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Warning--they're coming for the internet

Loren Pechtel

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(Sorry for the URL shortener, the real URL breaks the board although I can't find the evil character.)
https://stanford.io/2uXZc8a

This is talking about encryption but note that the threat is far wider than this. You either check 100% of user content (note that this includes things like reviews and e-mail) for bad things or you do whatever the government decides you should do. Right now they're after being able to see anything you encrypt but how hard would it be to require you not to contradict what His Flatulence says?
 
This is talking about encryption but note that the threat is far wider than this. You either check 100% of user content (note that this includes things like reviews and e-mail) for bad things or you do whatever the government decides you should do. Right now they're after being able to see anything you encrypt but how hard would it be to require you not to contradict what His Flatulence says?

Good. Fucking. Luck. With the way PGP keys (and TOR) work, it's open source. There's no way to prevent people from using their own user certificates, and gives ng the government the finger. If they prosecute people who use those technologies, that is tantamount to a violation of free speech: I have the right to speak something to someone even and especially if some other party cannot understand what I say.

You might as well make it illegal to do a complicated math problem in public; that is exactly what the art of encryption is.
 
This is talking about encryption but note that the threat is far wider than this. You either check 100% of user content (note that this includes things like reviews and e-mail) for bad things or you do whatever the government decides you should do. Right now they're after being able to see anything you encrypt but how hard would it be to require you not to contradict what His Flatulence says?

Good. Fucking. Luck. With the way PGP keys (and TOR) work, it's open source. There's no way to prevent people from using their own user certificates, and gives ng the government the finger. If they prosecute people who use those technologies, that is tantamount to a violation of free speech: I have the right to speak something to someone even and especially if some other party cannot understand what I say.

You might as well make it illegal to do a complicated math problem in public; that is exactly what the art of encryption is.

And how do you plan to exchange keys securely unless you can do it in person?

Besides, the real issue is the power it gives the government over any website that accepts any form of user content.
 
This is talking about encryption but note that the threat is far wider than this. You either check 100% of user content (note that this includes things like reviews and e-mail) for bad things or you do whatever the government decides you should do. Right now they're after being able to see anything you encrypt but how hard would it be to require you not to contradict what His Flatulence says?

Good. Fucking. Luck. With the way PGP keys (and TOR) work, it's open source. There's no way to prevent people from using their own user certificates, and gives ng the government the finger. If they prosecute people who use those technologies, that is tantamount to a violation of free speech: I have the right to speak something to someone even and especially if some other party cannot understand what I say.

You might as well make it illegal to do a complicated math problem in public; that is exactly what the art of encryption is.

And how do you plan to exchange keys securely unless you can do it in person?

Besides, the real issue is the power it gives the government over any website that accepts any form of user content.

Perfect forward encryption is always possible using the tried and true diffie-helmann and it's analogues, same as it's ever been; and there are variants that are hardened against QC
 
And how do you plan to exchange keys securely unless you can do it in person?

Besides, the real issue is the power it gives the government over any website that accepts any form of user content.

Perfect forward encryption is always possible using the tried and true diffie-helmann and it's analogues, same as it's ever been; and there are variants that are hardened against QC

Your crypto is only as good as your key exchange. Otherwise you can be man-in-the-middled.
 
And how do you plan to exchange keys securely unless you can do it in person?

Besides, the real issue is the power it gives the government over any website that accepts any form of user content.

Perfect forward encryption is always possible using the tried and true diffie-helmann and it's analogues, same as it's ever been; and there are variants that are hardened against QC

Your crypto is only as good as your key exchange. Otherwise you can be man-in-the-middled.

Diffie-Helmann IS the key exchange.

Granted there are plenty of asymmetrical encryption models that don't require ad-hoc key exchange, allowing exchange of public keys instead, and which aren't particularly vulnerable to SHOR's or variants
 
This is talking about encryption but note that the threat is far wider than this. You either check 100% of user content (note that this includes things like reviews and e-mail) for bad things or you do whatever the government decides you should do. Right now they're after being able to see anything you encrypt but how hard would it be to require you not to contradict what His Flatulence says?

Good. Fucking. Luck. With the way PGP keys (and TOR) work, it's open source. There's no way to prevent people from using their own user certificates, and gives ng the government the finger. If they prosecute people who use those technologies, that is tantamount to a violation of free speech: I have the right to speak something to someone even and especially if some other party cannot understand what I say.

You might as well make it illegal to do a complicated math problem in public; that is exactly what the art of encryption is.

Simply sell it as "it's illegal to speak anything but English".. and half of America will vote for it out of racist reflex. That establishes the foundation to challenge encryption as "speaking a foreign language".
 
This is talking about encryption but note that the threat is far wider than this. You either check 100% of user content (note that this includes things like reviews and e-mail) for bad things or you do whatever the government decides you should do. Right now they're after being able to see anything you encrypt but how hard would it be to require you not to contradict what His Flatulence says?

Good. Fucking. Luck. With the way PGP keys (and TOR) work, it's open source. There's no way to prevent people from using their own user certificates, and gives ng the government the finger. If they prosecute people who use those technologies, that is tantamount to a violation of free speech: I have the right to speak something to someone even and especially if some other party cannot understand what I say.

You might as well make it illegal to do a complicated math problem in public; that is exactly what the art of encryption is.

Simply sell it as "it's illegal to speak anything but English".. and half of America will vote for it out of racist reflex. That establishes the foundation to challenge encryption as "speaking a foreign language".

And then First Amendment challenges tear it down. It wouldn't last a day in court.
 
 Diffie–Hellman key exchange

Here is how it works. I'll use the typical names for participants: "Alice" and "Bob".

Alice and Bob agree on a shared key, A, a key that can safely be made public.

Alice then generates a secret key, B, and Bob a secret key, C.

Alice then composes a combined key, A+B, and sends it to Bob.
Likewise, Bob composes a combined key, A+C, and sends it to Alice.

Alice then adds B to A+C giving A+B+C. Likewise, B adds C to A+B giving A+B+C.

Alice and Bob now have the same secret key: A+B+C


In actual practice, the "addition" here is some much more complicated and difficult-to-crack operation. If one has A and A+B, it ought to be difficult to find B. But this operation ought to have (A+B)+C = (A+C)+B.

For example, one can use the multiplicative group of integers modulo some positive integer p, starting with some generator value g, a value that is relatively prime to p.

Alice has secret number a and transmits g^a mod p to Bob
Bob has secret number b and transmits g^b mod p to Alice
Alice then calculates (g^b)^a mod p = g^(a*b) mod p
Bob then calculates (g^a)^b mod p = g^(a*b) mod p

They both now have secret key g^(a*b)

This setup works because of the difficulty of doing discrete logarithms, as they are called - finding a from g^a, g, and p.

An alternative uses "elliptic curves", curves in x-y space with formula y^2 = x^3 + c1*x + c0. One can define an addition operation: for two points on the curve, find a line between them and then where the line intersects the curve a third time. Then reflect by y to get the sum point. One can repeat the addition to do multiplication by an integer. The arithmetic on the points themselves is done in a finite algebraic field, a mathematical entity that generalizes integers modulo some prime number under addition and multiplication.
 
There are other cryptography algorithms where some of the encryption keys can be made public, algorithms like RSA.

A code can be broken if one goes through all the possible keys for its cryptographic algorithm, looking for decryptions that look sensible. This means that the longer the keys that a code uses, the harder it is to break.
 
They need to go just the opposite. And guarantee everyone the right to privacy over IP. And secure in place technologies that monitor anyone attempting to hack others. Attempting to steal data and/or identity is no different than breaking into a store a night.

This is what our federal government should be doing for us. Instead of spending trillions on a kinetic military the next war could be fought in cyber space. For if a foreigner can prevent their enemy from communicating they will have defeated them.
 
Never put anything in writing. Use trusted couriers like your brother in law. Don't use telephones.

I looked at this years back for a thread. There are court rulings going back to the 30s 40s over whether there is any expectation of privacy over a telecommunications carrier.

As I recall if there is a third party no privacy exists. Today cell phone records are not private. The act of the carrier maintaining records in the first place negates any expectation of privacy. Or so I remember it.

The issue goes back to the early days of telephones and wiretapping. It was called wiretapping because that is what you did, you tapped into the wires. Early devices were old style vinyl record recorders.

Back in the 90s there was a program called Dragon I believe. It was uncovered when a woman used the word bomb in an email describing her kids theatrical performance. The email had been scanned by an application and she was put on a list that caused her some problems.

Back in the 80 I attended an unclassified presentation on a system that could read any cell phone communications. They could break in and insert audio seamlessly. There was something in the 90s about China rerouting large numbers of emails through their servers transparently.


Anyone who thinks there has ever been any real privacy across all telecommunications just has not been paying attention. Who knows how secure the cloud really is.

I expect the NSA has arrays of cheap cdeicated computers to brute force cracking.

One technique supposedly secure is the 'one type pad'.

You have a sequence of random symbol for text. Encoder encrypts on page at a time form a pad. The descriptor has the same pad. It is an old technique. No statistical patterns.
 
Never put anything in writing. Use trusted couriers like your brother in law. Don't use telephones.

I looked at this years back for a thread. There are court rulings going back to the 30s 40s over whether there is any expectation of privacy over a telecommunications carrier.

As I recall if there is a third party no privacy exists. Today cell phone records are not private. The act of the carrier maintaining records in the first place negates any expectation of privacy. Or so I remember it.

The issue goes back to the early days of telephones and wiretapping. It was called wiretapping because that is what you did, you tapped into the wires. Early devices were old style vinyl record recorders.

Back in the 90s there was a program called Dragon I believe. It was uncovered when a woman used the word bomb in an email describing her kids theatrical performance. The email had been scanned by an application and she was put on a list that caused her some problems.

Back in the 80 I attended an unclassified presentation on a system that could read any cell phone communications. They could break in and insert audio seamlessly. There was something in the 90s about China rerouting large numbers of emails through their servers transparently.


Anyone who thinks there has ever been any real privacy across all telecommunications just has not been paying attention. Who knows how secure the cloud really is.

This is just stupid technological illiteracy.

PGP and all manner of other encryption models are perfectly secure, and available as a layer on all manner of communications. Asymmetrical encryption is far more secure than sneakernet.
 
Never put anything in writing. Use trusted couriers like your brother in law. Don't use telephones.

I looked at this years back for a thread. There are court rulings going back to the 30s 40s over whether there is any expectation of privacy over a telecommunications carrier.

As I recall if there is a third party no privacy exists. Today cell phone records are not private. The act of the carrier maintaining records in the first place negates any expectation of privacy. Or so I remember it.

The issue goes back to the early days of telephones and wiretapping. It was called wiretapping because that is what you did, you tapped into the wires. Early devices were old style vinyl record recorders.

Back in the 90s there was a program called Dragon I believe. It was uncovered when a woman used the word bomb in an email describing her kids theatrical performance. The email had been scanned by an application and she was put on a list that caused her some problems.

Back in the 80 I attended an unclassified presentation on a system that could read any cell phone communications. They could break in and insert audio seamlessly. There was something in the 90s about China rerouting large numbers of emails through their servers transparently.


Anyone who thinks there has ever been any real privacy across all telecommunications just has not been paying attention. Who knows how secure the cloud really is.

This is just stupid technological illiteracy.

PGP and all manner of other encryption models are perfectly secure, and available as a layer on all manner of communications. Asymmetrical encryption is far more secure than sneakernet.

Nothing is perfectly secure on any key based system. A bigger key means more time for trial and error. The test is if the algorithm is know how long does it take to crack. Efficacy is based on how long it needs to be secret.

There are always weaknesses. Anyone who thinks they are safe from the intelligence services of the major powers I not paying attention. Brute force attacks require arrays of computers.

Turing devised an early computer for brute force attacks.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public-key_cryptography

Weaknesses[edit]
As with all security-related systems, it is important to identify potential weaknesses.
Algorithms[edit]
All public key schemes are in theory susceptible to a "brute-force key search attack".[4] Such attacks are however impractical if the amount of computation needed to succeed – termed the "work factor" by Claude Shannon – is out of reach of all potential attackers. In many cases, the work factor can be increased by simply choosing a longer key. But other algorithms may have much lower work factors, making resistance to a brute-force attack irrelevant. Some special and specific algorithms have been developed to aid in attacking some public key encryption algorithms – both RSA and ElGamal encryption have known attacks that are much faster than the brute-force approach.[5]
Major weaknesses have been found for several formerly promising asymmetric key algorithms. The "knapsack packing" algorithm was found to be insecure after the development of a new attack.[citation needed] Recently, some attacks based on careful measurements of the exact amount of time it takes known hardware to encrypt plain text have been used to simplify the search for likely decryption keys (a "side-channel attack"). A great deal of active research is currently underway to both discover, and to protect against, new attack algorithms.
Alteration of public keys[edit]
Another potential security vulnerability in using asymmetric keys is the possibility of a "man-in-the-middle" attack, in which the communication of public keys is intercepted by a third party (the "man in the middle") and then modified to provide different public keys instead. Encrypted messages and responses must also be intercepted, decrypted, and re-encrypted by the attacker using the correct public keys for different communication segments, in all instances, so as to avoid suspicion.
This attack may seem to be difficult to implement in practice, but it is not impossible when using insecure media (e.g., public networks, such as the Internet or wireless forms of communications) – for example, a malicious staff member at an Internet Service Provider (ISP) might find it quite easy to carry out.[citation needed]
Public key infrastructure[edit]
One approach to prevent such attacks involves the use of a public key infrastructure (PKI); a set of roles, policies, and procedures needed to create, manage, distribute, use, store and revoke digital certificates and manage public-key encryption. However, this in turn has potential weaknesses.
For example, the certificate authority issuing the certificate must be trusted to have properly checked the identity of the key-holder, must ensure the correctness of the public key when it issues a certificate, must be secure from computer piracy, and must have made arrangements with all participants to check all their certificates before protected communications can begin. Web browsers, for instance, are supplied with a long list of "self-signed identity certificates" from PKI providers – these are used to check the bona fides of the certificate authority and then, in a second step, the certificates of potential communicators. An attacker who could subvert any single one of those certificate authorities into issuing a certificate for a bogus public key could then mount a "man-in-the-middle" attack as easily as if the certificate scheme were not used at all. In an alternate scenario rarely discussed[citation needed], an attacker who penetrated an authority's servers and obtained its store of certificates and keys (public and private) would be able to spoof, masquerade, decrypt, and forge transactions without limit.
Despite its theoretical and potential problems, this approach is widely used. Examples include TLS and its predecessor SSL, which are commonly used to provide security for web browser transactions (for example, to securely send credit card details to an online store).
Aside from the resistance to attack of a particular key pair, the security of the certification hierarchy must be considered when deploying public key systems. Some certificate authority – usually a purpose-built program running on a server computer – vouches for the identities assigned to specific private keys by producing a digital certificate. Public key digital certificates are typically valid for several years at a time, so the associated private keys must be held securely over that time. When a private key used for certificate creation higher in the PKI server hierarchy is compromised, or accidentally disclosed, then a "man-in-the-middle attack" is possible, making any subordinate certificate wholly insecure.
 
[argument from ignorance]

You really shouldn't be trying to argue this with a software engineer who studies applied cryptography for fun.

You just plain do not understand why your position is not supported by wherever you pulled that string of incoherent garbage from.

There are some sidechannel attacks that exist for single applications when you have physical access to an endpoint device.

There are some attacks that are possible when you, as a user, have not directly signed the other certificate and compared its hash before continuing to use it. These mostly amount to USER ERROR.or IMPLEMENTATION ERROR.

If you have questions rather than blind assertions I would be happy to answer them. Properly used encryption is essentially unbreakable, and will continue to be more secure than just about any other method, including delivering a message by voice in person.
 
HTTPS security depends on the security of the third party certificate server and certificate server can be:
a) hacked
b) brute-force factorized.
c) politely asked by the government to give up their private keys.
for these reasons https is far from being absolutely secure
 
HTTPS security depends on the security of the third party certificate server and certificate server can be:
a) hacked
b) brute-force factorized.
c) politely asked by the government to give up their private keys.
for these reasons https is far from being absolutely secure

THIS is an accurate statement, mostly, except that brute force factorization is not a real concern for appropriately large key sizes. At some point it's easier to pick a random particle in the entire universe than pick the matching key, which is to say not gonna happen. At that point they might as well be trying to randomly guess what the message itself was.

At that point, though, you are getting into user and implementation errors: the clearnet is a bad option for some things.
 
HTTPS security depends on the security of the third party certificate server and certificate server can be:
a) hacked
b) brute-force factorized.
c) politely asked by the government to give up their private keys.
for these reasons https is far from being absolutely secure

THIS is an accurate statement, mostly, except that brute force factorization is not a real concern for appropriately large key sizes. At some point it's easier to pick a random particle in the entire universe than pick the matching key, which is to say not gonna happen. At that point they might as well be trying to randomly guess what the message itself was.

At that point, though, you are getting into user and implementation errors: the clearnet is a bad option for some things.
OK it's practically unbreakable, you still have government politely asking for keys.
 
If based on general public information on encryption that you are safe from govt hacking as the old saying goes you are not playing with a full deck.
 
If based on general public information on encryption that you are safe from govt hacking as the old saying goes you are not playing with a full deck.

As soon as you (or anyone) can win "pick a number between 1 and 2^4096", maybe we can talk about how PGP is 'insecure'. The reason encryption works is that there is no circumventing the laws of math and computational complexity.
 
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