What do you think of Airsoft?

[Loren Pechtel]

So if kids are out running around with air soft guns when they have air soft gun battles (which I have personally observed to be the case) it makes a few deaths OK?

You missed my point completely.

Nothing about the fun exercise of a play gun battle requires realistic looking guns. Nothing. There is no inherent societal benefit when the guns look realistic.

We have tons of fun having fun gun battles at home with white and orange plastic water-guns. We have a great time. And not one person sits out because the guns don't look deadly enough. Not one.


My premise is that there is ABSOLUTELY ZERO VALUE IN REALISM OF PLAY GUNS. None. Zilch.
And there is a whole lot of detriment. Realistic looking toy guns lead to deaths while giving no benefit at all.

My kids can have a fun gun battle with pine cones and crooked cucumbers. They do not require realism to get their fitness. or fun.

Exactly. I don't support a total ban on them but I would like to see handling requirements basically the same as real weapons. Kids can play with things that can't be mistaken for a real gun.

 

[Jarhyn]

Yes. We can ban playing and man-powered transportation. And end up with a fat, lazy, disgusting and medically expensive population of sedentary depressed assholes.

So no, we probably shouldn't ban those things.

We can ban fake look-alike guns and have police able to do their job effectively. And end up with children who are not obsessed with having and carrying weapons, and avoid a generation that treats them like toys.

So yes, we probably should ban those things.

Have you ever participated in an airsoft gun battle (or paintball, which is similar)? I did a few times with my kids. It's far more intense exercise than swinging on a swing set or sitting in a swimming pool with a beer.

I have. And they can be intense. But you do not need anodized black handgun shaped objects to do it. You can accomplish the same intensity with nerf guns.

Even so, we need laws limiting public carry and child access to them because they must not be treated like toys. Because that's how you end up with dead kids. Part of the reason I divorced my ex husband is that he refused to treat his nerf guns like real guns, and when we got an airsoft gun, he flashed me repeatedly. There are muscle memories, dangerous ones, when you have a gun shaped thing that is not treated like a gun. I do not want to live in a society populated by walking hazards, when one of those walking hazards could easily get a REAL gun.

 

[dismal]

Because that's how you end up with dead kids.

Wouldn't it be more accurate to say "swimming pools is how you end up with dead kids" or "swingsets is how you end up with dead kids"?

 

[Rhea]

Because that's how you end up with dead kids.

Wouldn't it be more accurate to say "swimming pools is how you end up with dead kids" or "swingsets is how you end up with dead kids"?

No it wouldn't. It would be like saying unattended children swimming is how you end up with dead kids. Jarhyn is SPECIFICALLY saying that certain actions are what leads to the dead kids. Not all guns, not all toys. She is specifically saying that toy guns that look real and the taking of those habits to real guns causes a problem. She specifically did NOT say all guns cause dead kids, where one might say, "is that like saying pools cause dead kids". She was explicitly calling out specific changes to make.

And I think you knew that.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Because that's how you end up with dead kids.

Wouldn't it be more accurate to say "swimming pools is how you end up with dead kids" or "swingsets is how you end up with dead kids"?

I tried to explain the same thing to my neighbor when he was complaining about the fourteen lions I had in my backyard.

He said, "Those things are dangerous. What if they attack my child." And I replied, "Hey... kids die in swimming pools all the time. Don't see you trying to ban those. You fucking hypocrite!"

 

[laughing dog]

My guess is that the "authentic look" of a toy gun is demanded more by adults than children. Children can (and do) pick up sticks and go "bang bang".

 

[Jarhyn]

Wouldn't it be more accurate to say "swimming pools is how you end up with dead kids" or "swingsets is how you end up with dead kids"?

No it wouldn't. It would be like saying unattended children swimming is how you end up with dead kids. Jarhyn is SPECIFICALLY saying that certain actions are what leads to the dead kids. Not all guns, not all toys. She is specifically saying that toy guns that look real and the taking of those habits to real guns causes a problem. She specifically did NOT say all guns cause dead kids, where one might say, "is that like saying pools cause dead kids". She was explicitly calling out specific changes to make.

And I think you knew that.

Don't let
Truth get in the way of carefully crafted rhetoric, now! Also, I am not a 'she'. I don't really prescribe to the gender binary, or even the sex binary, but there is nothing remotely 'girly' here. You couldn't know, and just like a cop's heuristic being fooled by toy guns, yours was fooled by 'husband', but now that you know please not again?

 

[dismal]

Wouldn't it be more accurate to say "swimming pools is how you end up with dead kids" or "swingsets is how you end up with dead kids"?

No it wouldn't. It would be like saying unattended children swimming is how you end up with dead kids. Jarhyn is SPECIFICALLY saying that certain actions are what leads to the dead kids. Not all guns, not all toys. She is specifically saying that toy guns that look real and the taking of those habits to real guns causes a problem. She specifically did NOT say all guns cause dead kids, where one might say, "is that like saying pools cause dead kids". She was explicitly calling out specific changes to make.

And I think you knew that.

Do you have some evidence that realistic looking airsoft guns are causing dead kids at a higher rate than unrealistic ones would?

Because I have already provide the evidence that swimming pools and playgrounds kill and injure large numbers of kids.

I was using the word "accurate" in the sense of being consistent with and supported by facts.

 

[Keith&Co.]

Because I have already provide the evidence that swimming pools and playgrounds kill and injure large numbers of kids.

dismal, that's the argument to use if people are saying 'guns are dangerous, we should control them better.' A straight comparison of quantities to death.

The problem here is that gun enthusiasts are so jealous of their gun rights that they've resisted all attempts to license or reduce their number or availability or increase tracking. They've made it so easy for guns to be owned by people who have no business owning them that cops seeing anything remotely resembling a gun are forced to act as if it's a gun. And they've made it so easy for disturbed people to gain access to weaponry that the cops assume they're a trigger away from a tragedy and act accordingly.

It doesn't fucking matter how deaths-caused-by-realistic-toy-guns compare to things-that-cops-do-not-automatically-treat-as-a-serious-threat. If ANYONE has died because a toy was perceived as a realistic reason to apply lethal force, that's one person too many. And that's at least partly due to the coordinated efforts to make sure Joe Citizen can have all his guns.

 

[dismal]

Because I have already provide the evidence that swimming pools and playgrounds kill and injure large numbers of kids.

dismal, that's the argument to use if people are saying 'guns are dangerous, we should control them better.' A straight comparison of quantities to death.

The problem here is that gun enthusiasts are so jealous of their gun rights that they've resisted all attempts to license or reduce their number or availability or increase tracking. They've made it so easy for guns to be owned by people who have no business owning them that cops seeing anything remotely resembling a gun are forced to act as if it's a gun. And they've made it so easy for disturbed people to gain access to weaponry that the cops assume they're a trigger away from a tragedy and act accordingly.

It doesn't fucking matter how deaths-caused-by-realistic-toy-guns compare to things-that-cops-do-not-automatically-treat-as-a-serious-threat. If ANYONE has died because a toy was perceived as a realistic reason to apply lethal force, that's one person too many. And that's at least partly due to the coordinated efforts to make sure Joe Citizen can have all his guns.

We're talking about toys here. Not real guns.

 

[Jarhyn]

No it wouldn't. It would be like saying unattended children swimming is how you end up with dead kids. Jarhyn is SPECIFICALLY saying that certain actions are what leads to the dead kids. Not all guns, not all toys. She is specifically saying that toy guns that look real and the taking of those habits to real guns causes a problem. She specifically did NOT say all guns cause dead kids, where one might say, "is that like saying pools cause dead kids". She was explicitly calling out specific changes to make.

And I think you knew that.

Do you have some evidence that realistic looking airsoft guns are causing dead kids at a higher rate than unrealistic ones would?

Because I have already provide the evidence that swimming pools and playgrounds kill and injure large numbers of kids.

I was using the word "accurate" in the sense of being consistent with and supported by facts.

The dead kids due to playground equipment have already been accepted and are decidedly irrelevant to this conversation. We don't care about those kids because they are an acceptable tradeoff in exchange for all the obnoxious obese smelly fat asses we don't have to take care of because children are encouraged and allowed to play.

The people shot by cops waving around real looking toys because cops think they are not toys would not be shot if they were readily distinguishable as toys. I don't know anyone stupid enough to deny that. 100% of everyone I have ever met agree that without the cause of an effect, the effect would not have been caused, for all effects with a cause. So either you are saying that cops shoot kids who wave guns around FOR NO REASON, or because they wave guns around.

Further, you are denying the direct and immediate evidence of the fact that I just divorced someone last month because they did exactly the act of treating guns like toys because they were exposed to gun shaped toys and allowed to treat them like toys.

 

[dismal]

Do you have some evidence that realistic looking airsoft guns are causing dead kids at a higher rate than unrealistic ones would?

Because I have already provide the evidence that swimming pools and playgrounds kill and injure large numbers of kids.

I was using the word "accurate" in the sense of being consistent with and supported by facts.

The dead kids due to playground equipment have already been accepted and are decidedly irrelevant to this conversation.

Keith&co says one dead kid is too many. I'm sure he(&they?) don't accept the dead kids on the playgrounds.

The people shot by cops waving around real looking toys because cops think they are not toys would not be shot if they were readily distinguishable as toys

Cops shoot people all the time. Some don't even have guns at all. In the recent case I am led to believe it's because the guy was black, not because he had a realistic looking toy gun.

Further, you are denying the direct and immediate evidence of the fact that I just divorced someone last month because they did exactly the act of treating guns like toys because they were exposed to gun shaped toys and allowed to treat them like toys.

It does not sound to me like your marriage problem was a toy gun problem. Your ex could have stopped waving toy guns at you without the political system banning them.

 

[Keith&Co.]

..... And that's at least partly due to the coordinated efforts to make sure Joe Citizen can have all his guns.

We're talking about toys here. Not real guns.

We're talking about cops assuming toy guns are a threat and shooting people who are in reality unarmed. And none of these deaths can be disassociated from the prevalence of real guns in the society the cops are trying to deal with.

 

[Rhea]

Also, I am not a 'she'. I don't really prescribe to the gender binary, or even the sex binary, but there is nothing remotely 'girly' here. You couldn't know, and just like a cop's heuristic being fooled by toy guns, yours was fooled by 'husband', but now that you know please not again?

Sorry about that. I believe have made this error before and I'm sorry for that one, too. And while I'll sincerely want to not make the mistake again... I'd better apologize in advance because my name-recognition skills are horrible. I would love it if we had gender-free pronouns. What's it matter what gender we all are, anyway?

 

[Keith&Co.]

Keith&co says one dead kid is too many. I'm sure he(&they?) don't accept the dead kids on the playgrounds.

I don't accept the claim that dead kids on playground equipment are relevant to a discussion about toy guns being mistaken for real guns, no.

Oh, no, wait, there was that one playground where they got the Russian Tank prop from the Red Dawn movie as a climbing gym, and they drew attention from the local army base and an Apache took out 23 preschoolers with an anti-tank missile. That one incident is comparable.

- - - Updated - - -

I would love it if we had gender-free pronouns. What's it matter what gender we all are, anyway?

'It' is the gender free pronoun. It doesn't always make things better.

 

[Rhea]

Do you have some evidence that realistic looking airsoft guns are causing dead kids at a higher rate than unrealistic ones would?

plenty of cases where kids holding realistic-looking ones are shot, few where bright orange plastic is what they are holding (any?)
But you knew that.

 

[dismal]

Do you have some evidence that realistic looking airsoft guns are causing dead kids at a higher rate than unrealistic ones would?

plenty of cases where kids holding realistic-looking ones are shot, few where bright orange plastic is what they are holding (any?)
But you knew that.

Link?

 

[dismal]

Oh, no, wait, there was that one playground where they got the Russian Tank prop from the Red Dawn movie as a climbing gym, and they drew attention from the local army base and an Apache took out 23 preschoolers with an anti-tank missile. That one incident is comparable.

Haha jokes about kids dying on playgrounds are funny.

I'm sure if the 150 kids that died on playgrounds in the link I posted were still around they'd be laughing too.

 

[Rhea]

plenty of cases where kids holding realistic-looking ones are shot, few where bright orange plastic is what they are holding (any?)
But you knew that.

Link?

Plenty of cases:
https://www.google.com/search?newwi...2.0....0...1c.1.51.serp..5.3.4228.GxxxRu_bElY

2 million hits.


Article references quite a few incidents
http://nation.time.com/2013/10/25/toy-guns-deadly-consequences/

The Department of Justice says the federal government doesn’t keep ongoing statistics on the trend, but in a 1990 paper funded by the Bureau of Justice Statistics, U.S. police reported that they had used or threatened to use force “in a confrontation where an imitation gun had been mistaken for a real firearm” at a rate of about 200 incidents per year. The paper’s authors suggested that this number was “significantly underreported.” A series of toy gun-related deaths in the late 80s helped pass a federal amendment, sponsored by Republican Sen. Bob Dole, that requires all toy, “look-alike,” or imitation firearms to have a bright orange plug or other salient marking. But manufacturers don’t always adhere to required standards and markings can be altered, according to law enforcement.

 

[dismal]

Link?

Plenty of cases:
https://www.google.com/search?newwi...2.0....0...1c.1.51.serp..5.3.4228.GxxxRu_bElY

2 million hits.


Article references quite a few incidents
http://nation.time.com/2013/10/25/toy-guns-deadly-consequences/

The Department of Justice says the federal government doesn’t keep ongoing statistics on the trend, but in a 1990 paper funded by the Bureau of Justice Statistics, U.S. police reported that they had used or threatened to use force “in a confrontation where an imitation gun had been mistaken for a real firearm” at a rate of about 200 incidents per year. The paper’s authors suggested that this number was “significantly underreported.” A series of toy gun-related deaths in the late 80s helped pass a federal amendment, sponsored by Republican Sen. Bob Dole, that requires all toy, “look-alike,” or imitation firearms to have a bright orange plug or other salient marking. But manufacturers don’t always adhere to required standards and markings can be altered, according to law enforcement.

I looked at the first one:

Two patrolling officers spotted the teenager holding the gun and repeatedly ordered him to drop his weapon, according to a statement from the Sonoma County Sheriff’s Department. “The deputies fired several rounds from their handguns at the subject striking him several times,” it said. “The subject fell to the ground and landed on top of the rifle he was carrying.”

This kid was not shot because he had a toy gun but because he did not drop it when the police repeatedly told him to.