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Was Matthew really Jewish?

SLD

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Matthew is generally identified aa the most Jewish of the Gospels. Most that I have read believe that the author was a Jewish 1st Century person who wrote for a Jewish audience that was divided from the mainstream.

I am not so sure. He seems to me to be very anti semitic with his infamous line: His blood be upon us, and on our children. How could a Jewish writer say such a thing and still be accepted in his community?

Maybe he wasn't, or maybe they had a different interpretation at the time, or simply paid little attention to it as it was not until later used as a justification for jewish repression.

Other things I've read also indicate that the writing does not bear certain hallmarks of translation and thus was originally composed by a Greek native. Of course some Greek native speakers were Jewish so it could still be. And others point out that the writer seems highly educated about Jewish law. So I guess he could be a Greek Jew, but still, I don't like that one line to come from a Jew. Could that have been added in later?

Allright enough! What say ye?

SLD
 
With the wide variety of beliefs and sects in the region of ancient Judea, and no identifiably 'christian' religion yet established, what among 'Judaism' would qualify as being "most Jewish" ?

'Jews' have always constituted a diverse population, (as they still do) one comprised of a wide spectrum of religious views, beliefs, and some extremely diverse lifestyles.
What sect or whom is the stereotypical 'most Jewish' of 'Jews' to which one could compare any other contemporary 'Jew'?

There were (and are) many 'Jews' highly critical of the form of 'Judaism' practiced by their contemporaries (the Prophets were much harsher in their criticisms of their countrymen than Matthew)
Being critical of faulty ethics and moral deficiencies present within ones nation or culture does not make a Jewish writer anti semitic.
How could a Jewish writer say such a thing and still be accepted in his community?
Being tzadiq is not a matter of simply pleasing a community by the scratching of their itching ears. Hard things need be said, and the tzadiq weigh the matter, accepting or rejecting both message and messenger.
 
I think Shesh is barely toughing on the diversity in Judaism here. It cannot be said enough.

Judaism was not orthodox. Stating someone was Jewish does not narrow down what he or his religion was.

It is a vague term that whould not be used during this period in many historical context. The only common theme is a vague religious belief. NOT a cultural one.

Judaism in the forst century was multi cultural and VERY diverse.



My opinion.

The unknown author of Matthew belonged to a community that held on to Hellenistic values in Judaism and the OT more so then other communities.

It is obvious by using Mark as a source he was also writing to and for a roman audience consisting of Hellenist, gentiles and Proselytes in the empire.

He was not writing too and for oppressed born and raise Israelites or trdaitional Jews if that term can even be used. Nor was he a member of thi sversion of Judaism.
 
Matthew 5: 17 - 19 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

-------

This reads like a polemic against St. Paul, who said that Jewish dietary laws and circumcision were not necessary for Gentile converts to Christianity.

Christianity began as a sect within Judaism. The first Christians were in some ways similar to followers of Rabbi Menachem Mendel Schneerson. During his lifetime many followers thought the Rabbi was the Messiah. They were surprised when he died in 1994 without revealing himself. Now they expect him to rise from his tomb.

St. Paul realized that many Gentiles could convert to Christianity if circumcision and Kosher laws were not required of them. Before anesthetics and anesthesia circumcision for a man was painful, and sometimes fatal.

Many Jewish Christians thought it was scandalous to admit Christians to the faith without requiring them to obey the Law of Moses. This conflict is mentioned in the Book of Acts, although it seems to have been downplayed somewhat.

Matthew 5: 17 - 19 appears to have been written by a Jewish Christian who continued to disagree with St. Paul.
 
My understanding is that the author of the Gospel of Matthew (AMatt) is considered the 'most versed in Hebraic tradition of all the gospel authors', which may mean that he was possibly of Israelite heritage, or it may mean that he was a gentile particularly well-versed in Judaica. It is difficult to tell. I understand, from Burton Mack's interpretation, that AMatt was most interested in 'correcting' the 'inaccuracies' of GMark, so AMatt rewrote GMark his way and added his own seriously inaccurate stuff.

I'm rather fond of Matthew 12:31.
 
It depends. Are Matthew's sermons constantly interrupted by his mother wandering over and telling him that he should dress warmer and saying that he should maybe talk to that nice girl in the back of the crowd so she'd be able to hold some grandchildren before she dies?
 
It depends. Are Matthew's sermons constantly interrupted by his mother wandering over and telling him that he should dress warmer and saying that he should maybe talk to that nice girl in the back of the crowd so she'd be able to hold some grandchildren before she dies?

Well...He might have been like me and married a Jewess who fled the big city, to the margins of the empire, to escape her interferring mother. So, yeah....I had a Jewish MIL. Talk about penance and sacrifice.
 
Matthew is generally identified aa the most Jewish of the Gospels. Most that I have read believe that the author was a Jewish 1st Century person who wrote for a Jewish audience that was divided from the mainstream.

I am not so sure. He seems to me to be very anti semitic with his infamous line: His blood be upon us, and on our children. How could a Jewish writer say such a thing and still be accepted in his community?

Allright enough! What say ye?

SLD

That his blood is upon them and on their children.
 
Matthew is generally identified aa the most Jewish of the Gospels. Most that I have read believe that the author was a Jewish 1st Century person who wrote for a Jewish audience that was divided from the mainstream.

I am not so sure. He seems to me to be very anti semitic with his infamous line: His blood be upon us, and on our children. How could a Jewish writer say such a thing and still be accepted in his community?

Allright enough! What say ye?

SLD

That his blood is upon them and on their children.

Well as long as it’s not on their great grandchildren and any other generations than we can dispense with the antisemitism. Why do I think that’s not what you mean?

SLD
 
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Matthew is generally identified aa the most Jewish of the Gospels. Most that I have read believe that the author was a Jewish 1st Century person who wrote for a Jewish audience that was divided from the mainstream.

I am not so sure. He seems to me to be very anti semitic with his infamous line: His blood be upon us, and on our children. How could a Jewish writer say such a thing and still be accepted in his community?

Allright enough! What say ye?

SLD

That his blood is upon them and on their children.

Ahem...Luke 23:24.

You, humbleman, are a fraud and viper.

SLD, have you not read any of the prophets? They seem to have a regular tendency of condemning all of the Hebrews for their lack of religiousity and willingness to worship other gods. The Jews are regularly condemned by their own prophets for their lax and irreligious behavior.

Just out of curiosity, what do you consider to be 'mainstream' of Hebraic practice in the first century CE?

It seems we will need to establish a virtual yeshiva and encourage chavruta. Any apostate Jews in the crowd?
 
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Well as long as it’s not on their great grandchildren and any other generations than we can dispense with the antisemitism. Why do I think that’s not what you mean?

SLD

Antisemitism? Lol. If someone thinks that way must come from a fanatic or something similar. This is not about "all Hebrews", this is about the group of priests and people who asked for the death of Jesus.

It wasn't the whole Judea, but just a group of people, a multitude surrounding the court area.

Like if the entire students of one school come to the street and brake windows and cause chaos in one afternoon, you won't say that the whole students of the country caused vandalism, and they also should pay for the consequences.

If someone wants to play "victim" claiming antisemitism, I think he or she better knock other doors, because here those claims are ridiculous.

Lets see the biblical stuff.

Mathews

24When Pilate saw that he was accomplishing nothing, but that instead a riot was breaking out, he took water and washed his hands before the crowd. “I am innocent of this man’s blood,” he said. “You shall bear the responsibility.”

25 All the people answered, “His blood be on us and on our children!”

26 So Pilate released Barabbas to them. But he had Jesus flogged and handed Him over to be crucified.…


Tell me, what can you do with obstinate people?

Pilates is trying hard not sending to death to a guy he sees is not guilty of anything, because even in those years, people had FREEDOM of believing what they what to believe in. The bible shows that in those years several peoples had different gods. Here is evidence of freedom of religion at work.

Then, because this was about religious matters, the civil authority found out that he had no business to make judgement. under lots of pressure by the accusers, Pilates washed his hands, and told the multitudes that the death penalty was the responsibility of the accusers.

The whole thing makes sense. Lets see what happened before.

Mathew

59 Now the chief priests, and elders, and all the council, sought false witness against Jesus, to put him to death;

60 But found none: yea, though many false witnesses came, yet found they none. At the last came two false witnesses,

61 And said, This fellow said, I am able to destroy the temple of God, and to build it in three days.

62 And the high priest arose, and said unto him, Answerest thou nothing? what is it which these witness against thee?

63 But Jesus held his peace, And the high priest answered and said unto him, I adjure thee by the living God, that thou tell us whether thou be the Christ, the Son of God.

64 Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

65 Then the high priest rent his clothes, saying, He hath spoken blasphemy; what further need have we of witnesses? behold, now ye have heard his blasphemy.



It was the people of Judea the ones wishing the death of Jesus? It appears that such is not the case. The high priests wanted Jesus dead, that is for sure. Their priesthood has been challenged lots of times by Jesus, and they want him out of the streets and the Temple.

Here is something interesting. The clothes of the High Priest were suppose to be intact all the time. Even the pectoral area was reinforced in order to avoid any damage. And notice that when the Aaronic priesthood was established, the High Priest clothes should be without any blemish, otherwise the High Priest cannot perform his duties in the Holy of the Holies place in the Temple.

Now read again this part

65 Then the high priest rent his clothes, saying, He hath spoken blasphemy


Here, at this moment, the Aaronic priesthood was over. Finito.

And they, of course knew about it. Now, with more certainty they wanted Jesus dead yes or yes. They didn't care of the consequences. They didn't want a different High Priest taking possession of the one which just finished. They lost their position as priests.

Same way they called false witness, they hired or imposed to many, of going against Jesus in front of Pilates.

When Pilates told them the death of Jesus is their responsibility, these priests and the people whom they hired claimed:

“His blood be on us and on our children!"


Well, they asked for, so be it.

I find no reason why Mathew should need to modify or hide what happened in that event. He just provided more details of that day in front of Pilates, something that Luke didn't do.
 
Nice touch...with the bold and color.

When do you step up to ALL CAPS?

You are still doing the Wallenstein MX130 routine, though.

Here, try this on for size: Jesus Before Pilate: What’s Wrong with This Picture?

Remember, the gospels should never be accepted as accurate and valid historical chronicles. The 'gospel truth' isn't.
 
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And...Can someone explain to me why it was necessary to bring the Romans in on killing a blasphemer?

I mean, it seems that they are killing adulterers on the streets willy-nilly with stonings. What's the special deal with blasphemers going to the Romans, who couldn't give a pig's patoot if the poor clown dissed YHWH.

And...Can someone tell me who the narrating witness is for the storyline from just before the arrest. In the Garden of Gethsemane, where we are told all the apostles fell asleep. And Jesus, begged for the cup to be taken from him. Who was the witness keeping track of all this? Then, before the Sandhedrin. Before Herod. Before Pontius Pilate. All the highest authorities present in Jerusalem at the time. We are told that the apostles fled. Yet, we still have the intrepid anonymous witness. A witness of amazing ability and social reach, don't you think?
 
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Matthew is generally identified aa the most Jewish of the Gospels. Most that I have read believe that the author was a Jewish 1st Century person who wrote for a Jewish audience that was divided from the mainstream.

I am not so sure. He seems to me to be very anti semitic with his infamous line: His blood be upon us, and on our children. How could a Jewish writer say such a thing and still be accepted in his community?

Allright enough! What say ye?

SLD

That his blood is upon them and on their children.
You must joking... is this what you believe?
 
I imagine a lot of folks here have read Dan Barker's Easter Challenge.

I suspect that humbleman has not run across it yet, so I'm interesting in his taking it on. Anybody else, for that matter.
 
Nice touch...with the bold and color.

When do you step up to ALL CAPS?

You are still doing the Wallenstein MX130 routine, though.

Here, try this on for size: Jesus Before Pilate: What’s Wrong with This Picture?

From your link.

The third incident in Josephus’s triptych describes the death of a Samaritan prophet and Pilate’s removal from office.It appears in Antquities18.4.1-2.

Samaria was an independent Jewish nation that rejected the Jerusalem-centered Temple tradition.

Your link is telling big lies.

Samaritans were descendants of the ten tribes of Israel who were exiled beyond the Euphrates. Great masses of the Israelite were sent out of the land, but always the farmers and poor class stayed in the land to keep it and avoid them to become wild or deserts. You can easily identify what I state when the Samaritan woman told Jesus that her ancestors owned the well, and the well in question was indeed the well of Joseph, one of the sons and head of one of the tribes of Israel.

Samaritans weren't Jewish. Samaritans were descendants of Israelite mixed with other peoples who inhabited that region after the exile.

Who was the Samaritan prophet?

hey had their own versions of the Books of Moses that justified Samaria 15 War,2.9.4, 176.as the center of Israelite polity. Samaria lay between Judea and Galilee and was apparently part of Pilate’s administrative domain.According to Josephus’s account, a revered Samaritan prophet said that he would go up Mount Gerizzim, the holy mountain of the Samaritans,and dig up sacred vessels placed there by Moses. Large crowds gathered in preparation for the trip up the mountain and many were armed. Pilate sent a military force in to slaughter the gathered Samaritans and ordered the troops to hunt down and kill any who escaped. The prophet appears to have been among the dead although Josephus doesn’t specifically say he was killed.

Surely that Samaritan prophet wasn't Jesus.

Lets continue

This certainly sounds like a monstrous act on Pilate’s part, a great offense to Jews that seems to have remained in the popular memory.But unfortunately, we have no further details about what happened and why.The evidence above clearly depicts a Pilate who is obstinate and violent and who doesn’t care what Jews think of him or what they want. If he gives an order he backs it forcefully, even if the opposing parties disagree for good reasons. He was a man who, among the many accusations against him, had no qualms about executing people without trials or evidence. He was ultimately removed from office for slaughtering a beloved Jewish prophet and his followers...

First, the letters say of a Samaritan prophet, and later the conclusion of Pilate's personality ends with a "Jewish prophet."

Definitively something wrong with your picture.

And again, when Pilate killed lots of Galileans, it is not saying killing "Jews". which should have been identified as such in Josephus writings.

On the other hand, Josephus dedicated a special narration about Jesus, even Josephus said the following:

About this time there lived Jesus, a wise man, if indeed one ought to call him a man. For he was one who performed surprising deeds and was a teacher of such people as accept the truth gladly. He won over many Jews and many of the Greeks. He was the Messiah. And when, upon the accusation of the principal men among us, Pilate had condemned him to a cross, those who had first come to love him did not cease. He appeared to them spending a third day restored to life, for the prophets of God had foretold these things and a thousand other marvels about him. And the tribe of the Christians, so called after him, has still to this day not disappeared.
- Jewish Antiquities, 18.3.3

Oh, but... sure, for you Antiquities 18.4.3 is valid but Antiquities 18.3.3 is a n aggregate "someone" wrote later. Isn't true?

Lets go now with the High Priest vestments.

The narration in your link shows that Pilates and Caiaphas were buddies.

Caiaphas served as High Priest throughout Pilate’s entire ten-year reign. He was appointed to the position eight years earlier by the previous governor, Gratus.
Raymond Brown has observed that Pilate was the only Governor who didn’t remove a High Priest from office whereas Gratus removed four High Priests in rapid succession
prior to appointing Caiaphas and this, he suggests,shows that there was a stable government under Pilate, which in turn, he further suggests, indicated reasonably good relations with the Jewish people.21Actually, it only shows a stable relationship between Pilate and the High Priest without defining what that relationship was.

What it can be assumed is that Pilate was piss off after the cadaver of the Christ wasn't found and in revenge took the broken vestments of the High Priest.

Pilate might have been a cruel governor, and he might was a great enemy of the Jewish people all the time, and for this reason Jews hated him even before the crucifixion of the Christ.

Pilate found a great opportunity to be against the Jewish people in front of him by playing the merciful authority. He even washed his hands making mockery of the Jewish tradition.

Your link is not giving the information of when the High Priest vestments were taken by the Roman authority. You have no base foundation to establish that Caiaphas didn't wear those before the crucifixion.

Later your link tries to discredit the gospels because one says "king of the Jews" the another says "the Messiah", and so forth.

What a great amount of incompetence!

Even in any case where there are four witness of an accident that happened yesterday night, the version of the four witness will contradict one to another in several details.

If all the gospels said exactly the same in their different passages, then the whole gospels should be a fraud.

But, the differences in relating the events and describing the characters show that they indeed are four different persons.

The one who is completely different than the rest, even when his narration coincides with the others, is Luke, because he wasn't one of the witness when the events happened. Luke collected the words of different witness and tried to put the versions in chronological order.

On the other hand, the other gospels are not in chronological order, something that is very natural in people when tell the story of a movie, or something that happened around.

To conclude.

The picture is that the Jewish authorities weren't sure of Jesus (Yeshu) as the expected Messiah. They knew that a Messiah will come, but they didn't expect their Aaronic priesthood to be dismantled when the Messiah arrived.

Before the Aaronic priesthood was the priesthood which we know by the scriptures was the Priesthood of the Order of Melchizedek.

This is the priesthood that Abraham knew and from which he learned YHWH's laws and statures, and etc.

The Aaronic priesthood was always to be a temporary priesthood, to be replaced by the priesthood of the Messiah.

The picture presents the Jewish authorities pushing their luck with a test of fire, proving if Yeshu was the Son of God.


They incited people to demand the sacrifice of Yeshu. They manipulated everything to verify the identity of Yeshu. They sent "spies" (Nicodemus) they hired traitors (Judas) and finally they got what they wanted, to make a foreign authority the one who ordered the death of Yeshu, just in case he becomes the real Messiah they can say... who? ... me?... but I didn't order any killing that day...

Not only Caiaphas broke the High Priest vestments but the Temple's veil which covered the entrance of the Holy of Holies place went broken right when Yeshu died.

In other words, the Aaronic priesthood was over. There is a new sheriff in town.

One one hand, the Jews were right, there wasn't other way to check the identity of the Messiah, but on the other hand they should accept their lost and recognize their mess.

In vain they try to point as guilty to Pilate, because it wasn't Pilate the one who ordered the arrest of Yeshu. And a dude with two people with knives and the rest with fear is not a revolution that requires movement of troops. Come on.

Nice try but what is done is done and the excuses shown in the link given by you won't change what happened that day, that Pilate washed his hands mocking the Jews and tried the releasing of the one the Jews wanted dead.

Finally, what the heck, for Pilate was the same the son of Man or the son of God, he just wanted to watch the game at home with the family and those Jews were making too much scandal. He conceded the petition of his buddy Caiaphas and Yeshu was crucified.

End of the story.
 
I imagine a lot of folks here have read Dan Barker's Easter Challenge.

I suspect that humbleman has not run across it yet, so I'm interesting in his taking it on. Anybody else, for that matter.

Bah! you don't understand the scriptures.

Jesus resurrected and closed the door after going away. You know, someone can come and steal the aromatic herbs and other goods.

When the women came later on to the tomb, an angel opened the door again so they can check no one is home.
 
And...Can someone explain to me why it was necessary to bring the Romans in on killing a blasphemer?

I mean, it seems that they are killing adulterers on the streets willy-nilly with stonings. What's the special deal with blasphemers going to the Romans, who couldn't give a pig's patoot if the poor clown dissed YHWH.

And...Can someone tell me who the narrating witness is for the storyline from just before the arrest. In the Garden of Gethsemane, where we are told all the apostles fell asleep. And Jesus, begged for the cup to be taken from him. Who was the witness keeping track of all this? Then, before the Sandhedrin. Before Herod. Before Pontius Pilate. All the highest authorities present in Jerusalem at the time. We are told that the apostles fled. Yet, we still have the intrepid anonymous witness. A witness of amazing ability and social reach, don't you think?

It was almost the festivity, and it was not allowed to kill a blasphemer at that moment. Religious stuff that you might don't understand.

They should have waited a few days.
 
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