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Why is FAIR TRADE better than FREE TRADE?

Choose between the following:

  • FREE TRADE is better than FAIR TRADE.

    Votes: 3 15.0%
  • FAIR TRADE is better than FREE TRADE.

    Votes: 17 85.0%

  • Total voters
    20
1) Your "evidence" is from long ago, the issue is the current situation.

Not at all. The current situation of stagnating wages and conditions for workers has been described and evidence has been provided.

The power balance between individual workers and management is no less than it ever was, barring protection under the law and hard won improvements still in place. Remove those and see what happens to workers.

Therefore your objection has no merit. You failed to consider the provided information.

2) All it says is bad things happened, it says nothing about the balance of power. You seem to be falling for one of the standard leftist fallacies here--the idea that there always is a good outcome if you look hard enough.

Note that what we actually see is the balance of power shifts based on supply and demand. The "best" thing for workers that has ever happened was the Black Death. It killed off a lot of workers, thus making the survivors more valuable and raising working conditions substantially.

Yes, early factory workers had it bad--but there has to be some reason they left the farm for the factories. The situation on the farm must have been worse.

Bad things happened for a set of reasons. Bad things are still happening, stagnating pay and deteriorating conditions for workers while the very rich get ever richer, and this is happening for a set of reasons. Reasons that have been described over and over, but ignored.
 
"Strikes are extortion" is faith-based nonsense.

Still waiting for you to back up your claim that "disrupting" business is illegal with a link to a federal, state or local law. So far, nothing but crickets from you on that.
S

I've presented evidence of how extortion is defined. Nobody has even attempted to rebut it.
There is no need to refute a definition. You have failed to show with actual reality-driven evidence that it is applicable. Hence, your "strikes are extortion" is faith-based nonsense.

You claimed that "disrupting" a business was a crime, but you still have yet to produce a single link to a federal, state or local law to substantiate your claim. And you have some days to do so. Your lack of evidence for your claim indicates it is faith-based.
 
Here's another example of exploitation of vulnerable workers and the power imbalance between workers and employers;

Quote:
''Potential increased worker exploitation due to the coronavirus pandemic has been categorised as modern slavery, prompting further calls for better protection for vulnerable workers.

In South Australia's Riverland region some workers have allegedly earned as little as $8 to $10 an hour picking fruit in recent months, according to Flinders University associate professor of law Marinella Marmo.

Dr Marmo released a report into slavery and slavery-like practices in South Australia in late 2019, and found one in three workers were not legitimately employed on some Riverland properties.

The report also detailed cases of international workers expected to "perform sexual favours" to receive more work hours, having passports confiscated, and workers feeling they were not free to leave.

Dr Marmo said she was worried more cases of worker exploitation were occurring now, as the balance of power between employer and employee had widened during the pandemic.''
 
There's good reason to believe that more trade -> lower production cost -> lower prices

(all else being equal).


Nations can and must be able to choose which other nations that they trade with and the conditions of that trade.

Of course they do that. In some cases a nation chose to trade in slaves, or do slave raids, packing their captives off to the slave market.

But what they should do is leave everyone free to make their own choices, including to buy or sell, without dictating choices to anyone who's not doing something criminal. What every nation's government should do is step aside and ALLOW trade with all other nations, neither mandating the trade nor interfering with it, prescribing only some basic rules to prevent criminal acts, and without imposing separate rules or trade barriers against certain target nations they see as rivals.

They should not impose BOYCOTTS or EMBARGOS or SANCTIONS onto certain other countries or suppress trade with them out of an instinct to promote their political agenda or to inflict punishment onto villains or wage a crusade against an evil empire or tin-pot dictator or other mischief-maker they think has to be curtailed -- whatever the petty feud is with this or that political competitor, suppressing peaceful trade going on in the neighborhood is not a solution to anything, but only makes everyone worse off, on all sides of whatever dispute it may be. Some crusading against evil empires might be legitimate, but not suppressing trade, because that trade is a benefit rather than something evil, as long as it's non-criminal, and should be left alone to do its good regardless of this or that unrelated conflict happening in the region.

They should not "choose which other nations that they trade with" if this means choosing some nations to NOT trade with by EXCLUDING them and prohibiting someone from trading with them. Any individual buyer/seller should be FREE TO NOT TRADE with anyone they choose, but not be dictated to by someone else deciding "which other nations they trade with" by dividing populations into categories and claiming jurisdiction over this or that group and dictating which category may trade with which -- even though they claim to be sovereign rulers of some kind having authority over someone -- this does not entitle them to dictate who may trade with whom, despite their claim to such authority.

You cannot claim that it's just the way it is -- by that rationale any fascist dictatorship may torture and exterminate anyone they wish, because that's "just the way it is" in many cases.

No one can give any legitimate reason why a government should impose curtailment of trade if those buyers and sellers are doing nothing criminal. Just because such things happen does not mean it should happen. Just as slavery should not have happened even though it was a fact of life which happened and was the norm 1000+ years ago. Even so, it should not have happened, just as suppression of non-criminal trade should never have happened.


This is the way that it has always been.

No, there's no such thing as "the way it has always been" -- i.e., there's no one "way" that it has always been. And much of what was or has been should NOT have been. So saying "it has always been" doesn't mean it should have been, anymore than slavery should have been even though it had "always been" up until a few centuries ago. It should never have been and was not necessary, and it should not have been practiced and could have been avoided. It's the free market today, and free trade, which has mostly replaced slavery. Without the basic idea of free choice (free trade), there was nothing to put an end to slavery.

It's normal to have tariffs, as just one more kind of tax -- and taxation in some form is necessary -- but this tax has to be low, to not discourage foreign competition, and should be applied to ALL the players (all importers) equally, regardless what they produce or buy, or their nationality or any other category, and regardless of any cultural differences. It's up to the individual buyers and sellers to make any judgments about who they're buying from or selling to. There is nothing "fair" about imposing conditions onto them to dictate who they should buy from or sell to, or what prices they should charge or pay.

No net benefit is gained for society, for the nation or for any other worthy cause, by dictating to individual buyers and sellers what prices they should charge or pay for anything, or dictating who they should buy from or sell to. So if the imports are to be taxed, this should just be a universal across-the-board tax on everything -- all imports -- with no distinction of one country or industry or company from another.

Any rules have to be only to protect everyone from crime, and must apply equally to all players without targeting anyone or any one nation to be treated differently than any other. Nor should the rules aim at imposing anyone's morality onto anyone else, dictating to another nation what its internal practices should be, such as its human rights practices or its cultural or ideological beliefs or traditions, or its political philosophy. Rather, the individual buyers and sellers should decide for themselves whether to trade with someone of an alien culture, without such choices being dictated to them.

There is no legitimate need to restrict foreign imports or immigrant labor in order to protect the domestic wage level. No one can give any legitimate reason for such restriction. Whenever this is done the net effect of it is to harm everyone, with no net benefit to anyone (other than a short-term instant-gratification benefit to certain selfish interest groups to the detriment of everyone else).

And no rules should presume to impose onto buyers/sellers the "correct" prices for anything bought and sold, including for labor. No legitimate purpose is served by anyone ever dictating to another what price they should pay as a buyer, or what price they should charge as a seller. No one has ever laid out a rationale for this based on anything other than their own personal selfish interest, or their power-lust in service to some particular narrow interest group, to the detriment of everyone else.


This is what I believe that is referred to as "fair trade" in the OP, that is, what has been trade policy forever.

There's no such thing as "what has been trade policy forever." There are many trade policies, going back "forever" -- the best ones were those which allowed the maximum trade to take place, with minimum barriers, such as described above.

The term "fair trade" almost always means imposing higher wages, artificially, above the supply-and-demand level which would be paid if it's left only to the individual buyers and sellers to set the prices (for labor and anything else). This artificial propping-up of the wage level serves no legitimate purpose and only causes a net increase in total suffering, rather than a net benefit, by suppressing trade between buyers and sellers who would be better off if left free to make all the decisions themselves about wages or any other prices to be paid.


Lumpenproletariat is missing a couple of steps in his OP. He asks us to accept that "free trade" is the most desirable trade policy offering as the only evidence to support this assertion being that it lowers the prices of some consumer goods.

There's more benefit than lower prices, including even some access to very high-priced luxury goods which otherwise wouldn't be available. So there are even some higher prices as a result, in cases where consumers want those luxury items.

Free trade simply means more individual choice overall, or the opposite of slavery where people are denied free choice and instead have choices dictated to them by others acting selfishly, or dictated to them by the state acting paternally by imposing its dogmatic theories about what's good for people instead of letting them choose for themselves.


That to stop our free trade policies would roll back this tremendous benefit [lower prices] to the US economy.

So in order to fill in this gap, below I present the consumer price index for the post-World War II years to August 1 of this year, 2020. I need Lumpenproletariat or another free trade enthusiast to point to the period on this graph where we can see the impact on the economy that the lower prices that justify our free trade policies are. I can't see it.

Anyone?

There are many reasons not to interpret the above graph as contradicting the principle that more trade (and thus increased competition) leads to lower cost and thus lower prices (than would have been otherwise). If there were very few reasons, then the following Text Wall would be much shorter.

The facts about inflation over the last 50 years, in the data, the charts, and graphs, are totally consistent with the theory that increased global trade helps to keep down the rising prices, reducing the inflation rate. The best you can ever do with empirical data is show that good theory is consistent with the empirical evidence, but seldom that the theory is PROVED by the evidence. There are always too many variables, such as other factors which can impact prices.

The graph doesn't show the inflation trend as well as the following chart showing the inflation rates from the 1970s to the present. https://www.usinflationcalculator.com/inflation/historical-inflation-rates/ These numbers clearly confirm that inflation was much higher in the period before the recent trade expansion, and that a significant reduction in inflation has occurred from the time after the Reagan-era "free trade" deals, such as NAFTA etc., which expanded global trade.

The above graph admittedly doesn't seem to show this very well -- maybe slightly, but the steepness of the curve for the 70s looks about the same as the steepness for the 90s and later, which doesn't make any sense. It seems to show an inflation rate after 2000 which is hardly any different than that of the 1970s. It almost seems to say the inflation rate did not change any after the 1970s and later. As if the extreme inflation of the 1970s is no different than the inflation of the 90s and after 2000, which is just not so, as the chart clearly shows.

By contrast, the inflation in the 1950s and 60s is more difficult describe, as it fluctuated from one year to the next, and it was also very low most years (even negative around 1950).


The FED artificially propped up inflation after 2000.

One factor you overlook, if you claim the recent inflation was not unusually low, is the fact that through most of this period, after 2000, the Fed has actually been trying to artificially PUSH UP the inflation rate, trying one trick after another to push it above 2%, or at least prevent it from dropping below the target 2% level. This appears to be a recent policy of the Fed and not something it did in the 1950s and 60s when the inflation rate was usually low. So it's likely that the recent inflation rates persistently 1-2% are partly a result of these artificial efforts of the Fed to push UP the inflation rate, which it did not do in the 1950s. I.e., our recent rate would have been even LOWER without these efforts of the Fed.

So our recent low inflation rate is somewhat abnormal and persistent despite these efforts of the Fed to push it up artificially, which have failed to maintain it at 2% every year, but have probably pushed it up higher than it would have been. So the non-artificial inflation rate would likely have been more like 1% or lower had it not been for the Fed's effort to push it up.

If this is the case, then our recent low inflation rate is very significant, not normal, and it has remained low over many years now, in contrast to the 1970s and early 80s (before most of the expanded China trade). And even in the 50s and 60s the natural inflation rate, not artificially propped up by the Fed, was probably higher than our modern inflation rate would have been had the Fed not pushed it higher to reach the 2% level.

Nevertheless, there is no way that empirical evidence can really prove the economic theory, on anything. In rare cases perhaps there is real evidence to "prove" a theory is true. But usually not. In this case we have good evidence which is consistent with the theory that higher cost of production -> higher prices, or lower production cost -> lower prices, or increased trade and competition -> lower prices.

It is totally accepted throughout all the schools of economics that higher production cost does lead to higher prices to consumers, and that lower production cost leads to lower prices. If this were not so, then we would not have antitrust laws requiring companies to compete rather than collude to fix prices. These laws exist, and sometimes are enforced, because all economists say that consumers benefit from lower prices as a result of the increased competition, with more players or more sellers competing to keep down costs and improve quality and optimizing the level of production.

Though the above consumer price index graph doesn't seem to reflect the lower price inflation, from about the 90s and later, still the chart showing the inflation rates since the 1950s clearly shows a long period of inflation, starting about 69-70 and declining in the late 80s and coming down steadily, as global trade increased, and then remaining low almost every year up to the present, in an unusual period of low inflation.

That doesn't prove the theory, because of all the other factors, but it's totally consistent with the theory that increased trade -- increased competition globally -- probably causes lower production cost and thus lower prices (or rather, lower inflation rate than would have been otherwise).

Another consideration is that trade is less than 1/3 of the U.S. economy, so whatever trade factors may be impacting prices are much less important than the domestic factors unrelated to trade.

In short, all the empirical facts are consistent with the theory that the increased global trade has caused downward pressure on prices paid by consumers. And this theory is based on fundamental economic principles of supply-and-demand and the benefits of competition, recognized by all economists. These are not contradicted by a graph, though the basic principles do have to be consistent with the empirical facts. It's not clear if the graph contradicts the numbers in the inflation chart, though it's difficult to harmonize the two.

Perhaps the CPI graph shows something different than the inflation rate, but the inflation rate chart reflects the increasing prices during the 1970s, and these numbers indicate that inflation before the expanded global trade was higher and then declined in the 1990s and has remained abnormally low up to the present, despite efforts by the Fed to drive it higher.

Also, the annual SS COLA increases show a pattern of low increases recently compared to the 1970s and 80s when the yearly increases were much higher. https://www.aarp.org/retirement/social-security/info-2020/colas-history.html These increases have become less even after they started out high and dropped quickly from the 1980 level.

Also, the CPI graph above is problematic as to the meaning. It seems to say that average prices in about 2010-2020 have been 5 or 6 times higher than those of the 1970s, which is contrary to everything I personally experienced. Maybe apartment rentals, but in general there's hardly anything which is 5 times higher now than in the 1970s.

And since about 2000 it seems most prices have not increased. A few have, but they are offset by others which have decreased.

Everything I can remember buying has cost either the same or less in recent times, not more. Some of it is due to new technology which produces the same product (or improved product) in later years at a lower price than the earlier years. Like a heater which today cost only $10 but cost $30 or $40 back in the 1980s. And computer products and many other examples.

And all food prices I pay are the same or lower, except fresh produce which has increased only a little. Though I know there are increases in some things I never buy. And even produce has increased much lower than anything the CPI graph suggests. It's true a head of lettuce is much higher than in the 70s and 80s, but not 5 times higher -- not even close. So something is left out of that graph.

The increase in trade with Latin America has led to better choices in food products, and lower prices than there would have been otherwise. Also the use of immigrant labor has helped keep prices down. This is absolutely the case regardless of any graph you might come up with.

Maybe the explanation for the discrepancy is the inclusion of tourism and other luxuries having nothing to do with imports and immigrant/foreign labor which definitely help limit price increases.

Does the graph include drugs? Does it include college tuition? Maybe it includes restaurant prices or other luxuries which most people don't need, and these have gone up at an unusual rate.

Items which can easily be imported have not gone up in any way that this graph suggests. There's nothing I buy which costs 5 or 6 times as much as it did in the 70s and 80s. Even twice as much is rare. So it's not clear what this graph is supposed to include. It must include something many people buy which cannot be imported and involves more luxury spending, entertainment, fancy dinners, tourism, hotels, etc. Definitely hotel prices have skyrocketed.

If there was any way we could "import" hotels, or hotel services, or other tourism products, then probably that cost would not have increased so much.

There is no way to prove exactly what cause produced what effect, in economics. But the evidence allows plenty of explanation how cheaper labor led to lower prices.

And obviously there are many other factors than trade which can cause higher prices (and lower prices). Just because one factor put downward pressure on prices doesn't mean there are no other factors also pushing some prices upward. So the lower-prices benefit of trade could be counteracted by some other factors driving prices upward.

It's really wacko economics to maintain that higher cost of production per se does not put upward pressure on the prices.
 
The unwillingness of management to allow workers a greater share in the profit that they help to create drives up prices. Instead of being satisfied with marginally lower profit margin, the management jacks up their prices. Look at the way some multinationals exploit cheap labour in developing nations.

Be it personal or corporate, it's called Greed.
 
The unwillingness of management to allow workers a greater share in the profit that they help to create drives up prices. Instead of being satisfied with marginally lower profit margin, the management jacks up their prices. Look at the way some multinationals exploit cheap labour in developing nations.

Be it personal or corporate, it's called Greed.

Reality: Lower profit margins, fewer companies are interested in entering the field, as old ones fail the competition goes down and the prices go up until profit margins are back to where they are. Too high profit margins, more players enter, competition drives the prices down.

The only way the owner influences profit margins is through a monopoly or through being more or less efficient. (The more efficient company makes more, the less efficient one makes less and very well might fail.)
 
The unwillingness of management to allow workers a greater share in the profit that they help to create drives up prices. Instead of being satisfied with marginally lower profit margin, the management jacks up their prices. Look at the way some multinationals exploit cheap labour in developing nations.

Be it personal or corporate, it's called Greed.

Reality: Lower profit margins, fewer companies are interested in entering the field, as old ones fail the competition goes down and the prices go up until profit margins are back to where they are. Too high profit margins, more players enter, competition drives the prices down.

The only way the owner influences profit margins is through a monopoly or through being more or less efficient. (The more efficient company makes more, the less efficient one makes less and very well might fail.)

You make claims that you don't support. There are countries and companies that pay their workers reasonable wages and still do well economically. Employees can also be rewarded for their labour and skill, not just the rich, which means a happier, wealthier, saner society.
 
Again "fair trade" = imposing higher-than-necessary (labor) cost = everyone is made worse off.

Once again, no one can explain how "fair trade" is better than "free trade" (It's just more popular because it gives a warm cozy feeling.) -- Every example shows that "fair trade" produces a net loss for society, and is based on nothing but scapegoating employers, or punishing them for being in that class instead of in the majority wage-earner class.


The issue is still the power imbalance between individual workers and their employer, . . .

Yes, you've chanted that mantra at least a dozen times, but never answered why it's bad for a poor person individually to work for an employer who is in the elite top .01% (or .00001%). You can't show one case where this was ever bad, as long as the worker is free to say no to the deal. Your only reason why it's bad is your HATE for all employers, or all rich employers.

For thousands of years there has been the power imbalance, and those workers were ALWAYS better off having the choice to take that job. They were better off than if the employer had not been there, as long as they were free to take that job or leave it. You can't name any case, even hypothetical, where a worker was made worse off by that employer being there, regardless of the power imbalance, no matter how great the imbalance was.

. . . between individual workers and their employer, an imbalance that does not allow the average worker a market based share of the wealth . . .

If this were true, then the lowest wages would be paid by the richest most powerful corporations, which is not the case. The lowest wages are paid by smaller companies, or mom-n-pop stores, small operators which couldn't stay in business if they had to pay the normal wage level. The lowest-paid employees work mostly not for the richest employers, but for middle- to small-size companies, including labor-intensive sweatshops whose owners could not stay in business if they had to pay the same wage level as the large corporations pay.

. . . an imbalance that does not allow the average worker a market based share of the wealth that their work generates.

Your phrase "a market based share of the wealth that their work generates" is gibberish. You have no idea what the "market-based share" is or how it would be calculated. It's only supply-and-demand which can determine the market-based share.

Your "market based share" is a mindless delusion you cannot explain. You just make up some number depending on how rich the employer is. Your "market based share" is higher if the employer is richer, so that for the same work done, according to you, the "market based share" is higher if the employer is more rich and powerful.

Why should that be? Why shouldn't the same work done be paid the same whether the employer is rich or poor? Why should a worker be paid a higher wage only because he works for a more rich and powerful employer? If he's doing the same work as another worker in a poor company, why shouldn't the "market based share" be the same for both, if it's the same work? If it's the same work, then each one is generating the same amount of wealth, i.e., the work being done has the same value.

If one company takes that same work and somehow produces more wealth from it than another company, how is that worker the one who is generating that extra wealth? He's doing nothing different than the other worker whose company creates more wealth from the same work. It's not that worker generating that extra wealth, but the company somehow deriving greater value, beyond what that worker did.

There is no way to determine the true "market based share" other than to let supply-and-demand determine it, according to what the buyer and seller (employer and wage-earner) decide in their free choice to do the transaction.


By your "fair trade" requirement (or "market based share")-imposed wage level,

all VOLUNTEER WORK would be made illegal.

You've not explained how your demand would not require eliminating ALL volunteer work, of any kind.

For society, it's best if the work is done for free, if any worker would agree to such terms. It's only because no worker (in most cases) is willing to do it for free that a price has to be offered, for some worker to agree to it. The real market-based share, to make any sense, must be whatever that price is, i.e., the lowest that some worker will accept. Even if the price agreed to was only $1/day, there's nothing wrong with that. Society is better off if some worker would do it for that. Or even for free (which does sometimes happen).

Even if workers agreed to do it for free, that would still not be less than the market-based share, or the correct price. As long as they're free to refuse and demand more than that, the offer of ZERO can still be the correct price, or market-based share of the wealth that their work generates. There are some cases where the job has some attractiveness to it, or prestige, that some worker would do it for free. In that case then, the correct price for their work might be ZERO and they could be hired to do it for free, and that would be the correct price, or the market-based share which they generate. It is "market-based" because there is someone available to do it for free, which means the SUPPLY of labor is so high that even a zero price is enough. I.e., the higher the supply of labor (or whatever is being sold) -> lower price.

And there are in fact some jobs which are done for free. It may in reality be something similar to a barter arrangement, like a favor in return for something, or relationship where individuals do something together, each doing their part. Or it can be a volunteer-type job, where a worker gets no payment. There is no way to dictate to any worker, or employer, what the true market-based share is. It cannot be determined other than according to whatever the worker and employer agree to. That they both agree to a particular price, or even ZERO price, is precisely what fixes the correct market-based share, or the correct price for it. It is only the choice of that worker and employer, with no outside interference, which fixes the proper price for that particular work.

Depending on the terminology, you could say the "value" in the case of volunteer work, or work-for-free, might be different than the proper price paid for it. The correct price in that case might be less than the actual "value" of it. But that's just terminology, or jargon. It's best to just say that ANY price is correct if the parties agree to it, even a ZERO price. It's only those individuals doing the transaction who are entitled to say what the correct price is, including if it's very low or zero, as in the case of volunteer work. So there may still be a "value" to it above zero, but because of the supply of labor available, the correct price goes lower than the "value" -- even to zero.

Obviously there's no way to calculate the true correct price or value separate from the supply-and-demand and from the choices of whoever pays and whoever chooses to do that work. So if the free choice of the worker and employer is not what determines the correct price, then it becomes totally subjective and meaningless gibberish to call it "market based" which it's not, being based only on the personal impulse of whoever has the power to impose their will onto others.

There's a reason why only the free choice of buyer and seller (employer and worker) should determine the correct price. It's not the terminology of "value" or "price" or other jargon. Rather, the reason is that the social benefit is maximized by keeping every price or cost down to the minimum possible, which is whatever some producer/worker will agree to do it for.


Wealth that flows upwards, into the hands of a small percentage of the population.

If that's the problem, then stop scapegoating employers as a class by insisting that they all must be penalized and pay workers higher than the market supply-and-demand price (wage). That won't stop wealth from flowing upward into the hands of a small percentage. Not all employers are in that elite small percentage, yet your only prescription is to scapegoat this one class, penalizing all employers. And also, many of the upper elite rich and powerful are not employers. So your solution ignores them, letting the wealth continue flowing to that tiny elite.


A situation that is bad for society as a whole and the economy, . . .

And which your employer-bashing solution does not correct. The bad situation you describe is not fixed by forcing all employers to pay workers higher than the market-based price for their labor. Rather, your false solution only reduces the total production and increases the prices all consumers must pay, including all the poor, thus solving nothing and making everyone worse off. Why do you think imposing higher prices on the poor, increasing their cost of living, does anything to solve this bad situation (too much wealth flowing upward)?

. . . for society as a whole and the economy, which is supposed to benefit all its members, not just the economic elite.

It benefits the society as a whole and all members if all buyers and sellers are left free to choose individually what price to pay or what price to charge, and for the price of anything, including labor, never to be propped up above this market-based price -- even if that price is ZERO (e.g., volunteer work). No matter how low it is, there is no benefit, but only harm, in propping up the price higher than the lowest price someone is willing to do it for. That extra cost has to be paid by someone -> higher prices to all consumers -> society and "all its members" are made worse off, not better.
 
Once again, no one can explain how "fair trade" is better than "free trade"
That is a blatantly false claim. It has been explained a number of times. Conflating your refusal/inability to comprehend the explanation does not mean it does not exist.
 
Once again, no one can explain how "fair trade" is better than "free trade"
That is a blatantly false claim. It has been explained a number of times. Conflating your refusal/inability to comprehend the explanation does not mean it does not exist.

Not to mention the fact that this screed-belching noise machine just keeps claiming that there's a "higher than necessary" labor cost being created...

"Necessary" for whom, exactly? Because last I knew, labor costs must be as high as possible, because it is "necessary" for labor to get paid because labor are the folks who actually buy shit.
 
Once again, no one can explain how "fair trade" is better than "free trade" (It's just more popular because it gives a warm cozy feeling.) -- Every example shows that "fair trade" produces a net loss for society, and is based on nothing but scapegoating employers, or punishing them for being in that class instead of in the majority wage-earner class.

You have yet to address the issue I brought up--cases where the relationship between the producer and distributor is far from free trade. It's common in third world areas--the individual producer has few choices in who to sell to and at a rigged price.

There's also the issue of not buying from the company that is destructive in it's operation. For an example of the problems of free trade, consider dolphin-safe tuna. Note how you can't find it anymore--that's because the WTO ruled it was an attempt to improperly protect domestic producers. No--it was an added value to ecologically-minded consumers, stamped out in the name of free trade.
 
Yes, you've chanted that mantra at least a dozen times, but never answered why it's bad for a poor person individually to work for an employer who is in the elite top .01% (or .00001%).

I repeatedly point to the power imbalance and try to explain it in different ways because you and others who hold your faith have not grasped the basics of leverage and the dynamics of power.

I suspect that you refuse to consider these things because it goes against your faith.

You can't show one case where this was ever bad, as long as the worker is free to say no to the deal. Your only reason why it's bad is your HATE for all employers, or all rich employers.

Which just shows that you have either not understood what has been explained and supported, or you refuse to consider the possibility that your faith is wrong, and that it is you who hate workers, that it is you who seeks to keep the standards of life for workers down in order to maximize the wealth of those who are already super rich. You, sir, are a defender of Greed and avarice.
 
The market is just doing its job, rewarding what is more valuable.

So, stop whining and become more valuable.



Employers have always tried keeping costs [e.g., labor cost] down. There's nothing new here. If employers tried keeping cost down before and paid higher wages than now, it means that the market value of wages has gone down.

edit: It sounds to me like you just want workers to get more money. It certainly possible. While workers are being paid relatively lower wages, the entire economy is doing better than ever. We have an amazingly wealthy world today. It's never before been easier to skim money off the top and simply give to the poor. If that's what you want to do, just do that. Instead of trying to guilt employers for doing their jobs. They're not doing anything wrong. They're just following what the market dictates. A hot tip... don't fuck with the market. It tends to not work out.

I have provided stats that show workers are not getting market value for their labour.

No, what those stats show is that the market value for labor (or certain labor, not ALL labor) has decreased. I.e., those particular workers are worth less today than they were worth before, because of supply-and-demand. Maybe it's a large part of the workforce, because the need for wage-earners generally has decreased. So what they're paid is generally what they're worth, according to supply-and-demand.


That wages have been stagnating for decades, that workers are falling behind.

Only because their VALUE has stagnated, and the need for them is "falling behind" because of supply-and-demand. What they must do (if they want more) is to become more valuable, instead of less.


Therefore 'the market' has not worked.

No, the market is working fine. It places higher value on those producers/workers who do better, whose performance improves so that they do better at meeting the market demand. But it places LOWER value on those producers/workers who don't improve, who stay the same and are surpassed by others who improve and do better at meeting the market demand. The market works well at placing a higher value (and wage or profit) to those who perform better and meet the need better.

But meanwhile the uncompetitive crybabies losing out complain that the market "has not worked" meaning that it's giving them only what they're worth instead of giving them more automatically because they think they're entitled to more even though they didn't earn it.


The market has not maintained wages at their market value.

Wrong, it has maintained wages of low-value workers at their low market value, which might be a significant % of the labor force. It has retained those wages at that point, or even lowered them, according to the lower value of those workers. It's the lower value which has maintained the wages at a lower level.


Meanwhile employers, CEO's, management, etc., have enjoyed increases in leaps and bounds, quite likely exceeding their market value.

Suppose it's true that management etc. is getting more than its real value. Maybe so in some cases. But what's the solution to that? It's not to automatically prop up the wages of ALL wage-earners, even those who haven't improved, plus also punish ALL employers, forcing them all to pay more, above supply-and-demand. Just singling out all employers for punishment doesn't solve anything. And the ones you're targeting to be punished are not the particular super-rich getting "increases in leaps and bounds," but are ones struggling to survive. So even if you're identifying a real problem in the market, your supposed solution only makes it worse, punishing certain players who did nothing wrong.


A clear case of double standards.

The standard should be to reward all those who improve or do better performance at serving the demand, but not every wage-earner just for being a wage-earner per se. No, only the wage-earners who improve individually should get paid more, to reward them individually for their better performance at serving market demand. And this is what the market is doing.

And if it's rewarding some super-rich too much, identify those particular super-rich and reduce their profit -- maybe tax them more. But don't crack down on ALL employers as a class. That's just scapegoating.


Seemingly limitless pay for the top end of town, . . .

If something's wrong there, then offer a fix. But don't just scapegoat all employers as a class and prescribe a punishment to inflict on ALL employers rich and poor. Most of them are NOT "the top end of town" with "limitless pay" -- some are struggling to survive, and yet you want to bash them all just because they're employers.

. . . but heaven forbid a modest pay rise for the average worker.

Why should they get rewarded for doing no improvement? The "average worker" is not increasing in value, so should not be paid more. But those ones who have improved are getting their appropriate pay raise. The market supply-and-demand determines this, not a crybaby demand of ALL workers to get a bigger "share" of someone else's higher value based on improved performance by the company, mostly due to contribution of scientists and other high-level specialists/professionals.
 
FREE TRADE = Let the market (supply-and-demand) work = less competitive do worse, more competitive do better.

FAIR TRADE = bash all employers, demand higher pay for all workers, including the uncompetitive, because we have to feel sorry for the crybabies.


You need to stop your obsession on just finding scapegoats (employers) and instead seek real solutions to improve the production, to improve the performance of producers/workers.

Nothing I have said is about 'scapegoats' - that is your rationale.

When the only solution you have for anything is that employers must pay more, then you're scapegoating employers. You demand that as a given, insisting that all employers must be forced by law to pay higher. While all other prices are set by the market, or free choice of the buyers and sellers.

It's "scapegoating" when you single out any one class for punishment, and no others.


The issue was always about power imbalance, that those in power have the ability and means to make the rules suit their own interests.

But many employers have little power, and are even weak. Yet you scapegoat them too, demanding that ALL employers must be punished. And you totally let off the hook all the powerful who are not employers. Your only solution to anything is to punish employers. That is scapegoating. Not about power imbalance. There are many small companies, not strong, who are struggling to survive, yet you want to punish them by forcing them to pay higher price for labor, so some of them cannot even survive that high cost. It's not true that they have power. It's not true that they "have the ability and means to make the rules suit their own interests." That doesn't describe many employers who are struggling to survive. And yet you want to punish ALL employers, even the weak ones.


No blame. That's just how it is.

Yes, you just want to punish them because they're employers -- that's the way it is. You hate all employers and that's how it is, and nothing else matters except your hate for all employers you want to punish, even the small ones. So it's not "blame" -- it's just hate and punishment for this one class you target.


That is the way the world works.

Yes, your hate for one particular class is the way you want the world to work (and sometimes does work). No other rationale. Just class hate.
 
Employer-bashing and -scapegoating necessarily inflicts damage onto companies, even destroying some.

Specifically which business was destroyed through strike action? One example.

There are many. But no one single cause usually produced one single result. Rather, the strike is a contributing factor, sometimes major, combining with others.

Here's one example where a company went bankrupt shortly after a strike which crippled the company: https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1988-03-06-me-818-story.html
It's debatable whether this downfall of a company ultimately led to a better company, or better operation to replace the earlier. The above gives examples how the service to the public deteriorated after this event.

In any case one company fell shortly after the strike, which resulted in huge costs and loss to the company. And obviously there are thousands of other examples.


Specifically which business was destroyed through strike action? One example.
Goalposts!

They're not destroyed by the strike, they're put in a precarious financial position and sometimes die with the next economic downturn.

So you can provide evidence for that?

The burden of proof is on any fool who claims there is no harmful effect on a struggling company if the workers go on a strike which costs it millions of $$$$.

When you scapegoat all employers and force them all to pay higher than the market supply-and-demand wage level, you are going to do damage to many of those companies, driving some to bankruptcy, causing reduced production and resulting lower living standard overall, and higher prices. And it's nutcase idiotic mental retardation to claim all those companies were rich and powerful and enjoying obscene profits. On the contrary, it's the ones on the margin who cut costs to the bone, including labor cost, trying to survive.
 
Worker value declines -> worker pay declines. Supply-and-demand determines this, not warm fuzzy feelings, and employer-bashing hate.

The issue is still the power imbalance between individual workers and their employer, an imbalance that does not allow the average worker a market based share of the wealth that their work generates.
I still don't know what you mean. Whatever they get is what they're worth. That's how a market works and how we calculate worth. If you remove the term "market based share" then you might have a point. But your comment now makes no sense.

Workers are not getting market value for their labour, . . .

Yes they are getting their market value, which is decreasing. Their wages stagnate or fall because their value stagnates or falls, because of supply-and-demand. I.e., the demand for them is falling and the supply of them is increasing.

. . value for their labour, their share in the wealth their work helps to generate has been eroding away for decades.

Because their contribution to the value has decreased. The new value is produced not by the average factory worker, but by specialists, scientists, high-level workers, who are getting increased pay based on their greater value. While the traditional worker you're pandering to has not improved or contributed anything new. Their value has eroded, and so also their share in the wealth produced, their wage, has eroded.


Wages are running at well below market value.

No, they're running below their former value, which back then was a higher % of the wealth produced, but which now is a lower % of the wealth produced. This new wealth is increased now because of higher-level producers than the traditional factory workers, the supply of which has increased while the demand for them has decreased. I.e., they are LESS NEEDED now than they were before, so they are MORE EXPENDABLE or MORE REPLACEABLE = LESS VALUABLE.


The stats have been posted.

Those stats show the lower value of those workers, because the wealth has increased while their own contribution has not, making them less valuable than before.


Employers don't raise wages according to market value, . . .

Yes they do, when the value of the workers increases. For certain specialized workers the value has increased, and the wages paid to them also have increased. It's only the ones whose value has stagnated or decreased who see their wages stagnate or decrease.


they try to keep costs down.

All businesses are supposed to keep their costs down. If those workers lose some of their value, it's appropriate for the business to reduce the wages, to minimize cost. Any good business tries to minimize any of its cost. So when worker value goes down, it's appropriate to reduce that cost (those wages).
 
Must be some sort of record for walls of text.....have you been working on it for the last few days in the hope that sheer volume overwhelms all opposition?

You are wrong for all the given reasons. You are a defender of greed and avarice.
 
[Wall of text etc.] . . . Rather, the only data on this is that the MW, as long as it's low enough, does only small damage to employment, hopefully none, but no study has ever shown that it does no damage at all. It's just that the damage is too small to measure.

Holy Crock....how long did you work on that post? A waste of time.

When the point is to explain why someone is not worth what they're demanding, it's appropriate to give a full explanation, rather than short snappy slogans.


A waste of time because it remains true that workers have been losing market share of the wealth their labour generates for decades.

Again, they are not losing anything that they earned. Their "share" which they generated has been decreasing for decades, and so they take less, or a smaller percent of what is produced, because what they produce has become less, as they have become more replaceable and expendable and less needed and thus less valuable. All you're doing is demanding pity pay for them, not giving any reason why they should be paid more than they're getting.


Nothing has changed.

Your claims were wrong from the start.

What's wrong is your insistence that all workers are automatically entitled to be paid more only because the company found ways to increase the wealth produced, while those workers did nothing new to cause that increase in wealth produced -- but were only given a better machine to operate.
 
FAIR TRADE = bash all employers, demand higher pay for all workers, including the uncompetitive, because we have to feel sorry for the crybabies.
Repeating bilious nonsense does not have the effect you imagine.


Yes, your hate for one particular class is the way you want the world to work (and sometimes does work). No other rationale. Just class hate.
A perfect example of clueless irony.
 
FAIR TRADE = bash all employers, demand higher pay for all workers, including the uncompetitive, because we have to feel sorry for the crybabies.
Repeating bilious nonsense does not have the effect you imagine.


Yes, your hate for one particular class is the way you want the world to work (and sometimes does work). No other rationale. Just class hate.
A perfect example of clueless irony.

His lack of self-awareness is incredible.
 
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