• Welcome to the new Internet Infidels Discussion Board, formerly Talk Freethought.

What does it mean for something to be "logically possible"?

This reminds me of the time a philosophy professor spoke about (and I don't recollect the exact words) the imperfection of logic. I vividly recall the example. He picked someone and told her that he could use logic and prove that it would be impossible for her to make it from one side of the room to the other. He said in order to make it from one side to the other, she'd have to cross the halfway point. He continued and said that she wouldn't even make it that far because from where she is and the halfway point is yet another halfway point. The expressed idea was that she won't make it across the room because there's an infinite number of halfway points.

He assured us there was no flaw in the logic, yet the conclusion was absurd, as it was obvious that we could walk across the room. All of this was to point out something about the limits of logic.
The paradox here is normally attributed to Zeno of Elea, a Greek philosopher/mystic who apparently claimed that all motion was impossible and, I think, that reality was generally an illusion. I say "apparently", because his arguments only survive in the words of his critics. In one of his paradoxes, he imagines a race between a tortoise and Achilles, where the tortoise gets a head start. Achilles can never overtake the tortoise, because he must first at least get half way to the tortoise. And then he must cover at least half the remaining distance. And then he must cover at least half the distance left. And so on, and so on.

My objection to the argument is to just to say: sure, I have an infinity of half way points to cross. But I have an infinity of time slots (each half the size as the previous) in which to do it. I'll cover half the space in half the time, so it's totally doable.

- - - Updated - - -

Then tell me how a train makes a first move that is anything but the smallest move possible.
The train doesn't make a first move. Why are you asking me to argue for the opposite of my position?

We're done here. I don't think I've come across someone who is so blind to question begging. It's simultaneously impressive and boring.
 
Last edited:
How is there ANY movement if there in not a first movement?

In an object is at rest and it moves there MUST have been a very first movement.

Or there would have been NO movement.
So YOU say. I say that there CAN be movement WITHOUT a first movement. I can even repeat this three times, if you like.

Now how do we proceed?

That should be very easy. One of you has to make the first move. :rolleyes:
EB
 
Thats interesting with the infinite divisional points.

I suppose If the argument for the train having a cause to first move, which I think untermensche was probably making - Could instead be asked that; if the train at its first position A ended up at position B say ... a distance of a mile away. You could then ask "What caused the train to first move from A to B?"
 
This reminds me of the time a philosophy professor spoke about (and I don't recollect the exact words) the imperfection of logic. I vividly recall the example. He picked someone and told her that he could use logic and prove that it would be impossible for her to make it from one side of the room to the other. He said in order to make it from one side to the other, she'd have to cross the halfway point. He continued and said that she wouldn't even make it that far because from where she is and the halfway point is yet another halfway point. The expressed idea was that she won't make it across the room because there's an infinite number of halfway points.

He assured us there was no flaw in the logic, yet the conclusion was absurd, as it was obvious that we could walk across the room. All of this was to point out something about the limits of logic.

I don't think this has anything to do with any limit to logic.

Your philosophy professor was doing the same as UM, i.e. begging the question. In this instance, the unwarranted assumption he didn't make explicit was that nothing could possibly cross a gap if there's an infinity of points in the gap to cross.

UM's own assumption is very similar to this but the crucial point here is that making any unwarranted assumptions is just wrong and a mistake made by somebody, not any flaw in, or limit to, logic itself. People own the mistakes they make.
EB
 
Thats interesting with the infinite divisional points.

I suppose If the argument for the train having a cause to first move, which I think untermensche was probably making - Could instead be asked that; if the train at its first position A ended up at position B say ... a distance of a mile away. You could then ask "What caused the train to first move from A to B?"
You could. But maybe the problem here is that any talk of "causation" already begs the question that there are firsts, seconds, thirds and so on. Causality isn't part of the basic vocabulary of modern physics. Instead, you've got huge numbers of variables continuously and instantaneously influencing each other according to systems of differential equations, and the whole thing is time-symmetric, which sounds ridiculous to anyone who wants to talk about causation. Our talk of causation is happening at a much higher level, and should be assumed to be brittle.
 
UM said:
You can use words <snip>

Mathematics is an imaginary world that does not define the real one.

So why could words "define the real world" when maths somehow could not? :confused:

Beats me.
EB
 
The paradox here is normally attributed to Zeno of Elea, a Greek philosopher/mystic who apparently claimed that all motion was impossible and, I think, that reality was generally an illusion. I say "apparently", because his arguments only survive in the words of his critics. In one of his paradoxes, he imagines a race between a tortoise and Achilles, where the tortoise gets a head start. Achilles can never overtake the tortoise, because he must first at least get half way to the tortoise. And then he must cover at least half the remaining distance. And then he must cover at least half the distance left. And so on, and so on.

My objection to the argument is to just to say: sure, I have an infinity of half way points to cross. But I have an infinity of time slots (each half the size as the previous) in which to do it. I'll cover half the space in half the time, so it's totally doable.

One, a UM-like one that is, may want to argue that no one could possibly do that because if time is continuous it could not possibly move forward into the future because there would have to be a first move by the smallest amount of time possible.

You couldn't possibly fault the logic of that. You would have to make the first move.

- - - Updated - - -

Then tell me how a train makes a first move that is anything but the smallest move possible.
The train doesn't make a first move. Why are you asking me to argue for the opposite of my position?

We're done here. I don't think I've come across someone who is so blind to question begging. It's simultaneously impressive and boring.

I don't know. It's like Proust's madeleine.

UM's posture is so flagrantly and fragrantly reminiscent of the original Zeno of Elea's posture that I feel quite emotional.

It's like a trip to the ancient Hellenic world of philosophy. You could almost smell the salt and iodine in the Mediterranean air as UM of Elea is lecturing a group of skeptical but obviously semi-idiotic students!

And, I just walked past Marcel Proust's black marble tomb, and there, on top of it, were not one but four actual madeleines, lovingly arranged to suggest tea time to the casual passers-by. How could UM be possibly wrong?!
EB
 
You could. But maybe the problem here is that any talk of "causation" already begs the question that there are firsts, seconds, thirds and so on. Causality isn't part of the basic vocabulary of modern physics. Instead, you've got huge numbers of variables continuously and instantaneously influencing each other according to systems of differential equations, and the whole thing is time-symmetric, which sounds ridiculous to anyone who wants to talk about causation. Our talk of causation is happening at a much higher level, and should be assumed to be brittle.

Lacking the vocabulary of modern physics (compared to many here if not all). I think its understandable as to why the notion of "causation" (which sounds sensible - admittedly at my level) is brought into discussions when everything around us (matter or the universe etc) is seen or assumed as a result in its "present state or form", resulting from universe processes ..what ever they may be - to having some initial origin.
 
You could. But maybe the problem here is that any talk of "causation" already begs the question that there are firsts, seconds, thirds and so on. Causality isn't part of the basic vocabulary of modern physics. Instead, you've got huge numbers of variables continuously and instantaneously influencing each other according to systems of differential equations, and the whole thing is time-symmetric, which sounds ridiculous to anyone who wants to talk about causation. Our talk of causation is happening at a much higher level, and should be assumed to be brittle.

Lacking the vocabulary of modern physics (compared to many here if not all). I think its understandable as to why the notion of "causation" (which sounds sensible - admittedly at my level) is brought into discussions when everything around us (matter or the universe etc) is seen or assumed as a result in its "present state or form", resulting from universe processes ..what ever they may be - to having some initial origin.
I think that with the way physics turned out, what with general relativity and quantum mechanics, our folk insights and assumptions need to be cast aside. This, I think, means that metaphysics is impossible.
 
The train doesn't make a first move. Why are you asking me to argue for the opposite of my position?

We're done here. I don't think I've come across someone who is so blind to question begging. It's simultaneously impressive and boring.

If this is really your first untermensche experience, you caught on really quickly! He constantly makes these incorrect statements and then never admits it when they're shown to be wrong and explained to him.

His conclusion is that our brains simply can't deal with his arguments.
 
The train doesn't make a first move. Why are you asking me to argue for the opposite of my position?

We're done here. I don't think I've come across someone who is so blind to question begging. It's simultaneously impressive and boring.

I love it when they announce they are done when they have done nothing.

How is there any movement if there is not an initial (first) movement?

If you say the train makes no first move then it does not move.

I am not talking about a train that does not move.
 
UM said:
You can use words <snip>

Mathematics is an imaginary world that does not define the real one.

So why could words "define the real world" when maths somehow could not? :confused:

Beats me.
EB

?

This is so lost I barely know what to make of it.

The world is not defined by mathematics.

Numbers are not real, not even real numbers.

The way you define movement with words is you say the train moved in relation to the track. It rolled forward.

And the first move it made was the smallest possible move, as occurs when anything moves. There is no choice.
 
The train doesn't make a first move. Why are you asking me to argue for the opposite of my position?

We're done here. I don't think I've come across someone who is so blind to question begging. It's simultaneously impressive and boring.

If this is really your first untermensche experience, you caught on really quickly! He constantly makes these incorrect statements and then never admits it when they're shown to be wrong and explained to him.

His conclusion is that our brains simply can't deal with his arguments.

Yet you can't show one argument that is in error and show how it is in error.

You merely throw an absurd label on the whole thing that is a lie and run away.

Only fools think infinity is real and think something can move without having an initial smallest possible movement.
 
What is this "smallest possible movement" being spoken of?

Let's say the stationary train moves two feet and stops. It could have moved one foot and stopped. Because it went two feet before stopping instead of going one foot and stopping, it didn't make the smallest possible move when it first moved. :p
 
I think that with the way physics turned out, what with general relativity and quantum mechanics, our folk insights and assumptions need to be cast aside. This, I think, means that metaphysics is impossible.

You'd be throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

Rather, like many things, it's a matter of keeping the right proportions. All we have to think up the world are our most basic intuitive assumptions, such as we should trust our perceptions and we should trust our sense of logic. You wouldn't want to throw that away because you'd have nothing left. And then, you still need to work out some rational view of the human experience, which, again, can only be grounded on our perceptions and sense of logic. Where does metaphysics start in this process? I believe it starts immediately when you decide to trust your perceptions and your sense of logic. Ultimately, it is the interplay between our own personal assumptions and that of others as conveyed through verbal interactions which provide the rational basis for our view of the world. Yet, we shouldn't forget all this is based on our initial assumptions. Even the idea that collaboration between human beings acting collectively justifies our trust is ultimately grounded in our initial assumption. What metaphysicians may sometimes be guilty of is pushing the game too far by piling up assumptions. Yet, Nobody is forced to act on their pronouncements, unlike what happens with a number of pronouncements by scientists or indeed religious institutions. Metaphysics should be seen in the same light as mathematics. It's there if you think you need it but you can live your entire life ignoring it altogether. Of course, unlike for mathematics, I couldn't give any precise example of an uncontroversially useful metaphysical idea but I also think that metaphysical considerations are more or less pervasive within the processes of rational thought, including rational thought underpinning all scientific work.

What Quantum Physics and Relativity have shown is that we need to be prepared to rethink entirely our model of how the world is, including rethinking, reinterpreting, the significance of our most basic assumptions.

We probably all intuitively tend to think of time as definitely something that exists independently of us and independently of space. Einstein's work forces us to reconsider this assumption: there's no such a thing as a universal time that would apply uniformly everywhere. Instead, all it seems we can do is measure locally the time dimension of continuous space-time intervals along causally connected paths. With the result that two twins could start from one location, split to take different routes through space-time but end up together in another space-time location having aged very differently, while having lived separate but perfectly normal lives in between. In effect, the time dimension seems to behave somewhat like a fourth space dimension.

So what is best discarded are any strong, religious-like commitment, to whatever may be our current interpretation of our intuitions rather than the intuitions themselves because trusting experimentation and collaboration with other people are also, ultimately, grounded in our intuitions that we should trust our perceptions and our sense of logic.
EB
 
Last edited:
The train doesn't make a first move. Why are you asking me to argue for the opposite of my position?

We're done here. I don't think I've come across someone who is so blind to question begging. It's simultaneously impressive and boring.

If this is really your first untermensche experience, you caught on really quickly! He constantly makes these incorrect statements and then never admits it when they're shown to be wrong and explained to him.

His conclusion is that our brains simply can't deal with his arguments.

Yes and yet we properly categorised his argument as wrong.

Still, I think it remains true that our brains cannot deal not with the argument itself but with his initial assumption about "first move".

It remains fascinating to me that anyone should stick to such an assumption. Yet, come to think of it, I don't remember anyone actually providing a full and detailed explanation as to why Zeno of Elea's Achilles & the Tortoise argument was wrong except the one Phil Scott just provided in this thread:

Phil Scott said:
My objection to the argument is to just to say: sure, I have an infinity of half way points to cross. But I have an infinity of time slots (each half the size as the previous) in which to do it. I'll cover half the space in half the time, so it's totally doable.

If anyone know of any previous occurrence, I'd like to know.
EB
 
What is this "smallest possible movement" being spoken of?

Let's say the stationary train moves two feet and stops. It could have moved one foot and stopped. Because it went two feet before stopping instead of going one foot and stopping, it didn't make the smallest possible move when it first moved. :p

What was the trains very first movement? The absolute smallest movement it was possible for the train to make?

Are you also one who claims there can be movement without an initial movement?
 
What is this "smallest possible movement" being spoken of?

Let's say the stationary train moves two feet and stops. It could have moved one foot and stopped. Because it went two feet before stopping instead of going one foot and stopping, it didn't make the smallest possible move when it first moved. :p

What was the trains very first movement? The absolute smallest movement it was possible for the train to make?

Are you also one who claims there can be movement without an initial movement?

The first movement (relative to the track, for you relativity lovers) would not include internal movements that necessitate external movement (otherwise that would confuse "movement of" with "movement within," so I guess the smallest possible movement would be the first Planck length distance traversed.
 
It remains fascinating to me that anyone should stick to such an assumption. Yet, come to think of it, I don't remember anyone actually providing a full and detailed explanation as to why Zeno of Elea's Achilles & the Tortoise argument was wrong except the one Phil Scott just provided in this thread:

Phil Scott said:
My objection to the argument is to just to say: sure, I have an infinity of half way points to cross. But I have an infinity of time slots (each half the size as the previous) in which to do it. I'll cover half the space in half the time, so it's totally doable.

If anyone know of any previous occurrence, I'd like to know.
EB
Other than Phil's post, I haven't really seen anyone attempt to challenge UM's postulate about the "problem" of minimal initial distance.
 
Back
Top Bottom