Why are the Palestinians still in refugee camps?

[laughing dog]

I note that you aren't addressing the issue of what happens if you get what you want. What happens is genocide. You apparently are either totally in denial or you want to see another Holocaust. Which is it?



But it's irrelevant in regards to an assertion that a source is biased. Wikipedia is to a large degree a vote on the truth--works fine on non-controversial topics, works horribly on controversial ones.

Anyway, please learn the definition of treason because you keep using that word, and it doesn't mean what you think it means.

Attempting to aid an enemy to destroy your nation is treason.

It's only treason if you're a citizen.

Are you saying Israel was offering full citizenship to the Palestinian refugees? If you are, that's another example of your dishonesty regarding the 100,000 Offer.

They were before the war. The ones that didn't leave are citizens now.

There's no fracking way the Palestinians were citizens of Israel "before the war" because Israel didn't exist back then.

The citizenship went with the land.

Sheesh, Loren, for all your love of Israel you sure don't seem to know much about it.

I'm not the one that keeps making claims that don't pass the laugh test.

You're avoiding the point--it's irrelevant what the program entailed. What matters is the PLO forced the Palestinians not to accept it.

It's completely relevant.

Were the Israelis encouraging Palestinians to build illegal settlements in the West Bank?

Was this plan likely to cause trouble between Christian refugees and Palestinian landowners, and vice versa?

Did Israel have genuine legal authority to allocate the land, or was it merely asserting it?

If any of your red herrings were relevant you would expect the article to have said so. The problem was simply one of blocking it by illegal means.

What makes you think any of my questions are red herrings? If you're actually interested in this story of a failed resettlement program, then the question "Were the Israelis encouraging Palestinians to build illegal settlements in the West Bank? " is pertinent, especially since we know that Israel was enabling illegal Israeli settlements and the PLO was trying to force them to stop. Was this more of the same, or not?

They're red herrings because you're throwing out what-ifs that are contrary to the stated facts in order to distract from the reality: The refugee camps exist because the terrorists want them to exist.

Your insight into the terrorist mindset is fascinating. But to which terrorists do you refer - Palestinian or Israeli?

As you perfectly well know the answer to that I can only figure this is an attempt to derail.

I know your response reflects your bigoted mindset, not the reality. There are Israeli terrorists - rightwing settlers in disputed territories and their enablers.

 

[Jayjay]

The idea of returning to Israel is still the core objective of their leadership.

Not evidenced by their actions. They have to do lip service to the right of return to appear steadfast, but in reality the Palestinian leadership is more about their own survival than practical goals. And regardless, there is no moral basis to punish Palestinians for the lack of quality of their leaders.

Lip service? Then why all the propaganda aimed at their own people about it?

Why would they stop? It's a cheap way to appear "strong" in eyes of their people.

 

[Jayjay]

I note that you aren't addressing the issue of what happens if you get what you want. What happens is genocide. You apparently are either totally in denial or you want to see another Holocaust. Which is it?



But it's irrelevant in regards to an assertion that a source is biased. Wikipedia is to a large degree a vote on the truth--works fine on non-controversial topics, works horribly on controversial ones.

Anyway, please learn the definition of treason because you keep using that word, and it doesn't mean what you think it means.

Attempting to aid an enemy to destroy your nation is treason.

It's only treason if you're a citizen.

Are you saying Israel was offering full citizenship to the Palestinian refugees? If you are, that's another example of your dishonesty regarding the 100,000 Offer.

They were before the war. The ones that didn't leave are citizens now.

There's no fracking way the Palestinians were citizens of Israel "before the war" because Israel didn't exist back then.

The citizenship went with the land.

Sheesh, Loren, for all your love of Israel you sure don't seem to know much about it.

I'm not the one that keeps making claims that don't pass the laugh test.

You're avoiding the point--it's irrelevant what the program entailed. What matters is the PLO forced the Palestinians not to accept it.

It's completely relevant.

Were the Israelis encouraging Palestinians to build illegal settlements in the West Bank?

Was this plan likely to cause trouble between Christian refugees and Palestinian landowners, and vice versa?

Did Israel have genuine legal authority to allocate the land, or was it merely asserting it?

If any of your red herrings were relevant you would expect the article to have said so. The problem was simply one of blocking it by illegal means.

What makes you think any of my questions are red herrings? If you're actually interested in this story of a failed resettlement program, then the question "Were the Israelis encouraging Palestinians to build illegal settlements in the West Bank? " is pertinent, especially since we know that Israel was enabling illegal Israeli settlements and the PLO was trying to force them to stop. Was this more of the same, or not?

They're red herrings because you're throwing out what-ifs that are contrary to the stated facts in order to distract from the reality: The refugee camps exist because the terrorists want them to exist.

Your insight into the terrorist mindset is fascinating. But to which terrorists do you refer - Palestinian or Israeli?

As you perfectly well know the answer to that I can only figure this is an attempt to derail.

I know your response reflects your bigoted mindset, not the reality. There are Israeli terrorists - rightwing settlers in disputed territories and their enablers.

Your point was a derail because it has nothing to do with the original topic: the early 1970s efforts by Israel to help out the displaced Palestinians. Sure, the motivation behind this was probably the idea that if their life improves in Gaza (and West Bank, though my understanding is that the program never got that far), they wouldn't make such a fuss about not being able to return to Israel proper. But PLO didn't like this so they sabotaged the program.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Your insight into the terrorist mindset is fascinating. But to which terrorists do you refer - Palestinian or Israeli?

As you perfectly well know the answer to that I can only figure this is an attempt to derail.

I know your response reflects your bigoted mindset, not the reality. There are Israeli terrorists - rightwing settlers in disputed territories and their enablers.

In other words, you knew the answer.

While there are Israeli terrorists there are not enough of them to be a serious factor and note that many of the claimed attacks are really internal Palestinian matters or even fabrications. (There's an unwanted invasive species that looks a lot like an olive tree and pictures of it's removal are often reported as destroying Palestinian olive trees.)

 

[laughing dog]

I know your response reflects your bigoted mindset, not the reality. There are Israeli terrorists - rightwing settlers in disputed territories and their enablers.

In other words, you knew the answer.

I suspected you would completely ignore Israeli terrorists. You confirmed my suspicion.

While there are Israeli terrorists there are not enough of them to be a serious factor

Nonsense - the Israeli gov't has been under the thrall of those terrorists for years. Netanhyu enables them.

and note that many of the claimed attacks are really internal Palestinian matters or even fabrications. (There's an unwanted invasive species that looks a lot like an olive tree and pictures of it's removal are often reported as destroying Palestinian olive trees.)

"Many?" - handwaved propaganda that you have a long history of swallowing without doubt.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I suspected you would completely ignore Israeli terrorists. You confirmed my suspicion.

While there are Israeli terrorists there are not enough of them to be a serious factor

Nonsense - the Israeli gov't has been under the thrall of those terrorists for years. Netanhyu enables them.

and note that many of the claimed attacks are really internal Palestinian matters or even fabrications. (There's an unwanted invasive species that looks a lot like an olive tree and pictures of it's removal are often reported as destroying Palestinian olive trees.)

"Many?" - handwaved propaganda that you have a long history of swallowing without doubt.

Now that you've admitted to derailing why don't you address the original issue?

 

[laughing dog]

I suspected you would completely ignore Israeli terrorists. You confirmed my suspicion.
Nonsense - the Israeli gov't has been under the thrall of those terrorists for years. Netanhyu enables them.
"Many?" - handwaved propaganda that you have a long history of swallowing without doubt.

Now that you've admitted to derailing why don't you address the original issue?

I did not bring up terrorists - you did. If anyone is derailing your Op, it is you.

 

[Arctish]

Now that you've admitted to derailing why don't you address the original issue?

The original issue was "Why are the Palestinians still in refugee camps?"

The answer is "Because the Israelis won't allow them to return to their homes and communities". If the Israelis had allowed the refugees of the 1948 War to go back home, those camps would have ceased to exist by the mid-1950s. New camps might have been created during the 1967 War but once again, if the Israelis had allowed the refugees to go back home the camps would have been empty by the mid-1970s. They certainly would not have persisted to this very day.

It appears you want the answer to be "Because the PLO is forcing Palestinians to stay in them", but aside from an unsubstantiated claim in an old opinion piece and your own bigoted thinking, you have shown nothing that would support such a conclusion.

If you really want to convince people the PLO bears responsibility for the camps full of Palestinian refugees then

1. make a convincing case that responsibility for the refugee situation shifted away from Israel,

2. explain why and how that happened, and

3. provide evidence that the responsibility shifted onto the PLO. Don't just assert it. Show the when, why, and how of it. Because right now, your assertion that an organization that was established in the 1960s bears responsibility for a situation that was created in the 1940s is nonsense.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I suspected you would completely ignore Israeli terrorists. You confirmed my suspicion.
Nonsense - the Israeli gov't has been under the thrall of those terrorists for years. Netanhyu enables them.
"Many?" - handwaved propaganda that you have a long history of swallowing without doubt.

Now that you've admitted to derailing why don't you address the original issue?

I did not bring up terrorists - you did. If anyone is derailing your Op, it is you.

I brought up Palestinian terrorist organizations. You started talking about Israeli terrorists (which are at most bit players anyway) instead, thus avoiding my point about Palestinian terrorists. If your intent was not to derail why don't you go back and address the issue you derailed?

 

[laughing dog]

I did not bring up terrorists - you did. If anyone is derailing your Op, it is you.

I brought up Palestinian terrorist organizations.

To quote you - "The refugee camps exist because the terrorists want them to exist." There is no mention of nationality. Your claim is incorrect.

So, I responded with
“Your insight into the terrorist mindset is fascinating. But to which terrorists do you refer - Palestinian or Israeli?”.

You started talking about Israeli terrorists (which are at most bit players anyway) instead, thus avoiding my point about Palestinian terrorists.

Your are incorrect. Did not avoid any point about Palestinian terrorists. I was pointing out there is more than one terrrorist group (and the Israelis are not bit players).

If your intent was not to derail why don't you go back and address the issue you derailed?

Accurately describing the situation is not a derail, so your claim is ridiculous. The only person derailing your bigoted OP is you with your incessant false accusations of derailment.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

To quote you - "The refugee camps exist because the terrorists want them to exist." There is no mention of nationality. Your claim is incorrect.

So, I responded with
“Your insight into the terrorist mindset is fascinating. But to which terrorists do you refer - Palestinian or Israeli?”.

You started talking about Israeli terrorists (which are at most bit players anyway) instead, thus avoiding my point about Palestinian terrorists.

Your are incorrect. Did not avoid any point about Palestinian terrorists. I was pointing out there is more than one terrrorist group (and the Israelis are not bit players).

If your intent was not to derail why don't you go back and address the issue you derailed?

Accurately describing the situation is not a derail, so your claim is ridiculous. The only person derailing your bigoted OP is you with your incessant false accusations of derailment.

1) I had previously identified the organization as the PLO. It's obvious what "terrorists" refer to.

2) I have already clarified the original, but you persist in this derail.

 

[laughing dog]

1) I had previously identified the organization as the PLO. It's obvious what "terrorists" refer to.

No, it is not. There are plenty of terrorists in that region. Your OP is about why the Palestinians are still in camps. We agree – because the terrorists want them there. We disagree on the extent of who the terrorists are. But you insist on derailing your own thread with baseless accusations because in your delusional world, only the arabs have any responsibility for the plight of the Palestinian people.

 

[Jayjay]

1) I had previously identified the organization as the PLO. It's obvious what "terrorists" refer to.

No, it is not. There are plenty of terrorists in that region. Your OP is about why the Palestinians are still in camps. We agree – because the terrorists want them there. We disagree on the extent of who the terrorists are. But you insist on derailing your own thread with baseless accusations because in your delusional world, only the arabs have any responsibility for the plight of the Palestinian people.

You're just being facetious trying to pretend as if it wasn't obvious what Loren was referring to. And the issue wasn't the generic plight of the Palestinian people, but why they are still in camps -- which is a valid question, because for a casual observer it's not obvious why there are refugee camps in PA and Hamas controlled territories. If there were refugee camps with American people in USA, that would be strange too*.

Also, your pretense that the Israeli terrorists kept them in the camps is silly anyway. Why would the Israeli government, that according to you is and always was an enabler and a tool of the terrorists, have a program to get the Palestinians out of the camps in the first place? The fact is that even the most fervent zionists don't really support the camps. At best, they are indifferent where or how the Palestinians live, as long as it's not in Israel. Even today, Israel doesn't contribute to the UNRWA that maintains the camps, and has advocated that other countries stop funding it also.

* For example, native Americans still living in reservations.

 

[laughing dog]

1) I had previously identified the organization as the PLO. It's obvious what "terrorists" refer to.

No, it is not. There are plenty of terrorists in that region. Your OP is about why the Palestinians are still in camps. We agree – because the terrorists want them there. We disagree on the extent of who the terrorists are. But you insist on derailing your own thread with baseless accusations because in your delusional world, only the arabs have any responsibility for the plight of the Palestinian people.

You're just being facetious trying to pretend as if it wasn't obvious what Loren was referring to. And the issue wasn't the generic plight of the Palestinian people, but why they are still in camps -- which is a valid question, because for a casual observer it's not obvious why there are refugee camps in PA and Hamas controlled territories. If there were refugee camps with American people in USA, that would be strange too*.

I was pointing out the extreme bias in LP’s position.

Also, your pretense that the Israeli terrorists kept them in the camps is silly anyway. Why would the Israeli government, that according to you is and always was an enabler and a tool of the terrorists, have a program to get the Palestinians out of the camps in the first place? The fact is that even the most fervent zionists don't really support the camps. At best, they are indifferent where or how the Palestinians live, as long as it's not in Israel. Even today, Israel doesn't contribute to the UNRWA that maintains the camps, and has advocated that other countries stop funding it also.

There is no viable program to end the need for those camps. And failure to fund those camps without a viable alternative is a worse outcome for the residents.

BTW, I have said the Israeli gov’t is and has aleays was an enabler and a tool of the terrorists. The current gov’t is.

 

[Arctish]

I would like to see something authoritative on this build-your-own-home program. So far, all I'm finding are little bits of information like this, which I have been told cannot be trusted because it's from Wikipedia:

In 1971, the Israeli government pursued a large scale resettlement scheme in order to control the refugee population and prevent militant activism. The idea was to move refugees to better housing so camp areas could be redeveloped and improved.[11] The plan was part of 9 relocation schemes within the Gaza Strip, parts of nearby al-Shati camp were bulldozed and a housing project in Sheikh Radwan was initiated.[12][13][14] Initially, refugee migration to Sheikh Radwan was involuntary since Israeli authorities demolished over 2,000 shelters in the camps to widen the roads for "security reasons" and denied permits for the residents to rebuild their houses.[15] About 8,000 refugees moved into the housing projects of Sheikh Radwan.[16] The United Nations Relief and Works Agency and the Palestine Liberation Organization were vociferous in their opposition to the Israeli action, saying it was forced resettlement. After the start of the First Intifada, Sheikh Radwan was the most consistently active areas in Gaza.[13] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sheikh_Radwan

Forced resettlement of refugees doesn't sound nearly as nice as build-your-own-home. But even that program doesn't sound all that great. According to the first article the refugees would have to scrape up the money to build their homes. The article didn't mention housing grants, or no-interest loans, or compensation for the homes that were taken from them, both inside Israel and the recently demolished ones in Gaza. It didn't say who was going to buy the land from the current landowners so refugees could move onto it. And I have yet to see an Israeli plan for which parts of the region would be absolutely off limits to annexation at some future date. Honestly, I doubt any such plan existed in the 1970s, so there were no guarantees those resettled refugees would be able to keep the homes they built.

The whole thing sounds sketchy.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

1) I had previously identified the organization as the PLO. It's obvious what "terrorists" refer to.

No, it is not. There are plenty of terrorists in that region. Your OP is about why the Palestinians are still in camps. We agree – because the terrorists want them there. We disagree on the extent of who the terrorists are. But you insist on derailing your own thread with baseless accusations because in your delusional world, only the arabs have any responsibility for the plight of the Palestinian people.

The article said "PLO". Quit trying to derail.

 

[laughing dog]

1) I had previously identified the organization as the PLO. It's obvious what "terrorists" refer to.

No, it is not. There are plenty of terrorists in that region. Your OP is about why the Palestinians are still in camps. We agree – because the terrorists want them there. We disagree on the extent of who the terrorists are. But you insist on derailing your own thread with baseless accusations because in your delusional world, only the arabs have any responsibility for the plight of the Palestinian people.

The article said "PLO".

So what. They are not the only terrorists in the region who have worked to keep the Palestinians in camps.

Quit trying to derail.

The only one derailing your bigoted thread is you with your false accusation.

You are derailing your own thread with your stupid and false accusation of derailing.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

The article said "PLO".

So what. They are not the only terrorists in the region who have worked to keep the Palestinians in camps.

Quit trying to derail.

The only one derailing your bigoted thread is you with your false accusation.

You are derailing your own thread with your stupid and false accusation of derailing.

I'm trying to get the discussion back to where it was before you brought up supposed Israeli terrorists rather than address the point. How about addressing this post: https://talkfreethought.org/showthr...-refugee-camps&p=830550&viewfull=1#post830550

 

[laughing dog]

So what. They are not the only terrorists in the region who have worked to keep the Palestinians in camps.
The only one derailing your bigoted thread is you with your false accusation.

You are derailing your own thread with your stupid and false accusation of derailing.

I'm trying to get the discussion back to where it was before you brought up supposed Israeli terrorists rather than address the point. How about addressing this post: https://talkfreethought.org/showthr...-refugee-camps&p=830550&viewfull=1#post830550

Your point about terrorists was one-sided. I pointed that out. No one is stopping you from continuing your Perhaps if you stopped your false accusations of derailing, you might be able to continue your predictable one sided propaganda of blaming the Arabs/Palestinians and absolving the gov't of Israel of any responsibility for the state of affairs.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

So what. They are not the only terrorists in the region who have worked to keep the Palestinians in camps.
The only one derailing your bigoted thread is you with your false accusation.

You are derailing your own thread with your stupid and false accusation of derailing.

I'm trying to get the discussion back to where it was before you brought up supposed Israeli terrorists rather than address the point. How about addressing this post: https://talkfreethought.org/showthr...-refugee-camps&p=830550&viewfull=1#post830550

Your point about terrorists was one-sided. I pointed that out. No one is stopping you from continuing your Perhaps if you stopped your false accusations of derailing, you might be able to continue your predictable one sided propaganda of blaming the Arabs/Palestinians and absolving the gov't of Israel of any responsibility for the state of affairs.

Why can't you address the post instead of persisting with your derail? The original specifically said "PLO", you don't get to pretend it's Israeli terrorists.