What would count as proof of God

[Jarhyn]

@FievelJ and I wouldn't exactly care even at that point. The fact that I, an asshole not worthy really of consideration or veneration by my creations play Dwarf Fortress: Slaves to Armok, I observe that some asshole playing Universe: Slaves to Allah or whatever is equally likely of being as much of a shit as alien-Jesus, or for that matter, me.

 

[Learner]

I know I posted one before in here, but what are the chances that Jesus Christ will come down from heaven, then visit all cultures?

Maybe that would do it for me, but also maybe not either.
My first question would be what happened to coming back in 2000?

How would you differentiate this from, say, an alien of some form coming down from space wearing a number of identical skin suits, meat drones, holograms, or whatever, claiming it was Jesus, and getting us to give it something-or-other or simply trolling the shit out of us with it like "look at these fucking suckers"?

Either that or someone who looks like what Jesus is suppose to look like, stealing everything and making claims that they are Jesus Christ.

Kinda my point. It would have to be something... Well, in the stupid video game that I play where I am exactly the thing that I describe, some thing that has spun up a simulation of some kind and administrates it and occasionally rolls an avatar into existence.

Assuming I was an entity similar to what I am now, but sitting in a place where I have a machine running "Universe: Slaves to Allah" or whatever instead of "Dwarf Fortress: Slaves of Armok", I could prove it by spinning up a body into existence ex-nihlo without something Very Bad happening as a result, pulling open the debug console, and doing some ridiculous shit that would appear entirely uncaused, that if done through normal physical means, would probably have side effects like exploding the earth, or producing a gravity wave that would implode it.

It would take something like that to prove it to me.

For such a thing to be proved to you, It would need to be YOU who's doing the spinning up the existence of some universe? Obviously, you'll NEVER get THAT level of proof from anyone else, the usual religious belief claims, which would seem so so minor and trivial compared to your method for proof.

 

[Jarhyn]

I know I posted one before in here, but what are the chances that Jesus Christ will come down from heaven, then visit all cultures?

Maybe that would do it for me, but also maybe not either.
My first question would be what happened to coming back in 2000?

How would you differentiate this from, say, an alien of some form coming down from space wearing a number of identical skin suits, meat drones, holograms, or whatever, claiming it was Jesus, and getting us to give it something-or-other or simply trolling the shit out of us with it like "look at these fucking suckers"?

Either that or someone who looks like what Jesus is suppose to look like, stealing everything and making claims that they are Jesus Christ.

Kinda my point. It would have to be something... Well, in the stupid video game that I play where I am exactly the thing that I describe, some thing that has spun up a simulation of some kind and administrates it and occasionally rolls an avatar into existence.

Assuming I was an entity similar to what I am now, but sitting in a place where I have a machine running "Universe: Slaves to Allah" or whatever instead of "Dwarf Fortress: Slaves of Armok", I could prove it by spinning up a body into existence ex-nihlo without something Very Bad happening as a result, pulling open the debug console, and doing some ridiculous shit that would appear entirely uncaused, that if done through normal physical means, would probably have side effects like exploding the earth, or producing a gravity wave that would implode it.

It would take something like that to prove it to me.

For such a thing to be proved to you, It would need to be YOU who's doing the spinning up the existence of some universe? Obviously, you'll NEVER get THAT level of proof from anyone else, the usual religious belief claims, which would seem so so minor and trivial compared to your method for proof.

It clearly doesn't have to be me spinning up a simulation or whatever, but yes whoever it is who makes claims of such would have to prove it by violating causality wantonly.

Will I ever get that level of proof?

No.

Does that mean that the usual religious belief claims are spurious?

It isn't my fault that religious believers make such wild and unsupported claims that would only be supported by acts that, if done within the bounds of physical causality, would tend to explode planets.

Imagine that you are creating a simple rock ex-nihlo, just a tiny little miracle, right?

Well, unlike on a stupid little video game where it's easy to do that. I don't have to contend with such oddities as air, and shock waves traveling through it.

I proof a decently large rock out of nowhere? The planet explodes, merely on account of the instantaneous displacement of the air around the rock generating an instantaneous shock wave at luminal speeds.

The fact is, most "minor and trivial" religious "miracles" are like this, not so minor and trivial about, owing to the mechanics of the universe we happen to live in. The claimant is usually just rankly ignorant of what it is they are claiming.

This is why religious folks should generally just shut up about the idea that it's been "proven" to them by "god" or whatever. It hasn't, they're just suckers for easy lies.

 

[Kylie]

So it's been asked here and within philosophy generally, what would qualify as convincing evidence of God to a skeptic not ideologically inclined to believe?

I thought of something that would be rather compelling. Suppose one day every person on the planet simultaneously saw the face and heard the voice of God in the sky. That voice simultaneously declared to every human some personal fact unknown to anyone but that person, then also told them some personal fact unknown to anyone about a total stranger they never met along with that person's contact information so they could verify it. It wouldn't be surprising to for those who already believe to claim both facts they were told are accurate. But this would mean that every non-believing human would also verify their unique facts, which means many millions of people worldwide. While mass hallucinations can occur, they do so b/c all the people are within a particular shared context and frame of mind. That would be impossible for everyone on the planet at the same moment. I can't think of any possible explanation that wouldn't entail some form of supernatural, either God or at least some moment of unified psychic type consciousness.

Would you find this convincing? If not, what alternative explanation could you give?

Something that I've read on the net...

What would it take to convince me that the Bible is divinely inspired? A passage like this:

"And the Earth moved in a great circle around the sun, held in place by the sun's mass. And the circle was not perfect, but was longer in one direction than the perpendicular, and the passage of the Earth swept out equal areas in equal times. And the sun shone with the light of its tiniest parts coming together."

Such a passage speaks fairly clearly of:
1. Heliocentric solar system
2. Gravity caused by mass
3. Elliptical orbits
4. Kepler's Law of equal areas
5. Nuclear fusion in the sun.

And there's no way at all people living thousands of years ago could possibly have known it.

 

[ramoss]

So it's been asked here and within philosophy generally, what would qualify as convincing evidence of God to a skeptic not ideologically inclined to believe?

I thought of something that would be rather compelling. Suppose one day every person on the planet simultaneously saw the face and heard the voice of God in the sky. That voice simultaneously declared to every human some personal fact unknown to anyone but that person, then also told them some personal fact unknown to anyone about a total stranger they never met along with that person's contact information so they could verify it. It wouldn't be surprising to for those who already believe to claim both facts they were told are accurate. But this would mean that every non-believing human would also verify their unique facts, which means many millions of people worldwide. While mass hallucinations can occur, they do so b/c all the people are within a particular shared context and frame of mind. That would be impossible for everyone on the planet at the same moment. I can't think of any possible explanation that wouldn't entail some form of supernatural, either God or at least some moment of unified psychic type consciousness.

Would you find this convincing? If not, what alternative explanation could you give?

For me, all those stories would not mean a thing. Stories are stories. What it would take for me to believe in any anthropomorphic god is an act of God. The way that act of God would be defined is 'something that makes me believe.

 

[Harry Bosch]

So it's been asked here and within philosophy generally, what would qualify as convincing evidence of God to a skeptic not ideologically inclined to believe?

I thought of something that would be rather compelling. Suppose one day every person on the planet simultaneously saw the face and heard the voice of God in the sky. That voice simultaneously declared to every human some personal fact unknown to anyone but that person, then also told them some personal fact unknown to anyone about a total stranger they never met along with that person's contact information so they could verify it. It wouldn't be surprising to for those who already believe to claim both facts they were told are accurate. But this would mean that every non-believing human would also verify their unique facts, which means many millions of people worldwide. While mass hallucinations can occur, they do so b/c all the people are within a particular shared context and frame of mind. That would be impossible for everyone on the planet at the same moment. I can't think of any possible explanation that wouldn't entail some form of supernatural, either God or at least some moment of unified psychic type consciousness.

Would you find this convincing? If not, what alternative explanation could you give?

Something that I've read on the net...

What would it take to convince me that the Bible is divinely inspired? A passage like this:

"And the Earth moved in a great circle around the sun, held in place by the sun's mass. And the circle was not perfect, but was longer in one direction than the perpendicular, and the passage of the Earth swept out equal areas in equal times. And the sun shone with the light of its tiniest parts coming together."

Such a passage speaks fairly clearly of:
1. Heliocentric solar system
2. Gravity caused by mass
3. Elliptical orbits
4. Kepler's Law of equal areas
5. Nuclear fusion in the sun.

And there's no way at all people living thousands of years ago could possibly have known it.

Yea, there's just nothing special in the bible. God could have told his followers to not own a slave. He didn't. In fact, he upheld the tradition and spelled out how certain slaves should be treated. There's no special scientific knowledge in the bible that is special or unknown to other peoples. In fact, most of the scientific knowledge in the bible is bonkers. Turn the other cheek, love your neighbor, and etc were all commonly held tenants in other older religions. There's nothing special about the bible...

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

The Bible says he is a fool that builds his house on sand... yet sand is actually a good thing to build on. Instant settlement during construction, drains well. He is a fool that builds his house on sand next to a river... or on organic soils.

And the Lord said, if the liquid limit is that of the plastic limit and the particle sizes are finer than sand, be cautious when excavating as in short-term they shall stand near vertical... but they willth slough.

or

And the Lord warned that digging in water bearing soils could cause a quick condition, where the water pressure is at or greater than the confining pressure of the sands, which will cause the digger to sink.