*Warning: May contain nuts, Christians and/or both

[Rhea]

You and other Christians have been told time and again that this false analysis, “either it’s ALL TRUE or he’s a liar, no other scenario is considered!” is one of your major thinking flaws. There are a lot of other possibilities. What’s interesting to me is how we can tell you all these other more valid possibilities, and you come back and repeat just these same two over and over again.

It's strategic.

What do you say, 1I? Is it deliberate that you erase the reality of people debunking your claim? Keith may have a point here, that this is how Christians are taught to debate. Gaslight. Pretend no one said it. And repeat your first argument again as if it had never been refuted in great detail.

Is that true that you use strategic amnesia affect?
If not, why do you make this claim despite it being already refuted?

 

[Keith&Co.]

Is that true?
If not, why do you make this claim despite it being already refuted?

If not, why do so many if them argue this way?

 

[Rhea]

Is that true?
If not, why do you make this claim despite it being already refuted?

If not, why do so many if them argue this way?

I mean, you have a point. They do have a very uniform method. If this were an SAT, they'd be accused of cheating.

 

[C_Mucius_Scaevola]

Hey Gang,

You say there is no evidence bu there is plenty of evidence. I was just reading about all sorts of archeological evidence. Here's one about Exodus. Who said that Exodus never happened. In 2018, they found (more) evidence.

10. EVIDENCE FOR THE EXODUS? NEW DISCOVERIES SUPPORT BIBLICAL ACCOUNT

Instead of how Exodus and Joshua describe the Israelites escaping Egypt, crossing the Jordan River, and conquering the land, many contend they were already part of an indigenous population in Canaan.

A recent discovery, however, provides physical evidence to support the biblical account.

Excavations in Khirbet el-Mastarah, an area in the Jordan Valley, have unearthed numerous nomadic or semi-nomadic enclosures and structures dating back to the time of the Exodus, according to an article in Biblical Archaeology Review from Ralph Hawkins and David Ben-Shlomo.

Evidence of nomadic structures across a certain time period is not evidence of a mass migration of hundreds of thousands of people at a specific time between a specific staring point and a specific destination. That there were nomadic or semi-nomadic people in that area at that time is, as far as I know, not disputed, and in any case, trivial. Idoubt that many archeologists would jump to the conclusion that "nomadic remains in the Jordan Valley ca. 1500-1200 BCE = every word in Exodus is True!!111!!"

In general, I guess the big evidence was that Jesus fulfilled all the prophecies, including conducted PLenty of miracles.

Only if you accept the Xian interpretation of prophecies that either:
a) weren't about a messiah; or
b) described a whole other messiah than the purported Xian one; or
c) weren't even prophecies but descriptions of current/ past events.

We also have in the Bible the parables and wisdom of Jesus. He spoke with authority, and said YES - I am the Messiah! For me and other Christians, we read what Jesus said and we feel that this is authentic.

Ummm ... you may not have noticed, but nobody here really gives a shit about what you - or any other christian - might "feel". What can you demonstrate?

Other than that, I was looking back at our thread to find instances of where ya'll seem to think that the Bible story is just to old to be relevant.

Atrib said "I don't believe the Bible because it is a collection of Bronze Age mythology that is unsupported by evidence."

That's not about it being too old. That's about it being from a cultural perspective far less in advance of the current perspective. It's about it being the accumulated wisdom of a society which knew far less about the cosmos than is currently known, a society which assumed supernatural causes for phenomena which we have long known to be purely natural in origin.

Well, I just put one piece of evidence above, so that's untrue.

As I mentioned above, it's not necessarily "evidence" for that for which you want it to be "evidence".

And Sohy, you called it an 'old mythology'. That's as far as I got, but I know there's more. Someone else said that if it were true, God would just send us some updated info, like a DVD. Maybe it's coming.

I tend more to the idea that if it were true, "god" would have continued his communication with humanity, or at the very least with his "chosen" people, the Israelites.

Does Christianity bring peace. Probably not. Jesus said that it would bring division. But it does say to love your neighbour as yourself is the greatest of commandments, and also to love your enemies. I don't think the flaw is in the religion, but with people who have not grasped this love part.

Of course. The fault is never in the belief system, but in those who "misapply" the belief system. Because to say otherwise would be to criticise the belief system, and we can't have that, can we. That would introduce elements such as doubt, curiosity, and a spirit of inquiry, and those ... well, those are just fatal to belief systems, 99 times out of 100.

Is God an evil tyrant? I don't think so. If he does kill some people along the way, perhaps innocent people even, what do you think happened to them on the other side. Maybe they were heavily compensated. Maybe they didn't really experience much pain. We don't know. But to ever state that God is ever in anywaywrong does not make sense. It's like a canvas or a painting telling the painter that he's doing it wrong. We cannot judge God.

Emmm ... you just did. Judge "god", that is. You judged "him" and found in "his" favour. My judgment would be a little less positive, but it's no more, and no less, a judgment than your positive one. Don't kid yourself that your judgment in "god's" favour isn't a judgment, but a default setting. It hasn't been that for at least the last 150 years.

Anyhow, I have to go to bed.

Nighty night

1IC

Sleep tight.

 

[SLD]

I just want to point out that atheism as a belief is far older than Christianity. For the first 13,771,998,000 years in the universe (plus or minus 59 million years) no one believed in Christianity.

It’s also a far older belief in the history of western civilization, by at least a few hundred years.
SLD

 

[Atheos]

Serial killers often think of their actions as "Works of Art." Who are we to question the morality of these artists?

Producers of computer viruses take great pride in the artistry with which they sabotage data for millions. Who are we to question the morality of these artists?

The complete historical archaeology of ancient Egypt and nearby kingdoms we have available today is notably devoid of any references to Pharoah's armies being suddenly compromised due to boils, starvation (cattle and crops destroyed by fiery hail and locusts) or being drowned in the Red Sea. Strangely, not one of Egypts rivals decided to take advantage of the opportunity to swoop in and pillage what was left while Pharoah's armies were reeling from these disasters. There was never any interruption of trade between Egypt and the surrounding nations during any such period.

 

[Keith&Co.]

Strangely, not one of Egypts rivals decided to take advantage of the opportunity to swoop in and pillage what was left while Pharoah's armies were reeling from these disasters.

Obviously God's hand of protection was over Egypt, once they fid what God asked and finally let the slaves go, something Pharaoh wanted to do right away, but God took away his free will.

 

[1ICrying]

Hey Gang,

How's it goin? It seems you weren't much impressed with my last bit of archaeological evidence in support of the Exodus. I admit, it wasn't entirely
100% smoking gun type stuff. And no, I do not base my entire belief in Exodus
or the Bible on some nomadic remains.

(while we're at it, I am aware that Ron Wyatt has little to no credibility in his outlandish claims. Still, the Noah's ark remains that we discussed earlier, do seem semi-convincing. Do I say 100% it is. No. Do I think it could be? I'd say it's possible. My belief here is I guess similar to my belief in aliens. I can't say they don't exist, but I am skeptical)

What is true though, is that as time plows on, more and more archaeological findings are coming to light, and as they do, it would seem to me that they are confirming the Bible, not debunking it.

I want to take you now to my next example, Avaris. If what has been found in this ancient City is true, then we would have to say that the story of Joseph in Egypt is 100% confirmed. Please check this link to find the story.

https://www.academia.edu/35532146/The_Seal_of_Joseph_in_His_Palace_at_Tell_Ed-Daba_Re-edited_

This link includes a detailed look at what the author believes to be the 'Seal of Joseph', as well as the stories about Joseph's tomb and statue.

I look forward to hear what you skeptics come back with. If the nomadic remains story is only a 1 or 2 on the 'proof metre', (which I would agree with), then I would say that the findings in Avaris rank a 9 or 10 and I believe you would have to be quite bent to say that these findings have nothing to do with the Biblical story of Joseph.

Meanwhile, some of you seem to think that I am avoiding questions/arguments etc. Let me remind you that there are 10 of you and 1 of me (roughly), so I can't keep up with every question (I have a day job) but if there is something major I am missing/some question that you really need me to answer, please remind me and I will try to focus on that in my next post.

In addition, please take some time to read the link to Avaris (or your own link, there are plenty) and I look forward to hearing your answers. What would you rate this story out of 10 as far as credibility/plausibility go? Not 100% convinced? That's okay - the archeological findings are coming fast and furious thanks to LIDAR and such - and the findings, like this one, are backing the Bible, not detracting. That's a scientific fact Jacks (and Jills, Rhea and Sohy).

God bless and Bon appetit,

1IC

 

[Cheerful Charlie]

There was no Exodus. The Bible claims that the Israelites were in Egypt 430 years starting with 75 people only, illiterate sheep herders.
And left in large numbers, 600,000 men who could wield a sword, Yet early Israelites were typical Canaanites. Their languages had few loan wards from Egypt, their language was typical Canaanite Semitic. You would expect a people who starting with 75 people who spent centuries in Egypt would have adopted many Egyptioan words, grammar and syntax into their spoken languages. They would have adopted Egyptian written language, Demotic, those who could read and write. We see not a single example of that in early Israel. Theiur pottery is typical Canaanite, you'd expect that early Israelite pottery would demonstrate typical Egyptian styles picked up in Egypt over 430 years. Likewise we would expect a lot of typical Egyptian culture adaptations, we see none of that at all.


This is a set of very good reasons expert archaeologists do not believe the Bible is in any way historical, that Exodus is in any way true.
We would expect that a people that starting with 75 shepherds who had spent 430 years in Egypt would have adopted many Egyptian cultural manners, but these are utterly absent from early Israelite civilization.

 

[Atheos]

The existence of a city referenced in a story is not evidence the story is true. Atlanta exists. Scarlet O'Hara and Rhett Butler were fictional. On the other hand, neither of them did anything in the story that defied the laws of physics or principles of biology. Their story is a lot more credible.

 

[Keith&Co.]

And no, I do not base my entire belief in Exodus
or the Bible on some nomadic remains.

I am curious, what do you think we base our DISbelief on?

You offer an archaeological tidbit and claim the Bible is confirmed. But you don't seem to understand why this is not compelling to the skeptic.

the Noah's ark remains that we discussed earlier, do seem semi-convincing.

See, here i'd say that you're already convinced of the story, so you accept the stone formation as Noah's Ark.
Archaeology doesn't work that way.

and I believe you would have to be quite bent to say that these findings have nothing to do with the Biblical story of Joseph.

There's a Statue of Liberty in the harbor in New York City. One would have to be quite bent to say that the 2nd Ghostbuster movie had nothing to do with any decent tour of NYC. That is, however, a FAR fucking cry from the 2nd Ghostbuster movie being 100% confirmed.

Meanwhile, some of you seem to think that I am avoiding questions/arguments etc. Let me remind you that there are 10 of you and 1 of me (roughly), so I can't keep up with every question (I have a day job)

Most of us do, you know.

But the advantage of the forum format is that you can answer every question you choose to, given time. It's not like a conversation at the water cooler, where the topic flows on whether you're finished or not.
So your objection is pretty uncompelling, too.
Sadly, you might have to spend what time you have here answering questions RATHER than merely rolling on to the next example, but that's a choise you make.

 

[Rhea]

If the nomadic remains story is only a 1 or 2 on the 'proof metre', (which I would agree with),

Why would you bring a 1-2 argument to the board? No respect for the audience?

 

[Keith&Co.]

If the nomadic remains story is only a 1 or 2 on the 'proof metre', (which I would agree with),

Why would you bring a 1-2 argument to the board? No respect for the audience?

Salesman technique. He won't tell you the chair he's offering you is tacky until you say it's tacky. Then he agrees and compliments you on your taste. 'Saw thru that, did you? You would not believe how many people we get who let that pattern in their homes. But i like you. You're discerning. But my manager is trying to move this shit. Let's look over here at the better stuff.'

Now you and he are accomplices to the purchase, Fight The Man(ager)!

Hopefully, his willingness to admit that it's crap proof will weaken you resolve to disprove the 3-4 evidence.