Why do people believe in hell?

[steve_bank]

So much of the atheist counter-apologetics and polemics against 'hell' seem to be a form of virtue signaling sympathy for the inhabitants of such a place. But does that same sympathy extend to the inhabitants of terrestrial (secular) prisons who, arguably got themselves into their predicament all by themselves and deserve to be there?

Not so much counter arguments. Theist make an affirmative declaration with proofs hat do not pass muster in ay fashion.

Atheists do not need apologetics. We reject theism without reservation or need for justification. It is the theist Christian who is intent on proofing faith and convincing others, apologetics.

You are using a common theist tactic, trying to paint atheists as the same as theists with an ideology to prove. We are not.

 

[excreationist]

[MENTION=170]DBT[/MENTION]:

You continue to refuse to read the https://www.jewishnotgreek.com/ site or even read short quotes from it.

Your excuse is:

I am aware of the attempts that have been made to sanitize bible verses pertaining to hell and damnation

If ALL of these attempts are so flawed then why were all three Christian reviews of this book 5 stars? I guess you won't click the link - but I'll quote it just in case you have the time or patience to read these quotes...

https://www.koorong.com/product/the...rd-edition-edward-william-fudge_9781608999309

Well Researched By Tanwin, Nov 17 2016

In the last 2 months I have been on a doctrinal journey (I still am). You see, I stumbled upon the doctrine of Annihilationism (or what I prefer Conditional Mortality). Well, I've heard Annihilationism before and my knee-jerk reaction was to label it as a heresy and did not study further. Until recently. So I was intrigued by the arguments people have for Annihilationism so I was looking for a good source to study. Apparently there is not many books written on the subject. However I stumbled upon this one. In short, this is a "go to" book if you want to know more about Annihilationism. Fudge covers both biblical and historical aspects of the argument. He also shows how the traditional view of hell came about and how it was excepted as orthodoxy. This is just one excellent book on Annihilationism. It has everything you need to learn about the doctrine. The book is heavily reseached and well written. As for my journey, I'm still on that road. I haven't made any decision yet. But what I can do is quote scholar Ben Witherington III about Annihilationism that mirrors my current state. He said that Annihilationism is "exegetically defensible" and "theologically coherent". So this is worthy of a serious consideration. The journey continues... 5 out of 5

Extremely Helpful Book on Understanding God's Final Judgement
By Ben, Oct 24 2016

This book is essential reading when it comes to what the Bible teaches about Hell - whether one agrees with Fudge's conclusions or not. The essential question of the book is, 'What will Hell be like?' Fudge argues that while most Christians assume (based on tradition and some verses in the Bible) that the Bible teaches 'eternal conscious torment', the Bible itself actually seems to indicate that those who go to Hell are eventually annihilated and cease to exist. As Jesus says, "fear the One who can DESTROY both soul and body in Hell" (Matthew 10:28). Fudge is extremely careful to lay out in the early chapters that the Bible alone (rather than tradition) has to be our final authority, and he puts this into practice in the rest of the book, systematically working through what the Bible actually teaches. He also has some great chapters looking at how Hell has been understood throughout history. This book is not exactly light reading, but if you're willing to take the time, this book pays great dividends. Highly recommended.

Essential reading
By David, Oct 12 2012

Like most Christians I suppose, I had always held to the traditional view on Hell. I dogmatically taught on the subject and have even written tracts that spoke of burning in Hell for all eternity. It wasn't until I had to write a paper on the subject that I took the time to research it that I came across this book. Fudge very systematically explains the "conditional mortality" view calmly and with great diligence. Beginning with the Hellistic concept of a naturally immortal soul and the sense of permanence implied in the word "eternal" (as opposed to on-going), Fudge takes his readers through the strengths and weaknesses of annihilationism. Every student, pastor, and evangelist really would be doing themselves a favour by reading The Fire That Consumes. It really has changed the way I view the afterlife.

Note these are people who actually read a lot on the topic. You have not (I doubt you've read a hundred pages on the topic) so they would be knowledgeable on this topic.

 

[DBT]

Generally its their view. Like I sort of said othordox Jews can change their minds...usually happens when they discover the NT. Orthodox Jews BTW is a Rabbinic sect of Judaism, (which was not the only Judaic Sect that understood and interpreted scripture).

People change their minds for many and varied reasons, however, the reasons why orthodox Judaism reject Jesus as the prophesied Messiah remain valid, ie, the prophesy is not fulfilled in spite of the attempts of the gospel writers to make it so. The criteria and evidence is there to see.

Well the gospel writers were Jews still.... while following Christ (a Jew) and they knew the OT was compatible because of the prophesies they see for Christ being the Messiah, although as you mentioned, rejected by some sects. The Priestly class disagreed with the Rabbinic class and the Essenes also Jews believed something diffrent to both, a little similar to Christianity in regards to God but quite different to other sects. Christians a name eventually adopted (formerly known as SAINTS) is merely an EXTENSION to the OT by a Jewish sect! It's a Pharisees V Saints (both Judaic) viewpoints of the OT IOW's.

They were Jews following a Jew, but the question is, did this Jesus the Jew meet the criteria of the prophesied Messiah. That's the issue. Orthodox Judaism says no, for the given reasons, he did not.

 

[DBT]

[MENTION=170]DBT[/MENTION]:

You continue to refuse to read the https://www.jewishnotgreek.com/ site or even read short quotes from it.

Your excuse is:

I am aware of the attempts that have been made to sanitize bible verses pertaining to hell and damnation

If ALL of these attempts are so flawed then why were all three Christian reviews of this book 5 stars? I guess you won't click the link - but I'll quote it just in case you have the time or patience to read these quotes...

https://www.koorong.com/product/the...rd-edition-edward-william-fudge_9781608999309

Well Researched By Tanwin, Nov 17 2016

In the last 2 months I have been on a doctrinal journey (I still am). You see, I stumbled upon the doctrine of Annihilationism (or what I prefer Conditional Mortality). Well, I've heard Annihilationism before and my knee-jerk reaction was to label it as a heresy and did not study further. Until recently. So I was intrigued by the arguments people have for Annihilationism so I was looking for a good source to study. Apparently there is not many books written on the subject. However I stumbled upon this one. In short, this is a "go to" book if you want to know more about Annihilationism. Fudge covers both biblical and historical aspects of the argument. He also shows how the traditional view of hell came about and how it was excepted as orthodoxy. This is just one excellent book on Annihilationism. It has everything you need to learn about the doctrine. The book is heavily reseached and well written. As for my journey, I'm still on that road. I haven't made any decision yet. But what I can do is quote scholar Ben Witherington III about Annihilationism that mirrors my current state. He said that Annihilationism is "exegetically defensible" and "theologically coherent". So this is worthy of a serious consideration. The journey continues... 5 out of 5

Extremely Helpful Book on Understanding God's Final Judgement
By Ben, Oct 24 2016

This book is essential reading when it comes to what the Bible teaches about Hell - whether one agrees with Fudge's conclusions or not. The essential question of the book is, 'What will Hell be like?' Fudge argues that while most Christians assume (based on tradition and some verses in the Bible) that the Bible teaches 'eternal conscious torment', the Bible itself actually seems to indicate that those who go to Hell are eventually annihilated and cease to exist. As Jesus says, "fear the One who can DESTROY both soul and body in Hell" (Matthew 10:28). Fudge is extremely careful to lay out in the early chapters that the Bible alone (rather than tradition) has to be our final authority, and he puts this into practice in the rest of the book, systematically working through what the Bible actually teaches. He also has some great chapters looking at how Hell has been understood throughout history. This book is not exactly light reading, but if you're willing to take the time, this book pays great dividends. Highly recommended.

Essential reading
By David, Oct 12 2012

Like most Christians I suppose, I had always held to the traditional view on Hell. I dogmatically taught on the subject and have even written tracts that spoke of burning in Hell for all eternity. It wasn't until I had to write a paper on the subject that I took the time to research it that I came across this book. Fudge very systematically explains the "conditional mortality" view calmly and with great diligence. Beginning with the Hellistic concept of a naturally immortal soul and the sense of permanence implied in the word "eternal" (as opposed to on-going), Fudge takes his readers through the strengths and weaknesses of annihilationism. Every student, pastor, and evangelist really would be doing themselves a favour by reading The Fire That Consumes. It really has changed the way I view the afterlife.

Note these are people who actually read a lot on the topic. You have not (I doubt you've read a hundred pages on the topic) so they would be knowledgeable on this topic.

I am asking you a question.

The question was: what do you think the quoted verses say and mean?

I did not ask you to supply me with reading material. Five stars can mean that there are people who enjoy the book or feel the book provides explanations and answers....but what they feel or believe ain't necessarily so.

So, I'd like you to answer in your own words. What do you think the verses say?

Can you do that or not?

 

[Learner]

Well the gospel writers were Jews still.... while following Christ (a Jew) and they knew the OT was compatible because of the prophesies they see for Christ being the Messiah, although as you mentioned, rejected by some sects. The Priestly class disagreed with the Rabbinic class and the Essenes also Jews believed something diffrent to both, a little similar to Christianity in regards to God but quite different to other sects. Christians a name eventually adopted (formerly known as SAINTS) is merely an EXTENSION to the OT by a Jewish sect! It's a Pharisees V Saints (both Judaic) viewpoints of the OT IOW's.

They were Jews following a Jew, but the question is, did this Jesus the Jew meet the criteria of the prophesied Messiah. That's the issue. Orthodox Judaism says no, for the given reasons, he did not.

Yes of course... a no according to othordox Judaism.

 

[excreationist]

.....I am asking you a question.

The question was: what do you think the quoted verses say and mean?

I think they are compatible with conditional immortality - for dozens of reasons.

I did not ask you to supply me with reading material.

Well it explains why I think that.

Five stars can mean that there are people who enjoy the book or feel the book provides explanations and answers....but what they feel or believe ain't necessarily so.

So 3 out of 3 gave it 5 stars. You assume you're right about your position and therefore they are deluded or whatever. And it looks like you didn't have the time and patience to actually read the quotes of the 5 star reviews. I had hoped you could have made an exception.

So, I'd like you to answer in your own words. What do you think the verses say?

Can you do that or not?

Can you read those quotes or that website or not?

 

[DBT]

Well the gospel writers were Jews still.... while following Christ (a Jew) and they knew the OT was compatible because of the prophesies they see for Christ being the Messiah, although as you mentioned, rejected by some sects. The Priestly class disagreed with the Rabbinic class and the Essenes also Jews believed something diffrent to both, a little similar to Christianity in regards to God but quite different to other sects. Christians a name eventually adopted (formerly known as SAINTS) is merely an EXTENSION to the OT by a Jewish sect! It's a Pharisees V Saints (both Judaic) viewpoints of the OT IOW's.

They were Jews following a Jew, but the question is, did this Jesus the Jew meet the criteria of the prophesied Messiah. That's the issue. Orthodox Judaism says no, for the given reasons, he did not.

Yes of course...according to othordox Judaism.

Who give a list of reasons why Jesus does not meet the criteria of prophesy as it is described. The same material that Christians tried to incorporate into their own theology, but apparently overlooked some details.

 

[Learner]

Yes of course...according to othordox Judaism.

Who give a list of reasons why Jesus does not meet the criteria of prophesy as it is described. The same material that Christians tried to incorporate into their own theology, but apparently overlooked some details.

Or was it that Jesus rebuked the pharisees/ Sanhedrin for not following to the laws of Moses etc.. e.g. Orthodox Rabbinic Judaism seemingly Pharisaic? As He said: "Traditions of men" i.e Talmudic not Torah.

 

[DBT]

I think they are compatible with conditional immortality - for dozens of reasons.


Well it explains why I think that.

Five stars can mean that there are people who enjoy the book or feel the book provides explanations and answers....but what they feel or believe ain't necessarily so.

So 3 out of 3 gave it 5 stars. You assume you're right about your position and therefore they are deluded or whatever. And it looks like you didn't have the time and patience to actually read the quotes of the 5 star reviews. I had hoped you could have made an exception.

So, I'd like you to answer in your own words. What do you think the verses say?

Can you do that or not?

Can you read those quotes or that website or not?

They have their reasons for rating the material, but that doesn't say a thing about the validity of the arguments in the material.

They are attempts, apologetics, to transform what a set of verses actually say and what they actually mean - something that anyone with even a rudimentary understanding can see and read - into something they do not say and do not mean.

It's a whitewash. It doesn't work. These verses clearly state that a place of eternal torment is prepared for the devil and his followers, including anyone who fails judgment, the 'goats'

A message doesnt come any clearer than that.

And of course, there are verses that contradict this message.

 

[DBT]

Yes of course...according to othordox Judaism.

Who give a list of reasons why Jesus does not meet the criteria of prophesy as it is described. The same material that Christians tried to incorporate into their own theology, but apparently overlooked some details.

Or was it that Jesus rebuked the pharisees/ Sanhedrin for not following to the laws of Moses etc.. e.g. Orthodox Rabbinic Judaism seemingly close to Pharisaic? As He said: "Traditions of men" i.e Talmudic not Torah.

We have nothing from Jesus, what you refer to are the words of anonymous Christian writers. Who no doubt had their own agenda in mind.

 

[excreationist]

[MENTION=170]DBT[/MENTION]:
Yet again there is no evidence you have read any of what I quoted though you still wrote a few sentences about your assumptions.

 

[Lion IRC]

Here you go. Pick a favourite. This is not even close to a complete list:

https://talkfreethought.org/showthread.php?20372-Why-do-people-believe-in-hell/page25

(Post # 248. list was so long I put the link above)

So many...which one do you suggest? Perhaps I or someone can try to defend one of those gods (as "devills" advocate). May have to look up the scripture mind you, if you don't have it. Do you?

That was a huge list !!!
So much religion everywhere. Throughout human history. It's almost as if there might be something true about divinity.
Can you imagine if you were an atheist and had to debunk ALL those religions
So many gods, so little time. They had better get cracking. That's a huge job.

Of course, the atheist will argue that so many competing supernatural claims can't all be true.
...but the corollary of this is that since there are so many claims they can't ALL be false.

 

[steve_bank]

Here you go. Pick a favourite. This is not even close to a complete list:

https://talkfreethought.org/showthread.php?20372-Why-do-people-believe-in-hell/page25

(Post # 248. list was so long I put the link above)

So many...which one do you suggest? Perhaps I or someone can try to defend one of those gods (as "devills" advocate). May have to look up the scripture mind you, if you don't have it. Do you?

That was a huge list !!!
So much religion everywhere. Throughout human history. It's almost as if there might be something true about divinity.
Can you imagine if you were an atheist and had to debunk ALL those religions
So many gods, so little time. They had better get cracking. That's a huge job.

Of course, the atheist will argue that so many competing supernatural claims can't all be true.
...but the corollary of this is that since there are so many claims they can't ALL be false.

Not out to debunk as you probably infer. All regions and mythologies have common threads with different cultural context and metaphors. The racial features of images of Buddha varies with culture in Asia.

Hindu culture has beautiful poetic scripture compared to the rag tag bible.

All religions have outrigger fakery.

Religion fills a need to have a group identity. Understand one religion and you understand all. The Christian faiths can be extremely visioous in asserting they are the one and only true faith. Not always Hindus tend to be tolerant.

 

[Learner]

Here you go. Pick a favourite. This is not even close to a complete list:

https://talkfreethought.org/showthread.php?20372-Why-do-people-believe-in-hell/page25

(Post # 248. list was so long I put the link above)

So many...which one do you suggest? Perhaps I or someone can try to defend one of those gods (as "devills" advocate). May have to look up the scripture mind you, if you don't have it. Do you?

That was a huge list !!!
So much religion everywhere. Throughout human history. It's almost as if there might be something true about divinity.
Can you imagine if you were an atheist and had to debunk ALL those religions
So many gods, so little time. They had better get cracking. That's a huge job.

Of course, the atheist will argue that so many competing supernatural claims can't all be true.
...but the corollary of this is that since there are so many claims they can't ALL be false.

Atheists seem to like huge jobs or was it that Chrsitianity is the biggest job of the lot?

 

[Learner]

Not out to debunk as you probably infer. All regions and mythologies have common threads with different cultural context and metaphors. The racial features of images of Buddha varies with culture in Asia.

Hindu culture has beautiful poetic scripture compared to the rag tag bible.

All religions have outrigger fakery.

Religion fills a need to have a group identity. Understand one religion and you understand all. The Christian faiths can be extremely visioous in asserting they are the one and only true faith. Not always Hindus tend to be tolerant.

I liked my old group identity. Getting out, sometimes getting drunk with the lads trying to look macho in front of the ladies after a few. Although one good thing now is, I don't try or care anymore, holding in my tummy, when an attractive lady walks by hehe. Not even turn my head around! How plain and boring it is... to be a believer.

 

[steve_bank]

Not out to debunk as you probably infer. All regions and mythologies have common threads with different cultural context and metaphors. The racial features of images of Buddha varies with culture in Asia.

Hindu culture has beautiful poetic scripture compared to the rag tag bible.

All religions have outrigger fakery.

Religion fills a need to have a group identity. Understand one religion and you understand all. The Christian faiths can be extremely visioous in asserting they are the one and only true faith. Not always Hindus tend to be tolerant.

I liked my old group identity. Getting out, sometimes getting drunk with the lads trying to look macho in front of the ladies after a few. Although one good thing now is, I don't try or care anymore, holding in my tummy, when an attractive lady walks by hehe. Not even turn my head around! How plain and boring it is... to be a believer.

I never said or would say religion has no positive value. in the 70s there was the Divine Light Mission. A bogus operation in the USA by a family from India run by a teen as the head. I knew a woman who swore it turned her life around.

People swear by Transcended Mediation. The Beatles got hooked into the Maharishi until they realized he was a fraud.

Your religious experience is not unique. It is biophysical.

It is not what you believe, it is how you believe it. In modern terms it is about upping serotonin in your brain and endorphins through attitude. That is what gives that feel good religious state. Attitude affects brain chemistry.

For me I get it from eating right, exercise, and avoiding tobacco, alcohol, and drugs. Grew out of drugs in the 70s and never smoked.. When I pass by alcohol in the store it does not even occur to me to get it. I get that good all over feeling radiating out from my belly. I do not attribute it to a god. Nothing mystical, serotonin and endorphins.

 

[skepticalbip]

I liked my old group identity. Getting out, sometimes getting drunk with the lads trying to look macho in front of the ladies after a few. Although one good thing now is, I don't try or care anymore, holding in my tummy, when an attractive lady walks by hehe. Not even turn my head around! How plain and boring it is... to be a believer.

It sounds the same. Only now you have a different group to hang out with, try to look pious in front of them. Rather than a rush at the sight of an attractive lady, now that rush comes at the sight of some religious icon. The "new life" sounds pretty much the same as the old, no more plain or boring.

 

[abaddon]

That was a huge list !!!
So much religion everywhere. Throughout human history. It's almost as if there might be something true about divinity.
Can you imagine if you were an atheist and had to debunk ALL those religions
So many gods, so little time. They had better get cracking. That's a huge job.

What's the evidence for any of them? Until you say, my job as an atheist is done.

So you pick any one of them. But, for now, you and I both do not believe that god.

Don't say again that you do because you allege they're each a mask of God. If you looked into the details of their religions, you'd be dismayed about the ways they're not Christian. The believers of those other gods might very well have a circle in their hell for you because you believe in Jehovah, so "theism" is not the common denominator that you want it to be.

To help understand the point, there's a cartoon that makes the point visually. You know the one. The elephant-gropers cartoon, wherein a variety of believers hate each other's beliefs because they each interpret reality differently (and all of them get reality wrong).

Of course, the atheist will argue that so many competing supernatural claims can't all be true.
...but the corollary of this is that since there are so many claims they can't ALL be false.

It doesn't matter if they cannot all be true; that's not a point anyone needs to make. And of course they can all easily be false.

 

[DBT]

[MENTION=170]DBT[/MENTION]:
Yet again there is no evidence you have read any of what I quoted though you still wrote a few sentences about your assumptions.

Yet again, not having come down in the last shower I am familiar with the apologetics.....so I am more interested in what you may have to say in your own words, and not just be supplied with reading material with the assumption that this resolves the issue of judgment and punishment or the contradictions it presents.

If you are unwilling or unable to offer your own explanations or arguments, fine.

 

[Learner]

I never said or would say religion has no positive value. in the 70s there was the Divine Light Mission. A bogus operation in the USA by a family from India run by a teen as the head. I knew a woman who swore it turned her life around.

People swear by Transcended Mediation. The Beatles got hooked into the Maharishi until they realized he was a fraud.

Your religious experience is not unique. It is biophysical.

It is not what you believe, it is how you believe it. In modern terms it is about upping serotonin in your brain and endorphins through attitude. That is what gives that feel good religious state. Attitude affects brain chemistry.

Funny enough I sometimes used to sleep lesser than the 8 hours and I suppose .... I lacked the serotonin levels.

For me I get it from eating right, exercise, and avoiding tobacco, alcohol, and drugs. Grew out of drugs in the 70s and never smoked.. When I pass by alcohol in the store it does not even occur to me to get it. I get that good all over feeling radiating out from my belly. I do not attribute it to a god. Nothing mystical, serotonin and endorphins.

I wasn't out of shape in my earlier days but I sort of let go for some time. I am much healthier now and have changed my diet. Thank God.