What's a staged Christian? Someone posing as a Christian?
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What's a staged Christian? Someone posing as a Christian?
Chicago style.
southernhybrid
Contributor
Without getting into any debate, I just want to say that 1I Crying was a member of Secular Cafe. He obviously isn't the most sophisticated person, but from what I remember of him on the other board, he is certainly a Christian, not someone posing as a Christian. Regardless of what I think of his beliefs, I think he had good, but misguided intentions.
ideologyhunter
Contributor
That also applies to Jesus Christ. Allegedly.
Ok.
Thank you.
Ohhh, He's sophisticated alright. So much so, that none of you will likely understand just how much so. Hahaha.
Thanks Sohe for clearing that up. Good to be back my Southern Hemispheric friend. I had thought that Sohe was your name and you were from India or something. : ) Truth. And you're right. Sophistication is not my bag. But yes, I am a Christian ya'll. But not your regular variety. Liberal is probably a liberal description. And if you asked me who the 12 disciples were, I could not do that. However, I do believe that I have an overall good grasp of the basics.
My apologies in advance for not being on the ball when it comes to this thread. I just do not and will not have time to keep up with the barrage of posts, though I will try to do my best in getting back in a timely fashion. Right now though, it's 11.20 pm or so and I have 2 hours of actual work to do before I get up at 6.30 and go to my regular slavorama. Looking forward to some free time to post some more goodness for ya'll.
One thing Id like to add - I am not your typical door knockin Christian. I am with my friends as Sohe is with his friends. I do NOT bring up or talk about religion. The majority of my friends I would say fall into the Secular catagory.
I do, however, feel invited to discuss this topic with you folks here, probably moreso in a forum called talkfreethought than i did at Secular cafe. I did give fair warning in the title though - warning - may contain Christians.
And what is this thread about, as asked DrZoidberg. I would just say that this is your thread/opportunity to discuss religious matters with a real life Christian, however unsophisticated. My apologies.
Also, I didn't primarily come here to try and save/convert people. I am happy to be able to just share my viewpoint with others - Christian or otherwise. Of course, being a Christian does have, built into it, the desire to try and do that - but I will have you know - I do not judge any of you, I am happy to leave that to God, and the only one that I am really trying to save, is me.
For my close friends, who I do not discuss any of this with, I fear that when the truth is revealed (the truth that I believe in) that they will be rightful upset that I did not try harder to get through to them. On the other hand, I trust that God, in his utmost wisdom, will sort it all out for the best.
As with you folks, I will continue to tell you what I do believe, and that is ... the water IS free! You don't have to go to Church or listen to Stryper or any of that. So drink up.
Peace.
1I
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DrZoidberg
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Ok. Cool. Welcome.
Keith&Co.
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You say that, yet your post is almost entirely about you.
Atheos
Veteran Member
I too welcome 1ICrying.
That original post certainly invited the dog-pile that ensued. I hope that we can enjoy spirited yet respectful dialog. In that vein I will endeavor to be patient while you attend to the barrage of challenges to your OP.
That original post certainly invited the dog-pile that ensued. I hope that we can enjoy spirited yet respectful dialog. In that vein I will endeavor to be patient while you attend to the barrage of challenges to your OP.
southernhybrid
Contributor
And, I want to apologize to 1I if he felt insulted when I said he wasn't the most sophisticated person.....
It's just that some of the posters here seem to feel that they hold the intellectual, educational high ground and your initial post was a bit difficult to understand as to what you were trying to say. There is nothing wrong with not being "sophisticated", I usually enjoy people who are down to earth, and not pretentious a lot more than I do people who are always trying to impress others with their intellectual sophistication.
So, I am relieved to see that we didn't completely run you off. I also encourage you to see if there are other places on the forum where you might feel comfortable, and not just concentrate on explaining your religious beliefs to us. I have a lot of nice Christian friends but we never discuss religion. We are proof that atheists and Christians can find other areas of common ground, while maintaining a healthy respect of each other's character.
Btw, I"m a she, not a he and it's sohy, not sohe. That name was the result of some former posters giving me a nickname, which I decided to use as a screen name in other places.
It's just that some of the posters here seem to feel that they hold the intellectual, educational high ground and your initial post was a bit difficult to understand as to what you were trying to say. There is nothing wrong with not being "sophisticated", I usually enjoy people who are down to earth, and not pretentious a lot more than I do people who are always trying to impress others with their intellectual sophistication.
So, I am relieved to see that we didn't completely run you off. I also encourage you to see if there are other places on the forum where you might feel comfortable, and not just concentrate on explaining your religious beliefs to us. I have a lot of nice Christian friends but we never discuss religion. We are proof that atheists and Christians can find other areas of common ground, while maintaining a healthy respect of each other's character.
Btw, I"m a she, not a he and it's sohy, not sohe. That name was the result of some former posters giving me a nickname, which I decided to use as a screen name in other places.
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Hey Sohy,
No worries. How could you know just how sophisticated I am from a few posts. Here I thought you were a man from India. I was also mixed up, thinking Southern Hemisphere instead of Southern Hybrid. So, what's the hybrid? And what do you mean 'misguided'?
From what I recall, you are a retired nurse who was a Christian, but that started to unravel when someone commented 'You think too much'. Was that the start of it? Can you tell me what the other main things are that shook your belief?
Sure, we can talk about other things than religion. What do you have in mind? I'm just tuning in to my nightly Stephen Colbert monologue. We could talk about Trump and decline of American civilization - but that might be painful. Or how Canadian culture/civilization is superior to the US. Haha.
My idea though, for this thread, like the thread over in Secular Cafe, was more along the lines of 'Prove or disprove the Bible'. I originally checked in over there to practice my skills in the realm of apologetics (which for the unsophisticated out there is from the Greek ἀπολογία, "speaking in defense") the religious discipline of defending religious doctrines through systematic argumentation and discourse.
So, if we do get in to that, please don't take it personally, I'm just practicing. But be forewarned, I will do my best to carpet bomb the area with Christian apologetics. And you, of course, will be trying to show me the light with the finest scientific reasonings/findings/evidence etc. And we'll see who cracks. Apparently it's usually the Christian who cracks. But as Sohy may recall, I am so far brainwashed, since birth actually, that you have your work cut out for you.
So, who has the smoking gun? Why is the Bible and God and Christ all a bunch of hogs wash.
On my side, I have a mountain of Biblical Archeology that just increases year by year. What about that crazy Noah's Ark story. Check out this youtube video and tell me that you belief in Noah's Ark does not increase.
What about those crazy unicorns. There was a Siberian Unicorn - check it out.
Don't worry Keith and Co, more on the way. (sorry to start off with just one).
Rhea - I have a wonderful life, don't fret.
Abaddon - you might not be looking for a way out of here - but come death - that's where you'll be. I'm trying to help you except the salvation that will keep you in here.
Ideology hunter - who was Joseph's daddy? Not sure.
Atheos - you are completely correct. I see now that Pilate was mentioned by Josephus, who also mentions Jesus and John the Baptist. So, more proof that they all existed. I know some of you don't believe that there was even a Jesus. Heck, some people don't believe in the Holocaust despite films of the event, so....what's a modicum of evidence these days. And yes, without cost. You don't have to go to Church or any of that other stuff. Don't need no ticket, just thank the Lord; and get on board.
Skeptical Bip - Cannabalism? Really? Get over it.
atrib - I look forward to more of your examples. As for the 6000 year old earth, find for me in the Bible where it says that. Sure, a bunch of bone head 'christians' might have thought that up, but that is not what we all believe. Of course, the world is billions of years old. Those first 6 days mentioned in the Bible are symbolic.
And what's wrong with the Bronze age. Was Jesus supposed to come back 5 years ago, or 10...what is acceptable to you fine sir? Here we are now still talking about it - so it really has stood the test of time. No one on your 'side' in all that time has proven it wrong. If they had - there would not be 33% of this World believing it. No, you are not a slave. And that is your problem. You will not recognize or bow down to God. And he, being God, will have the last say. It's his way - the way of love - or....wherever you're headed. Your bitterness is evident.
Rhea - I don't speak for all those so called 'christians'. I shudder to even lump my self in with them, but at the end of the day - I believe in the Bible, and want to share with you just how on earth I can believe all these crazy stories and such - which is what I have been doing here. To be a good Christian, Jesus said love God and love your neighbour. Love and Love. Apparently God IS love - and what way can you (especially you parents out there) think would be the biggest sacrifice that an entity could make to display the meaning of love/sacrifice --- that of their child --- which is what happened.
Cheerful Charlie - the four gospels do have different narratives - and obviously they are not going to match up 100%. Even if you asked four people to tell you what happened at a recent event, you will get different views. Now add a hundred or so years on, take away technology, and I think we have a fairly accurate record given the circumstances.
As for the quote, it is confusing, but here is at least one explanation. It is not from me, but you can read more here. It includes this: Jesus was not predicting that his Second Coming would occur within the lifetime of some of his hearers. He wasn’t speaking of the Second Coming at all.v He was referring to the fulfillment of Daniel 7, his reception of the kingdom from the Father, and this was fulfilled within the lifetime of some of his hearers (cf. Matt. 28:18).vi
So Cheerful Charlie. Cheer up. There is hope!
And back to Sohy. You're right, humans are judgemental and we are told by the Bible not to be. Judge not lest you be judged. Why would God be interested in us you wonder. Because God made us. God loves us. Maybe God needed some real friends - not just robots he created, but beings with free will. So here we are with the free will to choose good or bad, life or death, positive or negative - like two sides of a magnet, with positive and negative, we need to choose which end we will be on. I'm choosing positive/good/love. Those in the middle, like Luke warm water, will be spit from his mouth.
Thank you all for reading. Check out those links and let me know if you think that's Noah's Ark or not. I think the evidence is pretty compelling. So, before you're all 100% sure that it's all bull...
That's all I got for now. Peace ya'll
1I
Do tell: how can you believe all those crazy stories?
C_Mucius_Scaevola
Veteran Member
My belief in Noah's Ark does not increase.
That was easy.
Apart from the fact that Ron Wyatt has been dismissed as not at all credible by any number of archaeologists, historians, bible scholars and even other creationists, and the fact that his own colleague and co-promoter of the supposed Ark site told a court in sworn testimony that the claims were "absolute BS" ...
Even if we assume, purely for the sake of the discussion, that what was found there is actually a ship or boat, it still does not follow that it's "Noah's Ark". Simply put, the mountains of geological and historical evidence that show no such thing as a world-wide flood ever took place preclude "Noah's Ark" from ever being a thing in the first place. And one vaguely ship-shaped rock formation, touted by a man whose motto was "If it won’t help somebody get to heaven I don’t want to do it" and who allowed his pro-biblical pre-assumptions to dictate his approach to archaeology, dents that evidence not a jot.
The only way to make my "belief in Noah's Ark increase" would be, first, to demonstrate conclusively that there is scientific evidence for a world-wide flood having occurred, then to show that Noah existed and built a ship that could withstand such a deluge, despite the biblical description of it not matching anything that would be seaworthy.
Keith&Co.
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Would you settle for some facetious one-line answers?
Keith&Co.
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So, you accept many reasons for the stories to be LESS dependable, as evidence, but still think that what's left is accurate?
Why?
The gospels are written anonymously, 3rd person, and cover events the disciples COULD NOT have witnessed. Why do you assume them to be accurate?
southernhybrid
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I left conservative Christianity when I was 18, while attending a fundamentalist Christian college. I dropped out after one semester because I couldn't take the foolishness anymore. The "you think too much comment" was something that a church friend said to me after I told her that what we had been taught in church was total nonsense. She was telling me to just accept Christianity and not to think "too much" about it. I very rarely argue about religion because it very rarely changes anyone's mind and I honestly don't care what others believe as long as they don't try to push their beliefs into government or use their religion to judge me. When I was growing up, the fundamentalist Baptists that were in my childhood church had respect for the separation of church and state. My own mother was relieved when prayer was taken out of the public schools. That has all changed and it appears to most of evangelicals want their personal moral values to be pushed on the rest of us. I have a Catholic friend that disagrees with that. I respect her. She, for example has told me that just because she is personally against divorce and abortion, doesn't mean she should have the right to push her moral values on anyone else. That's the way it should be. Of course, there are human universals, that are condemned in all societies, such as murder or theft.
I lost my beliefs because they were absurd, and there was no way that I could believe such nonsense anymore. I spent about 8 years considering other religions. I considered myself a liberal Christian for a short time. I married a Baha'i when I was 20 and tried to adopt his religion, but despite being a much kinder, more reasonable religion compared to evangelical Christianity, it was still impossible for me to accept it as some ultimate truth. Eventually, I came to terms with what I consider to be a fact, there are no gods, and while we don't understand everything about the universe, the idea that some supernatural being started it up and rules it is as ridiculous to me as are beliefs in garden fairies, Santa, or any other myth. I do believe that mythology has always been something that humans find attractive, and sometimes it's helpful for forming social support systems, charity, purpose etc. It's when people take their myths in too literal a way, that religion has the potential to become harmful. Look at history for many examples.
I'm pretty sure that you can find some atheists here who may enjoy debating you if you bomb the place with Christian apologetics, but I doubt I will be one of them. My own mother and I never allowed our very different beliefs to fracture our relationship, once she accepted that I no longer believed like she did. That's the way it should be, but both parties have to respect each other's right to investigate truth for themselves, even if they reach very different conclusions.
Anything else that you want to discuss belongs in one of the other forums. The political forum is almost always the most active one here.
I don't remember much of what you posted at SC, but you seemed like a well meaning person, who of course imo, had some of the same beliefs that I no longer found valid. Your arguments never made sense to me, but you probably feel the same about some of the points that some atheists make.
Since I don't believe in the concept of freewill when it comes to what we believe or what values we hold, it's very easy for me not to judge other people. ( my belief is that we are all products of our genetic and environmental background but there are times when new influences or circumstances can change people ) I realize that most Christians believe that we all have total freewill, something that I strongly reject. But I digress. It's always good to see new members here, especially those that can argue/debate without taking what others say too personally. Have fun!
C_Mucius_Scaevola
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That's probably all I'd get, so I suppose I'd have to. Wouldn't increase my belief, though.
Keith&Co.
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And there we differ.
I don't want religion legislated, BUT I get tickled pink when they try to judge me.
Because they don't just judge us, do they? I mean, any number of people can watch me go by their cubicle in my dinosaur costume and judge my professionalism. But they did it quietly. Maybe in conversations I wasn't invited to. But I never got any feedback on their feelings about my workplace demeanor.
The people who think God is against miscegenation could also watch me and my wife go by and quietly judge me. Or us. But so many think that because it's God's opinion, they have a need to share that opinion with me. Of course, that's an invitation for ME to share MY opinion of their skybuddy...
Atheos
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I don't think it is valid to compare skepticism about the Jesus narrative with skepticism about the Holocaust.
Here's how such a comparison would work:
Let's fast-forward 1000 years into the future. Historians are investigating the holocaust of the mid 20th century. They look back and discover that everything written about the holocaust was written in the year 1990 or later. They can't find a single newspaper clipping or article from 1945 that mentions the war, Adolf Hitler, the bombing of Hiroshima or Nagasaki, the horrific treatment of the Jews, none of it. But suddenly there was this proliferation of movies, articles and books. The earliest discernible book, written around 1990, just ends with no clear winner of the war, as if everyone had simply lost interest and moved on. A later book copies most of the first book but adds some more details that seem to go against the historical record and adds a clear winner of the war (the allies) along with atomic bombs being dropped on Berlin and Tokyo. Another book mostly agrees with that one but instead the atomic bombs are dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. On and on it goes with more details being added the further away from the alleged dates in question one gets.
Historians could argue, "Well it's clear that something happened, otherwise we wouldn't have all these writings about it. We have external references to Winston Churchill, Joseph Stalin and Franklin D. Roosevelt, and these stories talk about those people, so the parts where they talk about Heinrich Himmler and the atrocities he orchestrated must be true as well."
I think it would be reasonable to ask, "Surely if something had happened of that magnitude there would be at least one surviving newspaper article from the period in question. How is it that nobody seemed to be talking about any of this until decades later?"
The holocaust evidence is not like that. The evidence for it is contemporary, multi-faceted and pervasive. It would take a distortion of reality on the order of "The Matrix" to fabricate that magnitude of evidence.
But the "Jesus" evidence is very much what I described in my hypothetical scenario. Somehow "Jesus" managed to work all these great miracles in or around Jerusalem, gather hordes (at least 7,000 at one time) of followers, create a big scene overturning the moneychanger's tables at the temple, etc., all without attracting the attention of even one secular historian of his day. Fourty five or more years of the sound of chirping crickets before the bombs start going off. And the "bombs" weren't historians in any sense of the word. They were agenda-filled propaganda writers trying to convince someone of their religious beliefs.
Assuming the mentioning of Jesus in Josephus isn't entirely forged (which is still possible), Josephus was writing in the year 90 C.E. or later. The christian religion already had a footing by then and was able to effect even what secular historians might write.
I do not apologize for being skeptical about this.