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Why Atheists Get the Idea of "Faith" Wrong
- Thread starter Unknown Soldier
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DBT
Contributor
Look everybody! DBT is saying here that large paper pictures on walls have addressed my premise. That is crazy--pictures cannot respond to what I say.
You are clutching at straws in desperation;
poster noun [C] (PERSON)
internet & telecoms
someone who publishes something such as a message or picture on a website or using social media: There was a lively debate on the message boards, with many posters arguing against the plan.
poster
1. a large printed picture, photograph, or notice that you stick or pin to a…
Try to do better.
So how does it feel to have your word twisted? The moral of the story is: Never do unto others what you don't want done to yourself because you might get a dose of your own medicine.Look everybody! DBT is saying here that large paper pictures on walls have addressed my premise. That is crazy--pictures cannot respond to what I say.
You are clutching at straws in desperation;
poster noun [C] (PERSON)
internet & telecoms
someone who publishes something such as a message or picture on a website or using social media: There was a lively debate on the message boards, with many posters arguing against the plan.
poster
1. a large printed picture, photograph, or notice that you stick or pin to a…dictionary.cambridge.org
Try to do better.
DBT
Contributor
So how does it feel to have your word twisted? The moral of the story is: Never do unto others what you don't want done to yourself because you might get a dose of your own medicine.Look everybody! DBT is saying here that large paper pictures on walls have addressed my premise. That is crazy--pictures cannot respond to what I say.
You are clutching at straws in desperation;
poster noun [C] (PERSON)
internet & telecoms
someone who publishes something such as a message or picture on a website or using social media: There was a lively debate on the message boards, with many posters arguing against the plan.
poster
1. a large printed picture, photograph, or notice that you stick or pin to a…
Try to do better.
Your example falls flat because it suggests that you don't understand the meaning of a word may be defined in the context in which it is used.
That with religious belief, theology, teachings not being supported by evidence, faith in religion is defined as belief held without the support of evidence.
DBT
Contributor
That's a fine example of your own situation. Surely you are aware that people sometimes believe things that are not supported by evidence, and this is called "faith?"
Trying to be comprehensive about what sorts of "it's not blind faith" claims might be made...
"I have reasons for my beliefs". Well no shit. Everyone has reasons for their beliefs. It's a trite assertion and counts for nothing.
"I have reasoned my way to my beliefs, I did not accept them blindly". Then show the reasons and skip asserting that they happened.
"It's not blind faith if I have applied reason so you atheists need to stop saying that my beliefs are blind faith".
This third one is reasonable but ONLY when it's from a theist who has shown his reasons. The individual theist's reasons come first, then the objection "stop saying it's blind faith" comes after he's done so -- if the atheists are still saying it's "blind faith" at a theist who has shown that it is not.
Nobody else gets to make this argument on behalf of theists because then we're dealing with the nuttiness of the first 2 examples -- mere assertions.
"I have reasons for my beliefs". Well no shit. Everyone has reasons for their beliefs. It's a trite assertion and counts for nothing.
"I have reasoned my way to my beliefs, I did not accept them blindly". Then show the reasons and skip asserting that they happened.
"It's not blind faith if I have applied reason so you atheists need to stop saying that my beliefs are blind faith".
This third one is reasonable but ONLY when it's from a theist who has shown his reasons. The individual theist's reasons come first, then the objection "stop saying it's blind faith" comes after he's done so -- if the atheists are still saying it's "blind faith" at a theist who has shown that it is not.
Nobody else gets to make this argument on behalf of theists because then we're dealing with the nuttiness of the first 2 examples -- mere assertions.
steve_bank
Diabetic retinopathy and poor eyesight. Typos ...
If you look up gay in a dictionary it will have multiple contextual meanings.
Gay as happy and carefree is an outdated term . It was a common term in the 30s 50s to mean a carefree person.
If today somebody tells me he or she is gay I will think it means sexuality.
Which goes to the point on defining faith.
It is contextual and religious faith implies a belief in that wchich has no objective evidence..
You posted a link or made a comment about Christians having evidence and faith being evidence based, is that what you men by atheists don't get religious faith right?. That is one of the min theist arguments. And on that we can go to the objective vs subjective thread I linked to.
Christians use the dame logical and reasoning faculties as science does. The difference is the nature of the alleged evidence and the premises.
The idea that science and religion are equivalent faith based is beyond silly.
A Christian argument on the forum from the past.
Science is faith based, scientists have a faith that their conclusions are valid. Cosmology and the BB is given as an example. Or no one has ever seen an electron or photon, so their existence is faith based.
Christians have faith god created the universe and they logically deduce it from observation.
Therefore creationism and cosmology/science are equally valid.
Do you think religious and scientific logic are equally valid in drawing conclusions about reality?
DrZoidberg
Contributor
Straight pants and bell bottom pants are also a product of evolution. And so is wearing skirts/kilts. But just saying evolution doesn't explain why people are wearing that particular design. All work fine for the usage they're intended for
To connect with the OP. Almost all religions ever devised don't care about belief/faith. The only religions ever devised that put a premium on believing the right thing is Christianity and Islam. Judaism doesn't btw. That's why equating religion with "faith" is a mistake IMHO. To all religion the important thing is the rituals. They bind together the community. Pagans would continually work on and improve their myths. They never stopped and it was never discouraged. Well.. they stopped when paganism died out. You can be an athiest and a Hindu at the same time (Advaita). There's no conflict or problem with it. Same deal with Buddhism.
Christianities insistance on faith is weird. Even bizarre.
I think religion is more than JUST ritual. But ritual is the main thing. Absolutely. I agree.
DrZoidberg
Contributor
Dude, you're the one misrepresenting what Christian theology says about faith. We keep giving you examples and explaining it. There is, to my knowledge, no Christian denomination that uses your definition of faith. All the way from Catholic, to Orthodox, to Protestant and Evangelical Christianity they all stress that faith is belief in spite of evidence. It's pretty core to Christian faith. If it's important to you that faith is based on evidence then you are better off picking another religion. Christianity isn't going to change. It's been like this now for 2000+ years.
Here's what the JWs say about faith:
From Wikipedia on "Faith" we have:
So what you are claiming about religious faith is flat-out false. Now, I don't believe for one minute that this evidence will change the minds of any of the atheists here who insist that faith is bereft of reason and evidence. Their kind of faith is blind being without reason and evidence.
DBT
Contributor
Again, given multiple meanings, it is the context in which a word is used that defines the meaning of the word in that instance.
Religions are faith based because their beliefs and teachings are not based on evidence, therefore it is that definition that is applicable in that instance.
Religions are faith based because their beliefs and teachings are not based on evidence, therefore it is that definition that is applicable in that instance.
DBT
Contributor
You proved me right when you were equivocating the word 'poster' as a wall hanging when the context I used clearly referred to someone who posts comments on an internet forum. Where the word 'poster' is used in both instances, yet the meaning of the word is entirely different.
Plus Hebrews 11:1, which tells us that faith is its own assurance of truth.
You are playing games.
ideologyhunter
Contributor
This dog has been chasing its tail for 5 weeks.
Suppose you give us examples of evidence-based religious findings/beliefs/doctrines that are not susceptible to the pitfalls of circular reasoning, in-house consistency that doesn't match secular knowledge, special pleading, insistence on miraculous events and personages that can't be demonstrated...all the features of theology that are meant to baffle rational analysis.
Suppose you give us examples of evidence-based religious findings/beliefs/doctrines that are not susceptible to the pitfalls of circular reasoning, in-house consistency that doesn't match secular knowledge, special pleading, insistence on miraculous events and personages that can't be demonstrated...all the features of theology that are meant to baffle rational analysis.
southernhybrid
Contributor
I have faith that the primary characters who are posting in this thread will never come to an agreement, and I didn't even have to read that much of the thread to come to that conclusion. 
The evidence is overwhelming.
The evidence is overwhelming.
Here's the text of the OP:
If you read what I posted carefully, nowhere do I claim that religious faith is necessarily free of fallacies. So how are you getting that I said religious faith is not susceptible to fallacies? Like almost everybody else here, you are reading that into what I'm saying.
Can you understand that it's possible to misrepresent what a person says?I have faith that the primary characters who are posting in this thread will never come to an agreement, and I didn't even have to read that much of the thread to come to that conclusion.
steve_bank
Diabetic retinopathy and poor eyesight. Typos ...
Grasping at straws in the midst of a howling wind.
I am a poet and don't know it.
"A howling wind"? that's an apt description of most of the responses on this thread.
Yes. Thanks for that description.