Why is it so important for theists that God exists?

[DrZoidberg]

It's pretty clear that religion helps the faithful in various ways. If they feel it does then it does. There's no point arguing against that.

What I don't understand is why the religious can't leave it at that?

Why is it so important for them that God exists? Can't God maybe exist?

Why can't the creator of the universe be just whatever force created the universe? Maybe God, maybe not

Maybe God isn't omnipotent. Maybe God is ineffable (which most religious people at least pay lip service to). Maybe God is just powerful? Or maybe God is just a metaphor? Maybe God guided the creation of the Bible. Maybe not. Perhaps there's words on wisdom in all religions? Perhaps all religiosity is propelled by the same force? Why not embrace the mystery?

How does any of this make the faith any less powerful?

What this has going for it is that it's honest. I know there is some religious people who's faith is like this. But why isn't all of them this honest?

With this stance all the religious debates melt away. They become irrelevant. And if it weakens the faith... well... then you weren't all that faithful to begin with, were you?

 

[Methinx]

Why is it so important for them that God exists? Can't God maybe exist?

I believe it has to do with soul and eternal life; no god = no eternal life. That is the hardest thing to give up.

Some people credit themselves with such importance...their essence is bound to exist for all eternity in some form or other.
And a god is necessary for that to happen.

 

[DrZoidberg]

I believe it has to do with soul and eternal life; no god = no eternal life. That is the hardest thing to give up.

But what's wrong with admitting that they will only maybe go to Heaven? Eternity is a long time. Why eternity?

Some people credit themselves with such importance...their essence is bound to exist for all eternity in some form or other.
And a god is necessary for that to happen.

So narcissism? Not saying you're wrong. I just wonder if it's that simple.

 

[Methinx]

But what's wrong with admitting that they will only maybe go to Heaven? Eternity is a long time. Why eternity?

Some people credit themselves with such importance...their essence is bound to exist for all eternity in some form or other.
And a god is necessary for that to happen.

So narcissism? Not saying you're wrong. I just wonder if it's that simple.

I might have put it wrong, not narcissism; not quite sure how to describe it.
But all those struggles, all that learning, all those experiences, all of ME ...to just vanish?

 

[DrZoidberg]

But what's wrong with admitting that they will only maybe go to Heaven? Eternity is a long time. Why eternity?



So narcissism? Not saying you're wrong. I just wonder if it's that simple.

I might have put it wrong, not narcissism; not quite sure how to describe it.
But all those struggles, all that learning, all those experiences, all of ME ...to just vanish?

Sure. But nobody knows. What's wrong with just hoping you'll live forever in some form? Why do they so adamantly claim that they know they're going to heaven? Everybody knows they're just talking shit.

I've seen pantheistic very beautiful descriptions of how the energy that makes up our bodies is eternal and moves onto a new form. A wonderful image. What it has going for it is that it's scientifically accurate. No need to bullshit and no need for having faith in bizarre shit.

 

[Methinx]

I might have put it wrong, not narcissism; not quite sure how to describe it.
But all those struggles, all that learning, all those experiences, all of ME ...to just vanish?

Sure. But nobody knows. What's wrong with just hoping you'll live forever in some form? Why do they so adamantly claim that they know they're going to heaven? Everybody knows they're just talking shit.

I've seen pantheistic very beautiful descriptions of how the energy that makes up our bodies is eternal and moves onto a new form. A wonderful image. What it has going for it is that it's scientifically accurate. No need to bullshit and no need for having faith in bizarre shit.

The 'energy that makes up our bodies' is probably not conscious or capable to retain memories, with a 'god given soul' you are guaranteed continued awareness.
You are still yourself, god is too merciful to forget you, even if you end up in hell.
A kind of cognitive dissonance.

As you say, I may be wrong, I am curious to see what other people think about your question.

 

[another1]

god is too merciful to forget you, even if you end up in hell.

The idea for sorting out your bad parts and keeping the good parts as a "soul" is one interpretation hell's purpose. As soon as you leave your body, you probably become information, and you're filtered. Maybe even scattered. God does it of course but God knows computers as well as the next guy, you'd think.

Then you come together like shards.. into a Voltron of your good parts. The process of filtering may be painful, who knows? Maybe it takes a while. Maybe the energy released during the filtering of the filthy, unspeakable things we do in life is actually what fuels oversoul crafts, where our real bodies lie in stasis. Maybe you're alive to sin. And conquer. Awesome game, and considering what we naturally do for fun, not unfeasible. I would lean further in that direction with better proofs that I'm simulated. I mean, what else would there be to do, if I were a being of pure thought? I'd bust out some board games and make fun of people. I'd set the shit on fire, screw it. Totally screw with the players. They would be so screwed from the very beginning. Jesus I bet there really is a hell man.

If the filtering is done to somehow make a simulation run better, that makes more sense. Suffering (though funny to the omnipotent) is bad. You'd think that we would undergo a mental exam between lives. Experiencing a human life, and then returning to timelessness is probably traumatic. They probably have marvelous Holy technology for the whole process but Jees imagine the shock. Or maybe it is so common that it is taken in shifts.

Human sleep patterns are strange. The more a person begins to hallucinate due to insomnia - the more reality is breaking down. People DIE from not sleeping. Think about it man. They DIE. Processing failure. Do you know anything about dreams? Sleeping, and how it relates to the obvious human soul?

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

I might have put it wrong, not narcissism; not quite sure how to describe it.
But all those struggles, all that learning, all those experiences, all of ME ...to just vanish?

Sure. But nobody knows. What's wrong with just hoping you'll live forever in some form? Why do they so adamantly claim that they know they're going to heaven? Everybody knows they're just talking shit.

I've seen pantheistic very beautiful descriptions of how the energy that makes up our bodies is eternal and moves onto a new form. A wonderful image. What it has going for it is that it's scientifically accurate. No need to bullshit and no need for having faith in bizarre shit.

You've come to terms with your own mortality. Religious people have not. That is the difference.

 

[abaddon]

... What's wrong with just hoping you'll live forever in some form? Why do they so adamantly claim that they know they're going to heaven? Everybody knows they're just talking shit.

I've seen pantheistic very beautiful descriptions of how the energy that makes up our bodies is eternal and moves onto a new form. A wonderful image. What it has going for it is that it's scientifically accurate. No need to bullshit and no need for having faith in bizarre shit.

Yeah but such a heraclitean view would seem terrifying to a lot of people. Many people, and a lot of them religious, have an essentialist streak in them, and good of chunk of self-centeredness too because they want to be eternal personally.

"Maybe, maybe not" doesn't answer their fear of death. They need dead-on certainty about it because "I will end" freaks them out.

The need for eternity gives them a dismal view of physicality because it changes. Being subject to decay makes a body weak and frail and so it betrays their wants (it's "corruptible"). So how time makes everything change (and most significantly, makes the person subject to death) means matter cannot be all there is. If the universe were matter and not also spirit it'd be chaotic randomness. So it takes immaterial intelligence-guided forces to shape "mere matter" into order. Without the intelligent force from an Eternal Beyond everything would be just a flotsam of dumb stuff. This spirit-matter dualism is an ancient "meme".

The force that makes everything "go" has to be personal, else it couldn't love. Which would leave them feeling like lost orphans in chaos; their personal existence won't have been intended. Every child wants to feel intended and loved because that assures it will be looked out for and protected from death, and some people never grow out of this need.

Fear of death keeps a human alive but it seems amped up in some people more than others. People don't reason all this stuff through because being "factually correct" isn't what assures their survival. They feel the need, they answer with opinion and fantasy, they look for others to share the fantasy with to make it feel more certain, they argue against those vile heretics who induce uncertainty in them.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Sure. But nobody knows. What's wrong with just hoping you'll live forever in some form? Why do they so adamantly claim that they know they're going to heaven? Everybody knows they're just talking shit.

I've seen pantheistic very beautiful descriptions of how the energy that makes up our bodies is eternal and moves onto a new form. A wonderful image. What it has going for it is that it's scientifically accurate. No need to bullshit and no need for having faith in bizarre shit.

The 'energy that makes up our bodies' is probably not conscious or capable to retain memories, with a 'god given soul' you are guaranteed continued awareness.
You are still yourself, god is too merciful to forget you, even if you end up in hell.
A kind of cognitive dissonance.

As you say, I may be wrong, I am curious to see what other people think about your question.

But we know from research with brain trauma that the soul, even if it exists and goes to heaven, won't retain much of our personality. That's all in the brain. So whatever continues "living" will be something else entirely. Can't it be just pure energy?

 

[DrZoidberg]

Sure. But nobody knows. What's wrong with just hoping you'll live forever in some form? Why do they so adamantly claim that they know they're going to heaven? Everybody knows they're just talking shit.

I've seen pantheistic very beautiful descriptions of how the energy that makes up our bodies is eternal and moves onto a new form. A wonderful image. What it has going for it is that it's scientifically accurate. No need to bullshit and no need for having faith in bizarre shit.

You've come to terms with your own mortality. Religious people have not. That is the difference.

Is it really that simple? To me coming to terms with my mortality is a critical part of growing up. People who don't will stay children until they do.

I just don't buy it. I think even people who believe in God and Heaven on some level must understand it's bullshit. Why else would they cry at funerals?

Maybe it's just positive thinking on my part. But I don't think I could keep myself from giggling if an adult said that they honestly believed they'd live forever in Heaven. How awkward would that be at a funeral?

 

[Syed]

It's pretty clear that religion helps the faithful in various ways. If they feel it does then it does. There's no point arguing against that.

What I don't understand is why the religious can't leave it at that?

Why is it so important for them that God exists? Can't God maybe exist?

Why can't the creator of the universe be just whatever force created the universe? Maybe God, maybe not

Maybe God isn't omnipotent. Maybe God is ineffable (which most religious people at least pay lip service to). Maybe God is just powerful? Or maybe God is just a metaphor? Maybe God guided the creation of the Bible. Maybe not. Perhaps there's words on wisdom in all religions? Perhaps all religiosity is propelled by the same force? Why not embrace the mystery?

How does any of this make the faith any less powerful?

What this has going for it is that it's honest. I know there is some religious people who's faith is like this. But why isn't all of them this honest?

With this stance all the religious debates melt away. They become irrelevant. And if it weakens the faith... well... then you weren't all that faithful to begin with, were you?

Why is it so important for theists that God exists?

you are asking question in a way that " Why is it so important for theists that SUN exists?

we theists just acknowledging that someone created us and the universe that all

atheists believe that universe and everything in it is product of blind random accidentS

human eye created by blind random accidentS

 

[Methinx]

The 'energy that makes up our bodies' is probably not conscious or capable to retain memories, with a 'god given soul' you are guaranteed continued awareness.
You are still yourself, god is too merciful to forget you, even if you end up in hell.
A kind of cognitive dissonance.

As you say, I may be wrong, I am curious to see what other people think about your question.

But we know from research with brain trauma that the soul, even if it exists and goes to heaven, won't retain much of our personality. That's all in the brain. So whatever continues "living" will be something else entirely. Can't it be just pure energy?

I doubt many individuals would be aware of research with brain trauma or care about pure energy.

The most difficult thing to give up is one's own self.

Religion is successful because it promises immortality and awareness after death with memories and self intact.
.

 

[Methinx]

atheists believe that universe and everything in it is product of blind random accidentS

Syed believes "atheists believe that universe and everything in it is product of blind random accidentS"

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

You've come to terms with your own mortality. Religious people have not. That is the difference.

Is it really that simple? To me coming to terms with my mortality is a critical part of growing up. People who don't will stay children until they do.

I just don't buy it. I think even people who believe in God and Heaven on some level must understand it's bullshit. Why else would they cry at funerals?

Maybe it's just positive thinking on my part. But I don't think I could keep myself from giggling if an adult said that they honestly believed they'd live forever in Heaven. How awkward would that be at a funeral?

I'm in my 60's. Seven years ago I was a pall bearer at a funeral for my friend's mother. Riding back from the cemetery an exchange occurred about whether our bodies would resurrect like Catholicism teaches. These were other adults well into life with adult kids, and they still believed strongly that this would literally occur. Of course I said that was just for children, that adults outgrew that stuff. I was the only person who without doubt or question said it did not happen.

So I will have to disagree with you that people don't cling to immortality, that death doesn't frighten them. They're not scientifically literate people for the most part so their knowledge about what constitutes immortality hasn't evolved from what they were taught as children about heaven and angels. They really think they're not gonna die and that Mom and Dad are just in a "better place."

You gotta get out more.

 

[Lion IRC]

...To me coming to terms with my mortality is a critical part of growing up. People who don't will stay children until they do.

Biblical theists know they are mortal.
The bible reminds them over and over and over again.
"Remember man that you are dust and unto dust you shall return"

...I just don't buy it. I think even people who believe in God and Heaven on some level must understand it's bullshit. Why else would they cry at funerals?

You think people crying at funerals correlates to whether or not they are an atheist?
WOW! What an ignorant thing to say.

...Maybe it's just positive thinking on my part. But I don't think I could keep myself from giggling if an adult said that they honestly believed they'd live forever in Heaven. How awkward would that be at a funeral?

You think giggling at a funeral is "positive thinking" on your part?
That's not "awkward" that's disgusting and rude.

 

[J842P]

You've come to terms with your own mortality. Religious people have not. That is the difference.

Is it really that simple? To me coming to terms with my mortality is a critical part of growing up. People who don't will stay children until they do.

I just don't buy it. I think even people who believe in God and Heaven on some level must understand it's bullshit. Why else would they cry at funerals?

Maybe it's just positive thinking on my part. But I don't think I could keep myself from giggling if an adult said that they honestly believed they'd live forever in Heaven. How awkward would that be at a funeral?

No. They actually believe it. Most of them do.

 

[DrZoidberg]

I doubt many individuals would be aware of research with brain trauma or care about pure energy.

The most difficult thing to give up is one's own self.

But everyone has had a headache. That's a persons personality shifting because of temporary brain damage of sorts. Or had a drink of alcohol. That's a personality change due to physical changes in the brain chemistry. This is trivial to check yourself with your own brain. No science is really necessary to learn this.

Nah, I think you're implying that people who believe in Heaven are idiots. I'm not convinced about that.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Biblical theists know they are mortal.
The bible reminds them over and over and over again.
"Remember man that you are dust and unto dust you shall return"

Not sure what you mean, since they also believe in Heaven.

...I just don't buy it. I think even people who believe in God and Heaven on some level must understand it's bullshit. Why else would they cry at funerals?

You think people crying at funerals correlates to whether or not they are an atheist?
WOW! What an ignorant thing to say.

I believe that humans are capable of keeping several ideas in their heads at once. Often conflicting ideas. We can believe things rationally as well as emotionally. We can know things are false rationally, while feeling they are true emotionally. We can shift our beliefs depending on who we are around. Socially competent people are remarkably good at this and might not even notice that they do it.

Humans and human psychology is not simple. We're delightfully complex creatures. Religions and religious thought only focuses on what feels right. They only focus on the emotional aspect of our beliefs.

Science and scientific writing has existed since Imhotep (4500 years ago). The Greeks and the Romans knew how to do it. We've known how to do it a long time. And there's none of it in the Bible other than the odd hint here and there (we can glean due to knowing the context). That should give a hint about what kind of book the Bible is. It's all about our feelings. Which is perfectly fine and doesn't mean it's wrong or bad book. The Quran is a similar type of text.

We can feel we're going to heaven while knowing we're not. That's perfectly normal for our species. And it's fine. I respect it. Feelings matter and we need to take care of them. Something that religions are very good at and secularists often are bad it. Which I think the secular world needs to learn from religions. Human brains are more interesting than most people (both religious and secularists) give is credit for.

...Maybe it's just positive thinking on my part. But I don't think I could keep myself from giggling if an adult said that they honestly believed they'd live forever in Heaven. How awkward would that be at a funeral?

You think giggling at a funeral is "positive thinking" on your part?
That's not "awkward" that's disgusting and rude.

Sure. But it is funny. And when people say funny things I can't promise I can stop myself.

 

[couch_sloth]

If you grow up being constantly told that a particular group of religious beliefs are the only purpose for your existence, then you're more likely to believe that life would be pretty bleak without those beliefs. e.g. Having been raised a Christian, it took me years to realizes that I didn't need a specific overarching purpose to enjoy life.