Why do Zionost Jews have a right to have the state of Israel in its present form?

[Jayjay]

The hypothetical of Israel having to dispense with their own political system and give Palestinians vote already assumes that they would not be in a power to make any demands.

I understand that if you present a hypothetical in which they have to dispense with the parliamentary system, then you get a certain set of possible results. But who here thinks they would have to scrap the multi-party system they already have in order to allow the full participation of non-jews in the government?

I was referring to them having to adopt the Condorcet method to elect the prime minister. Perhaps it was an exaggeration to call that "dispensing their own political system" though. But in any case, that would mean an Arab majority Knesset and as such Arab-party coalition in the government, which could easily exclude Jews altogether.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

First election, the terrorists get power and carry out their long-stated objectives--the extirpation of the Jews.

Through a Condorcet method? Statistically, it is just not possible for terrorists to gain power like that.

The current Palestinian leaders are terrorists. Why would we expect them to vote differently than they have already done?

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So it seems that many people here think that jewish people are somehow different from other people. Inasmuch as jewish people need a homeland just in case they get persecuted?

"Just in case"--something that has happened time and time again and is happening even today is not merely a just in case.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

The result would be ethnic cleansing.

First election, the terrorists get power and carry out their long-stated objectives--the extirpation of the Jews.

Also you just handed a few hundred nuclear weapons to the terrorists, if we are lucky Russia blows them off the map before the terrorists can use those bombs.

Because Jews are stupid, right Loren? They wouldn't even think of demanding that political power be shared and retaining control of the military until a stable secular state had been established. And it would never occur to them to sabotage and/or destroy their nuclear arsenal should it became apparent that terrorists were about to gain control of them.

It's pretty sad that our getting lucky means Russia blows Israel off the map, but I guess it's better than letting stupid people be careless with nukes.

A minority can't enforce demands on the majority other than by military force.

And there would not be a stable secular state, there would be another Islamist hellhole.

And I'm not talking about careless, but deliberate terrorist use by the government you want to see imposed in Israel.

How many American cities do you want to see destroyed on the altar of your hatred of the Jews?

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The hypothetical of Israel having to dispense with their own political system and give Palestinians vote already assumes that they would not be in a power to make any demands.

I understand that if you present a hypothetical in which they have to dispense with the parliamentary system, then you get a certain set of possible results. But who here thinks they would have to scrap the multi-party system they already have in order to allow the full participation of non-jews in the government?

We aren't talking about a hypothetical where they scrap their system, but merely a hypothetical of what happens in the next election when the Palestinians get the vote. They vote for Hamas and Fatah.

 

[Will Wiley]

The reason I worded my OP as I did is because we often hear of Israel's "right to exist". But it seems that is just bullshit? I mean that in that it's explained by the fact that..."well they are there now so they have some right"

 

[Will Wiley]

We can all have our opinions on the legality, illegality, immorality or morality of Israel, of Zionism, of how many Iraelis would be killed by ISIS, Hamas, Al Queda or even Taliban, or Iran or Assad. Luckily for Israel our opinions are completely worthless, even UN and NATO and EU opinions are also worthless and ONLY might is right, and Israel at present has the might. Does not change MHO that they, the Israelis and their backers such as the USA, are engaged in theft and state terrorism. Unfortunately that is the only way Israel can survive and protect its citizens.

I call that "Realpolitik".

I have heard Palestinians who want to negotiate. .

All the palestinians I know are passionate but not unreasonable. in fact they are compassionate and understanding.

 

[Will Wiley]

We aren't talking about a hypothetical where they scrap their system, but merely a hypothetical of what happens in the next election when the Palestinians get the vote. They vote for Hamas and Fatah.

How many Palestinians do you know?

 

[Blahface]

The current Palestinian leaders are terrorists. Why would we expect them to vote differently than they have already done?

They don't have the numbers to take over and it is extremely unlikely that they would ever have the numbers. Israel's population is 8.5 million with about 1.5 Muslim; The Palestinian territories is around 4.5 million people with about 4.2 Muslim.

So, it is a rough estimate of around 6.3 million non-Muslims to around 6 million Muslims. Even if every single Muslim voted for a terrorist party, they still wouldn't have the majority. Also, it is extremely unlikely that all Muslims would vote for an extremist party that would wage war. There is a going to be a significant bloc that just wants peace and doesn't want to jeopardize that. If you've got representation, it is so much easier to get your needs met by voting for that instead of voting for war. Even if the Muslims eventually take the majority position, it only takes a small portion of them to keep electing moderates to power under a Condorcet method. In the worst case scenario, it would be Fatah that would gain power and I strongly doubt even that would ever happen.

 

[Will Wiley]

I understand that if you present a hypothetical in which they have to dispense with the parliamentary system, then you get a certain set of possible results. But who here thinks they would have to scrap the multi-party system they already have in order to allow the full participation of non-jews in the government?

I was referring to them having to adopt the Condorcet method to elect the prime minister. Perhaps it was an exaggeration to call that "dispensing their own political system" though. But in any case, that would mean an Arab majority Knesset and as such Arab-party coalition in the government, which could easily exclude Jews altogether.

This all sounds like the mad ravings of John Forbes Nash whilst suffering from paranoid schizophrenia. Just how well is the "they are all out to get us" strategy working?

 

[Deepak]

The current Palestinian leaders are terrorists. Why would we expect them to vote differently than they have already done?

They don't have the numbers to take over and it is extremely unlikely that they would ever have the numbers. Israel's population is 8.5 million with about 1.5 Muslim; The Palestinian territories is around 4.5 million people with about 4.2 Muslim.

So, it is a rough estimate of around 6.3 million non-Muslims to around 6 million Muslims. Even if every single Muslim voted for a terrorist party, they still wouldn't have the majority. Also, it is extremely unlikely that all Muslims would vote for an extremist party that would wage war. There is a going to be a significant bloc that just wants peace and doesn't want to jeopardize that. If you've got representation, it is so much easier to get your needs met by voting for that instead of voting for war. Even if the Muslims eventually take the majority position, it only takes a small portion of them to keep electing moderates to power under a Condorcet method. In the worst case scenario, it would be Fatah that would gain power and I strongly doubt even that would ever happen.

Support for terrorism and support for Hamas is high enough that a single state solution is basically impossible.

The only real scenario that would work is autonomy for Gaza and the West Bank with Jerusalem administered by UN troops, probably for the next 2000 years, with an Israeli or Palestinian military presence in the city forbidden. Gaza and the West Bank would be connected by an underground rail link so that Israel can keep it's borders closed if it so chooses without blocking movement between Palestinian territories.

That said - I'd expect Hamas to block any negotiations to that effect.

 

[untermensche]

What you will find from the supporters of Israeli brutality and decades of torture is nothing but one inane rationalization after another.

There is no connection to the real world in anything they say.

To even consider giving Palestinians the right to live without Israeli brutal interference is according to them "suicide".

It is insanity. And there is no rational argument that can penetrate it.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

I understand that if you present a hypothetical in which they have to dispense with the parliamentary system, then you get a certain set of possible results. But who here thinks they would have to scrap the multi-party system they already have in order to allow the full participation of non-jews in the government?

I was referring to them having to adopt the Condorcet method to elect the prime minister. Perhaps it was an exaggeration to call that "dispensing their own political system" though. But in any case, that would mean an Arab majority Knesset and as such Arab-party coalition in the government, which could easily exclude Jews altogether.

It potentially COULD exclude Jews altogether; you are, however, seriously deluded if you really think it would be "easy" to do so.

Especially when you consider that there is no political party in Israel called "The Jews" and it is unlikely such a thing would come to exist if Israel unified with Palestine. Jewish neighborhoods will still vote for the usual suspects (Likud, Labor, etc) as would Palestinians (Fatah, Hamas, PFLP, etc). The more likely result is an alliance between one or more Jewish and Palestinian political parties (e.g. Labor and Fatah) who can reach enough common ground to form a coalition. Since the hardliners are far less likely to form common ground (no way in hell Hamas is gonna team up with Likud), this gives space for the more liberal Israelis and Palestinians to take control of the Knesset and form a unity government.

The Jihadists would be pissed.
The Zionists would be pissed.
Loren would be pissed.
And everyone else would bake a cake.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

They don't have the numbers to take over and it is extremely unlikely that they would ever have the numbers. Israel's population is 8.5 million with about 1.5 Muslim; The Palestinian territories is around 4.5 million people with about 4.2 Muslim.

So, it is a rough estimate of around 6.3 million non-Muslims to around 6 million Muslims. Even if every single Muslim voted for a terrorist party, they still wouldn't have the majority. Also, it is extremely unlikely that all Muslims would vote for an extremist party that would wage war. There is a going to be a significant bloc that just wants peace and doesn't want to jeopardize that. If you've got representation, it is so much easier to get your needs met by voting for that instead of voting for war. Even if the Muslims eventually take the majority position, it only takes a small portion of them to keep electing moderates to power under a Condorcet method. In the worst case scenario, it would be Fatah that would gain power and I strongly doubt even that would ever happen.

Support for terrorism and support for Hamas is high enough that a single state solution is basically impossible.

The only real scenario that would work is autonomy for Gaza and the West Bank with Jerusalem administered by UN troops, probably for the next 2000 years, with an Israeli or Palestinian military presence in the city forbidden. Gaza and the West Bank would be connected by an underground rail link so that Israel can keep it's borders closed if it so chooses without blocking movement between Palestinian territories.

That said - I'd expect Hamas to block any negotiations to that effect.

Really? Last time I checked that was EXACTLY what Hamas was asking for.

 

[Deepak]

Support for terrorism and support for Hamas is high enough that a single state solution is basically impossible.

The only real scenario that would work is autonomy for Gaza and the West Bank with Jerusalem administered by UN troops, probably for the next 2000 years, with an Israeli or Palestinian military presence in the city forbidden. Gaza and the West Bank would be connected by an underground rail link so that Israel can keep it's borders closed if it so chooses without blocking movement between Palestinian territories.

That said - I'd expect Hamas to block any negotiations to that effect.

Really? Last time I checked that was EXACTLY what Hamas was asking for.

When was the last time you checked?

http://www.maannews.com/Content.aspx?id=560770

Their position seems to change constantly, with their acceptance of such a solution coinciding with their needs to rearm.

Were they not dropping hogtied Fatah members off 15 story buildings for being 'collaborators' I might give them the benefit of the doubt.

Reality being what it is, call me Missouri.

 

[Deepak]

I was referring to them having to adopt the Condorcet method to elect the prime minister. Perhaps it was an exaggeration to call that "dispensing their own political system" though. But in any case, that would mean an Arab majority Knesset and as such Arab-party coalition in the government, which could easily exclude Jews altogether.

It potentially COULD exclude Jews altogether; you are, however, seriously deluded if you really think it would be "easy" to do so.

Especially when you consider that there is no political party in Israel called "The Jews" and it is unlikely such a thing would come to exist if Israel unified with Palestine. Jewish neighborhoods will still vote for the usual suspects (Likud, Labor, etc) as would Palestinians (Fatah, Hamas, PFLP, etc). The more likely result is an alliance between one or more Jewish and Palestinian political parties (e.g. Labor and Fatah) who can reach enough common ground to form a coalition. Since the hardliners are far less likely to form common ground (no way in hell Hamas is gonna team up with Likud), this gives space for the more liberal Israelis and Palestinians to take control of the Knesset and form a unity government.

The Jihadists would be pissed.
The Zionists would be pissed.
Loren would be pissed.
And everyone else would bake a cake.

If such a deal happens you should go celebrate. Spend a year over there and hang out in cafes and nightclubs - you can use the bus system to get around. I'm sure you'll have a blast.

 

[barbos]

I think it is pretty abhorrent to base a country around a religion or ethnicity.

Well, when you are being holocausted because of your religion/ethnicity do you really have a choice?

 

[Bomb#20]

The more likely result is an alliance between one or more Jewish and Palestinian political parties (e.g. Labor and Fatah) who can reach enough common ground to form a coalition.

If a leader of Fatah and a leader of Labor ever made a deal to form a coalition government, the more likely result is an assassination of that Fatah leader by some Arab zealot, or an assassination of that Labor leader by some Jewish zealot, or both.

 

[Bomb#20]

Actually, the Palestinians would probably not kill any more Jews than the Jews regularly kill of their number.

Your ability to do probability calculations correctly has not been entered into evidence.

In my opinion the Zionist Jews have NO RIGHT TO THE STATE OF ISRAEL IN ITS PRESENT FORM.

Eleven words in all caps. Does that make it an argument eleven times better than one with only one word in all caps?

A government that maintains itself by violent means is always illegitimate.

An organization that does not maintain itself by violent means is what's called an "NGO".

 

[4321lynx]

Your ability to do probability calculations correctly has not been entered into evidence.

In my opinion the Zionist Jews have NO RIGHT TO THE STATE OF ISRAEL IN ITS PRESENT FORM.

Eleven words in all caps. Does that make it an argument eleven times better than one with only one word in all caps?

A government that maintains itself by violent means is always illegitimate.

An organization that does not maintain itself by violent means is what's called an "NGO".

Of course they have a right, the right of conquest and might.

It is exactly the same right as the right of the USA to Texas and many other SW States. They were "conquered" by war, revolution, invasion by immigration, the idea of Manifest Destiny -- which was a socio-political "religion", preceded and followed by partial extermination, amounting to genocide, of the aboriginal population. They are being held by the right of might of the USA.
That this was all a long time ago and is accepted as the status quo, makes no difference to the principle of the thing, and neither does the anger towards me for pointing this out to the citizens of the land of the free.

Canada's right to Quebec is on the same principle, and its very right to existence as "Canada" also rests on the successful, if incomplete, genocide of the aboriginals.

Now whether Israel has the lasting might of arms and numbers comparable to that of the USA and Canada is another question altogether.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

The current Palestinian leaders are terrorists. Why would we expect them to vote differently than they have already done?

They don't have the numbers to take over and it is extremely unlikely that they would ever have the numbers. Israel's population is 8.5 million with about 1.5 Muslim; The Palestinian territories is around 4.5 million people with about 4.2 Muslim.

So, it is a rough estimate of around 6.3 million non-Muslims to around 6 million Muslims. Even if every single Muslim voted for a terrorist party, they still wouldn't have the majority. Also, it is extremely unlikely that all Muslims would vote for an extremist party that would wage war. There is a going to be a significant bloc that just wants peace and doesn't want to jeopardize that. If you've got representation, it is so much easier to get your needs met by voting for that instead of voting for war. Even if the Muslims eventually take the majority position, it only takes a small portion of them to keep electing moderates to power under a Condorcet method. In the worst case scenario, it would be Fatah that would gain power and I strongly doubt even that would ever happen.

You're forgetting all the Palestinians in nearby countries. Bring them home and it's a Muslim majority.

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They don't have the numbers to take over and it is extremely unlikely that they would ever have the numbers. Israel's population is 8.5 million with about 1.5 Muslim; The Palestinian territories is around 4.5 million people with about 4.2 Muslim.

So, it is a rough estimate of around 6.3 million non-Muslims to around 6 million Muslims. Even if every single Muslim voted for a terrorist party, they still wouldn't have the majority. Also, it is extremely unlikely that all Muslims would vote for an extremist party that would wage war. There is a going to be a significant bloc that just wants peace and doesn't want to jeopardize that. If you've got representation, it is so much easier to get your needs met by voting for that instead of voting for war. Even if the Muslims eventually take the majority position, it only takes a small portion of them to keep electing moderates to power under a Condorcet method. In the worst case scenario, it would be Fatah that would gain power and I strongly doubt even that would ever happen.

Support for terrorism and support for Hamas is high enough that a single state solution is basically impossible.

The only real scenario that would work is autonomy for Gaza and the West Bank with Jerusalem administered by UN troops, probably for the next 2000 years, with an Israeli or Palestinian military presence in the city forbidden. Gaza and the West Bank would be connected by an underground rail link so that Israel can keep it's borders closed if it so chooses without blocking movement between Palestinian territories.

That said - I'd expect Hamas to block any negotiations to that effect.

Israel wouldn't agree, either--UN troops are a very one-sided wall. They do nothing meaningful about terrorism. We have UN forces in Lebanon now that are willfully blind to Hezbollah's actions.

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What you will find from the supporters of Israeli brutality and decades of torture is nothing but one inane rationalization after another.

There is no connection to the real world in anything they say.

To even consider giving Palestinians the right to live without Israeli brutal interference is according to them "suicide".

It is insanity. And there is no rational argument that can penetrate it.

I note no argument as to why it's not suicide.

Thus I guess you consider the death of the Jews to be a good thing.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

The more likely result is an alliance between one or more Jewish and Palestinian political parties (e.g. Labor and Fatah) who can reach enough common ground to form a coalition.

If a leader of Fatah and a leader of Labor ever made a deal to form a coalition government, the more likely result is an assassination of that Fatah leader by some Arab zealot, or an assassination of that Labor leader by some Jewish zealot, or both.

That is a VERY good point. Hell, they killed Yitzik Rabin just for TALKING to them.