved; But justice isn't subject to mitigation. Killing a specific person or persons who are trying to kill you is just; Killing anyone who shares a wider characteristic not related to their wrongdoings is unquestionably unjust and immoral.

Being Russian doesn't make someone guilty in the invasion of Ukraine, nor of war crimes committed by those invaders. It's therefore irrational, unjust, and immoral to want to "kill any and all Russians", in response to crimes committed by a small number of powerful people, led by Putin, who happen to be Russians. Russian conscripts are as much victims of Putin as are the Ukrainians. The solution is to kill Putin; Killing conscripts doesn't achieve that objective, and is less effective towards it than letting them surrender.

You might as well say that the 9-11 attackers were morally justified in trying to kill any and all Americans; Their reasons for doing so were indistinguishable from yours.

If you can understand why 9-11 wasn't morally justifiable, then you should understand why the ideas you're promoting here are also not morally justifiable.

 

[Unknown Soldier]

Another real world current events moral topic.

How should Ukrainians act morally?

Someone tries to kill you, al your friends, and all your family. Destory your schhols and hospitals. Destroy yuur food. Do you respond with moral bounds or do whatever t takes in the face of an existential threat.

In the news Russia claims to have a video showing Russian soldiers being executed.

Given the evidice for torture, rape, and nurder by Russians is summary execution immoral for Ukrainians?

Given the unjustified invasion of Ukraine and Putin's declaration of intending to destroy the Ukrainian nation and culture, should Ukraine restrain itself?

In WWII Pacific island campaigns fanatical Japaneses soldiers and civilian as well holed up in caves refusing to surrender. Gasoline and explosves wre used to kill them.

There was fire bombing of Japan and and Germany. The Japanese fire bombing was far worse than the atomic bombs.

Do you allow you or your country to be extermnated for moral principles?

There are threads on politics where the war, Russia, and Putin are dicscussed. The thread is not about the morality of Putin.

This thread is not about the Ukraine war per se, but the morality involved in the Ukrainian response.

Should any Russian soldier be shot on sight?

If I were a cold and hungry Ukrainin I'd probably wnat to kill any and all Ruddians, justfiably so.

I'm not a war expert, but I hope that the Ukrainians can free themselves from the Russian invasion with as little bloodshed as possible. If Russian soldiers can be taken prisoner, then they should be held as POWs and treated humanely. If any Russian soldiers are a deadly threat, then using deadly force against them may be necessary.

 

[Rhea]

In a coldly pragmatic view, I believe the most usefl thing Ukrainians can do is capture the soldiers, treat them humanely and ask NATO to help hold them until the war is over. While being held in humane conditions, the soldiers would then go home knowing that the propaganda is false, and be less likely to fight again in future.

Humane treatment and effective deterrent end up being the same behavior.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

In a coldly pragmatic view, I believe the most usefl thing Ukrainians can do is capture the soldiers, treat them humanely and ask NATO to help hold them until the war is over. While being held in humane conditions, the soldiers would then go home knowing that the propaganda is false, and be less likely to fight again in future.

Humane treatment and effective deterrent end up being the same behavior.

While I like the idea how can NATO hold POWs? Wouldn't that be an act of war on NATO's part?

 

[Rhea]

Good question - I had thought that if they provided ”support to ensure legal treatment” it would be a support issue. So I dunno. Can they?

 

[steve_bank]

In a coldly pragmatic view, I believe the most usefl thing Ukrainians can do is capture the soldiers, treat them humanely and ask NATO to help hold them until the war is over. While being held in humane conditions, the soldiers would then go home knowing that the propaganda is false, and be less likely to fight again in future.

Humane treatment and effective deterrent end up being the same behavior.

I agree except for NATO.

WWII Japan Was known for brutality of prisoners. The Battan Death March.

Yet when it ed we do not seek vengeance and reroted to a legal process. Some were executed, some jailed, and some releasd.

At Nuremberg the Russian wanted to line up any and all Nazis and execute them summary.

There is a story and an old movie of an American lawyer who was sent to Nuremberg as part of the trails.

Ben Ferencz - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Someone who was not there could never really grasp how unreal the situation was ... I once saw DPs [displaced persons] beat an SS man and then strap him to the steel gurney of a crematorium. They slid him in the oven, turned on the heat and took him back out. Beat him again, and put him back in until he was burnt alive. I did nothing to stop it. I suppose I could have brandished my weapon or shot in the air, but I was not inclined to do so. Does that make me an accomplice to murder?[9] You know how I got witness statements? I'd go into a village where, say, an American pilot had parachuted and been beaten to death and line everyone one up against the wall. Then I'd say, "Anyone who lies will be shot on the spot." It never occurred to me that statements taken under duress would be invalid.[9]

When the Missouri was tied up in Bremerton I visited with a friend. There was a picture of the surrender and audio playing. Wainwright who survived Battan was there. I said to my friend it was remarkable how they all maintained composure especially Macarthur. The senior American and British staff all lost friends and family. My friend said that is how tey waned to be remembered.

We don't know what local Ukrainians are doing to Russians. Zelensky said there is a general hatred of all things Russian. That being said they appear to be remrably self restained.