Where are the Christian skeptics?

[Lion IRC]

2. I didn't say anyone was savage, but that the concepts Christians value reflect some of the most depraved and savage and backward aspects of human thought and behavior. Beliefs are not people.

There's two types of Christian.
Those who dispute that their Christianity is "depraved and savage and backward".
And those who apologize for their Christianity being "depraved and savage and backward".

This is at the heart of the problem referred to by the Op.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

Come to think of it, the vast majority of religious types in the U.S. are scientifically illiterate. This certainly answers the OP’s question.

 

[DrZoidberg]

She started out atheist. Without devulging too many personal details. She had a serious accident that gave her a long term crippling condition. She spiralled into depression and eventually became suicidal. Her family and boyfriend (at the time) was not suportive to the degree they needed to be. Out of sheer desperation she turned to the church. And they were awesome. She got the help and support she needed and they helped her through it. She has given me the impression that at no point did her beliefs change throughout all this. To quote her on why she goes to church "it just works for me".

At each service if she doesn't understand a Biblical message she will come up to the priest and ask him. She takes this shit very seriously. She just doesn't seem to worry so much about whether God exists or not.

For example, she doesn't believe in Heaven, or the afterlife. She thinks it's just something we tell children to make them less upset about granny being dead. She thinks that sensible Christians must surely understand, on some level, that that part is all bullshit.

The official stance on the Bible in the church of Denmark is that it's full of flaws and a product of it's time. It's not a fundamentalist denomination. She shares this belief. Which gives believers a lot of lattitude on faith.

Sounds to me like she enjoys the rituals and the community, understandable given what she went through. It could be called the church of XYZ and she'd be an XYZian.

I'd argue that's every Christian/religious person. What sets them apart is the level of delusion.

 

[DrZoidberg]

2. I didn't say anyone was savage, but that the concepts Christians value reflect some of the most depraved and savage and backward aspects of human thought and behavior. Beliefs are not people.

There's two types of Christian.
Those who dispute that their Christianity is "depraved and savage and backward".
And those who apologize for their Christianity being "depraved and savage and backward".

This is at the heart of the problem referred to by the Op.

I'm not so sure. I like Steven Pinker's way to describe it. The whole point of civilisation is to prevent humans from being themselves. Humans in our natural state are horrendous vile and violent creatures. Every institution humans have devised has been designed to protect us from ourselves. I think religion is part of this piece of the puzzle.

Different ages have different problems. And since the Bible is a bronze age product it's a bit out of date. The world was more savage back then. But we're not idiots. We know this. So we can skip those more unsavoury parts. Human psychology is the same, so most of it still applies.

 

[Learner]

Skip the more unsavoury parts but leave the old politics as they are. Agreed ...the human psychology is the same & still applies in todays "safe" world.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Skip the more unsavoury parts but leave the old politics as they are. Agreed ...the human psychology is the same & still applies in todays "safe" world.

I heard an economics lecture once where the speaker was making the argument that each age had about as much slavery is was necessary. In the bronze age world if we'd divided everything equally and lived in peace the malthusian trap would have led us to expand our populations to its limit and then almost everybody would have starved to death. The institution of slavery is a solution to the malthusian trap. Because if food runs out the slaves are the first to go.

It wasn't until we got mechanisation and artificial fertilizers that we could break this cycle. Which incidentally is when we stopped having slaves. It's no coincidence that the industrial revolution started in the first country to ban slavery.

My point is that the Bibles endorsement of slavery wasn't a moral failing and great evil. It was an acknowledgement of it and rules for making the lives of slaves a little bit less awful.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

2. I didn't say anyone was savage, but that the concepts Christians value reflect some of the most depraved and savage and backward aspects of human thought and behavior. Beliefs are not people.

There's two types of Christian.
Those who dispute that their Christianity is "depraved and savage and backward".
And those who apologize for their Christianity being "depraved and savage and backward".

This is at the heart of the problem referred to by the Op.

I'm not so sure. I like Steven Pinker's way to describe it. The whole point of civilisation is to prevent humans from being themselves. Humans in our natural state are horrendous vile and violent creatures. Every institution humans have devised has been designed to protect us from ourselves. I think religion is part of this piece of the puzzle.

Different ages have different problems. And since the Bible is a bronze age product it's a bit out of date. The world was more savage back then. But we're not idiots. We know this. So we can skip those more unsavoury parts. Human psychology is the same, so most of it still applies.

It's called natural selection. We're no different than any other organism or piece of the cosmos. We're nothing special. A huge part of the delusion is believing oneself is something special or privileged or chosen for. Religion is nothing special either. It's a reflection of environmental selection pressure 100% determined by environment. There is obviously, presently, a survival advantage in believing oneself is special. It's empowering I suppose because it gives one a license to perform whatever act one chooses. The most vile people on the planet are the ones who think they are special, licensed to act unilaterally. They are the crazy ones today but generations ago they were the conquerors and the saviors and the deliverers and the leaders. Let's hope that is changing because of the same forces of natural selection that made it important to our survival.

There are a lot more people today, that's why we're changing our behavior. We see the same thing in other primate behavior when we increase their numbers in a given space.

 

[DrZoidberg]

I'm not so sure. I like Steven Pinker's way to describe it. The whole point of civilisation is to prevent humans from being themselves. Humans in our natural state are horrendous vile and violent creatures. Every institution humans have devised has been designed to protect us from ourselves. I think religion is part of this piece of the puzzle.

Different ages have different problems. And since the Bible is a bronze age product it's a bit out of date. The world was more savage back then. But we're not idiots. We know this. So we can skip those more unsavoury parts. Human psychology is the same, so most of it still applies.

It's called natural selection. We're no different than any other organism or piece of the cosmos. We're nothing special. A huge part of the delusion is believing oneself is something special or privileged or chosen for. Religion is nothing special either. It's a reflection of environmental selection pressure 100% determined by environment. There is obviously, presently, a survival advantage in believing oneself is special. It's empowering I suppose because it gives one a license to perform whatever act one chooses. The most vile people on the planet are the ones who think they are special, licensed to act unilaterally. They are the crazy ones today but generations ago they were the conquerors and the saviors and the deliverers and the leaders. Let's hope that is changing because of the same forces of natural selection that made it important to our survival.

There are a lot more people today, that's why we're changing our behavior. We see the same thing in other primate behavior when we increase their numbers in a given space.

Yes. I saw a study comparing degrees of civilisation in pre-colonial South America. It's interesting that west of the Andees sophisticated societies evolved and east they stayed savage. The conclusion of that study was that forcing people to live in close proximity forces them to devise ways to put their differences aside. Violence in society decreases sharply.

Having the delusion that we're special and that we have a personal relationship with the creator of the universe is still empowering. It's nuts. But it's empowering. I'm for any belief that allows us to get up from bed with a spring in our step. I don't care if it's delusional.