White evangelicals and white fragility

[Underseer]

Near as I can tell, this article is written from the perspective of an African-American evangelical.

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/opinion-miller-white-fragility_us_5aef28ece4b0c4f19323b132

Faith is a central part of any Christian belief system. Certainty is often revered as better than doubt or questioning, and thus Christians are compelled to create, in the context of their faith, defensive postures against anything that dares to challenge what they know to be true. Any counterpoint, any varying belief, is seen as an attack on Christian values as a whole. Christians are taught that what they perceive of what is inside of them is the most important factor in any scenario ― race not excluded.

Much of the article simply describes/explains white fragility, and spends little time discussing the role evangelical beliefs/attitudes play in white fragility. If she is a black evangelical, then it is expected that she would try to gloss over the role Evangelicalism plays in exacerbating white fragility. The fact that she discussed it at all is in and of itself pretty remarkable.

If you are not familiar with the concept of white fragility, here's a paper that goes into more detail. The full PDF is not behind a paywall. Here's a direct link to the PDF if you prefer.

 

[southernhybrid]

I'm not sure if I agree that this evangelical privilege is limited to white people. I say that because I've had at least two encounters with black Christians that left me feeling attacked. I don't let other people devalue me, but the reactions that I got from black Christians when I told them I was an atheist were just as crazy as any reaction I've ever received from a white Christian. Sure, there is white privilege. I get that, but perhaps it would be better if it was called something else, since there are plenty of white people who don't have that privilege. For example, I lived in a highly integrated town, almost exactly half and half black to white, with many mixed race families as well. I've known plenty of poor, uneducated white folks that have had to deal with some of the exact same issues that most black folks deal with, when it comes to being treated poorly or judged harshly.

As an atheist, who rarely hides her beliefs, I've had to deal with negative remarks, outrage, and "I'll pray for you" comments from Christians, both black and white. I agree that evangelicals are fragile, but I'm not sure that the fragility has as much to do with their white privilege as it does to their Christian privilege.


I also read part of your other article about white fragility. I didn't finish reading it because it made a lot of generalizations and stereotypes about white people. That made me wonder why it's okay to make generalizations about one group of people with a certain skin pigmentation. I would never make generalizations about black people. Actually, there was a lot that I couldn't relate to in that article. Maybe it's because I've always interacted with lots of black people, in the workplace, in my profession, in the senior center etc. The one thing I missed in my last job prior to retirement was that the place where I worked didn't have any black residents, not that I would blame any older black adult for not wanting to live in a place that was full of older white adults. I just enjoyed having patients of all different backgrounds, races, ethnicities etc. like I did when I was a home health nurse and a public health nurse. Diversity is what makes life more interesting.

But yeah. Things are a mess right now. Evangelicals are crazier than ever and sadly, many of them suffer from unwarranted persecution complexes. And it's a good thing for black and white people to have open discussions about racism, because racism still exists and as long as old, white, entitled men are running government and corporations, it probably will continue to be that way.

 

[J842P]

Near as I can tell, this article is written from the perspective of an African-American evangelical.

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/opinion-miller-white-fragility_us_5aef28ece4b0c4f19323b132

Faith is a central part of any Christian belief system. Certainty is often revered as better than doubt or questioning, and thus Christians are compelled to create, in the context of their faith, defensive postures against anything that dares to challenge what they know to be true. Any counterpoint, any varying belief, is seen as an attack on Christian values as a whole. Christians are taught that what they perceive of what is inside of them is the most important factor in any scenario ― race not excluded.

Much of the article simply describes/explains white fragility, and spends little time discussing the role evangelical beliefs/attitudes play in white fragility. If she is a black evangelical, then it is expected that she would try to gloss over the role Evangelicalism plays in exacerbating white fragility. The fact that she discussed it at all is in and of itself pretty remarkable.

If you are not familiar with the concept of white fragility, here's a paper that goes into more detail. The full PDF is not behind a paywall. Here's a direct link to the PDF if you prefer.

The international Journal of Critical Pedagogy?

Let me guess... the methods section is pretty threadbare...

 

[Underseer]

I'm not sure if I agree that this evangelical privilege is limited to white people.

Yes, religion has a position of privilege as evidenced by the taboo against challenging or questioning religious truth claims. However, that is a completely separate issue.

I say that because I've had at least two encounters with black Christians that left me feeling attacked. I don't let other people devalue me, but the reactions that I got from black Christians when I told them I was an atheist were just as crazy as any reaction I've ever received from a white Christian.

I agree that the higher religiosity of African-Americans is a bit silly given that they are practicing a religion that was imposed on their ancestors by slave owners, but at the same time bear in mind that for a very long time, the church was the only extrafamilial institution they had any control over, and so it was a critical part of enduring centuries of racist abuse. If we're going to criticize black Christians, the bigger issue is how they treat African-Americans who leave Christianity for another religion or for atheism

Sure, there is white privilege.

Here it comes.

I get that, but perhaps it would be better if it was called something else, since there are plenty of white people who don't have that privilege.

If you are more bothered by what people call white privilege than the fact that white privilege exists, then you are exhibiting exactly the white fragility this article talks about. I also offered a link to the white paper that (I believe) coined the term if you want further reading on the topic.

You and I benefit from grotesque racial inequalities inherent in our society, justice system, economy, political system, etc. Of course talking about that is going to make you feel uncomfortable. The fact that white people place more importance on how they feel about talking about racism than the injustices suffered by others is part of the problem.

For example, I lived in a highly integrated town, almost exactly half and half black to white, with many mixed race families as well. I've known plenty of poor, uneducated white folks that have had to deal with some of the exact same issues that most black folks deal with, when it comes to being treated poorly or judged harshly.

Yes. Bad things also happen to white people.

The complaint about white privilege is not that bad things don't happen to white people. At no time did anyone complaining about white privilege ever make the claim that white people never have bad things happen to them. How can you live in a mixed community without making an attempt to understand what white privilege is and how it affects other people?

As an atheist, who rarely hides her beliefs, I've had to deal with negative remarks, outrage, and "I'll pray for you" comments from Christians, both black and white. I agree that evangelicals are fragile, but I'm not sure that the fragility has as much to do with their white privilege as it does to their Christian privilege.

Religious privilege is a serious issue and one that is possibly holding humanity back, but as mentioned before this is far outside the discussion about white privilege.

I also read part of your other article about white fragility. I didn't finish reading it because it made a lot of generalizations and stereotypes about white people. That made me wonder why it's okay to make generalizations about one group of people with a certain skin pigmentation. I would never make generalizations about black people. Actually, there was a lot that I couldn't relate to in that article. Maybe it's because I've always interacted with lots of black people, in the workplace, in my profession, in the senior center etc. The one thing I missed in my last job prior to retirement was that the place where I worked didn't have any black residents, not that I would blame any older black adult for not wanting to live in a place that was full of older white adults. I just enjoyed having patients of all different backgrounds, races, ethnicities etc. like I did when I was a home health nurse and a public health nurse. Diversity is what makes life more interesting.

Why don't you be more specific about the concepts you had a problem with? Because I didn't see anything in the article that bothered me other than her reticence to pin certain things on Christianity.

But yeah. Things are a mess right now. Evangelicals are crazier than ever and sadly, many of them suffer from unwarranted persecution complexes. And it's a good thing for black and white people to have open discussions about racism, because racism still exists and as long as old, white, entitled men are running government and corporations, it probably will continue to be that way.

Yes.

Things are a mess right now.

And any time someone wants to discuss racism and the effects of racism, large numbers of white people get offended that the discussion is happening at all, and demand restrictions upon the discussion or that the discussion stop happening in order to protect their feelings. They are honestly more offended that people want to talk about racism than the racism itself, which harms a large number of people and benefits them.

And that's exactly the problem with white fragility. It is almost certainly not done on purpose, but it is an example of people leveraging their privilege to impede attempts to reduce injustice.

 

[Underseer]

Near as I can tell, this article is written from the perspective of an African-American evangelical.

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/opinion-miller-white-fragility_us_5aef28ece4b0c4f19323b132

Faith is a central part of any Christian belief system. Certainty is often revered as better than doubt or questioning, and thus Christians are compelled to create, in the context of their faith, defensive postures against anything that dares to challenge what they know to be true. Any counterpoint, any varying belief, is seen as an attack on Christian values as a whole. Christians are taught that what they perceive of what is inside of them is the most important factor in any scenario ― race not excluded.

Much of the article simply describes/explains white fragility, and spends little time discussing the role evangelical beliefs/attitudes play in white fragility. If she is a black evangelical, then it is expected that she would try to gloss over the role Evangelicalism plays in exacerbating white fragility. The fact that she discussed it at all is in and of itself pretty remarkable.

If you are not familiar with the concept of white fragility, here's a paper that goes into more detail. The full PDF is not behind a paywall. Here's a direct link to the PDF if you prefer.

The international Journal of Critical Pedagogy?

Let me guess... the methods section is pretty threadbare...

I offered the link because as far as I know, that paper is what coined the term white fragility.

If we are going to discuss it, it helps to have a working definition.

Is it your contention that the definition of white fragility is wrong because it was published in a journal of low repute (I honestly have no idea how respected or disrespected the journal is), or is it your contention that white fragility itself does not exist because the journal is of low repute?

 

[braces_for_impact]

I think, especially in the case of evangelicals, that white fragility and religious privilege go hand in glove, reinforcing each other and exaggerating both religious and race relations with other groups. (Keep in mind I have not read the provided paper yet.)

It's human nature for groups I think, to want to hold onto and expand their privilege. If privilege is called out and corrective action is taken to level the playing field, it can feel like an attack to those that had that privilege. Today's white evangelicals are also in my view, hypersensitive to loss of status. It used to be Christian = Good person. No questions asked, no doubt given. Yet this is changing, because of a ludicrous amount of scandal, hypocrisy, and hate of these groups, and the ability for modern media to able to disseminate these negative stories broad and wide. Gun nuts...er, enthusiasts also are terrified of loss of status. Considering Christianity already has a built-in persecution complex, it easily transfers to white fragility.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

I'm not sure if I agree that this evangelical privilege is limited to white people. I say that because I've had at least two encounters with black Christians that left me feeling attacked. I don't let other people devalue me, but the reactions that I got from black Christians when I told them I was an atheist were just as crazy as any reaction I've ever received from a white Christian. Sure, there is white privilege. I get that, but perhaps it would be better if it was called something else, since there are plenty of white people who don't have that privilege. For example, I lived in a highly integrated town, almost exactly half and half black to white, with many mixed race families as well. I've known plenty of poor, uneducated white folks that have had to deal with some of the exact same issues that most black folks deal with, when it comes to being treated poorly or judged harshly.

As an atheist, who rarely hides her beliefs, I've had to deal with negative remarks, outrage, and "I'll pray for you" comments from Christians, both black and white. I agree that evangelicals are fragile, but I'm not sure that the fragility has as much to do with their white privilege as it does to their Christian privilege.


I also read part of your other article about white fragility. I didn't finish reading it because it made a lot of generalizations and stereotypes about white people. That made me wonder why it's okay to make generalizations about one group of people with a certain skin pigmentation. I would never make generalizations about black people. Actually, there was a lot that I couldn't relate to in that article. Maybe it's because I've always interacted with lots of black people, in the workplace, in my profession, in the senior center etc. The one thing I missed in my last job prior to retirement was that the place where I worked didn't have any black residents, not that I would blame any older black adult for not wanting to live in a place that was full of older white adults. I just enjoyed having patients of all different backgrounds, races, ethnicities etc. like I did when I was a home health nurse and a public health nurse. Diversity is what makes life more interesting.

But yeah. Things are a mess right now. Evangelicals are crazier than ever and sadly, many of them suffer from unwarranted persecution complexes. And it's a good thing for black and white people to have open discussions about racism, because racism still exists and as long as old, white, entitled men are running government and corporations, it probably will continue to be that way.

I'm going to agree with this because christians are supremacists. When I tell members of my family that I'm atheist they think I'm talking down to them, so they get offended.

 

[Jobar]

I don't think the word 'fragility' really fits here. It carries implications of over-sensitivity and excessive tenderness. It seems more about callousness, or insensitivity.

 

[southernhybrid]

If you are more bothered by what people call white privilege than the fact that white privilege exists, then you are exhibiting exactly the white fragility this article talks about. I also offered a link to the white paper that (I believe) coined the term if you want further reading on the topic.

You and I benefit from grotesque racial inequalities inherent in our society, justice system, economy, political system, etc. Of course talking about that is going to make you feel uncomfortable. The fact that white people place more importance on how they feel about talking about racism than the injustices suffered by others is part of the problem.

No. You misunderstood me. I have no problem personally with the term white privilege or class privilege for that matter. I know I have both to some extent. I am more concerned with how it impacts those white people that don't personally feel they have any type of privilege. If you're a poor white person, living in an integrated neighborhood, and you sometimes get harassed by the local police, it's hard for that particular group of people to identify with the term "privilege". I worry that it might make racial situations worse. Nobody likes to feel as if they are being stereotyped. I look at it this way. Most, but not all white people aren't subjected to the same bigotry that most black people are subjected to. I don't see this necessarily as privilege. It's not that white people get something special, it's that black people are often denied their basic civil rights. I just don't know of a good word that would make the same point, without causing the problem to be worse.

What I didn't like about your linked article is that it made too many generalizations about white people. If race relations are to progress, we need to see all people as human and not judge any groups of people by their skin pigmentation or culture. Judging anyone based on their race or ethnicity is wrong, imo. I despise all stereotypes of groups of people.

Off topic, but I will share an example. My husband is of Arabic heritage. When he used to fly once in awhile for business, he was always pulled aside, and searched. One time two black men that watched this happen, laughed and told him that he had it harder than they did. Shit happens. One time a white home health nurse that I worked with, went to visit a patient in a very poor, mostly black part of Atlanta. A black man approached her car, brandished a gun in her face and said, "What's the honkey bitch doing in this neighborhood"? Luckily, she took off without any harm done. What I'm trying to explain is that people of all backgrounds can be wonderful, tolerant people or they can be total assholes. We need to stop judging others by stupid things like skin color or culture. In fact, the Christians I know personally are decent people, so I shouldn't even judge them, even if many of them do have a certain amount of Christian privilege and some can be very annoying at times, especially the ones that tell me they will pray for me.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

Religious folk hear things in their sermons. One thing they are hearing presently is how persecuted they are and how secularism is attacking them, and how they should speak up and stand up for their beliefs. So when I get some of that relayed to me I'm not surprised.

Add to that my bluntness about belief in invisible sky beings keeping a record of how we use our sex organs and how bizarre and juvenile I think that is and I probably deserve what I get.

If our convictions are sound they should stand up to direct challenge and examination.

It's also a good thing to see yourself in other people, to not have an exclusivity club when it comes to making judgements. Speak your mind and also sit down together. We're all more alike than different.