Why we shouldn't focus on mass shootings

[ronburgundy]

More like #1 in the first world by a factor of 4, and more than half of the third world. More murders than Iran, and about the same as North Korea.
IOW, the level of gun availability due to the legal market causes murder rates similar to having a murderous dictatorship or not having any kind of constitutional democratic system of justice and law enforcement.

You are over simplifying stuff. If the US got rid of certain concentrated cesspools our numbers would look good. If you take all the guns away you can pat yourself on the shoulder, but these areas will still have a high rate of robbery, rape, violet crime, theft, etc.

The US is only a notable outlier among 1st world countries for having 4-10 times the gun-related homicide rate. We are not an outlier for violent crime in general. Thus, guns are the primary direct cause of our homicide rate and not other socio-cultural factors tied to crime more generally. All places have "cesspools", the difference is that people in those cesspools don't murder each other as much because its much harder and riskier to do without a gun. The US "cesspools" are only different in that we allow more people to starve in the streets. The only way to "get rid of them" is to ensure our poor are not so poor to kill them, which the cops are trying out, but that seems like a sub-optimal route.

 

[DrZoidberg]

http://mic.com/articles/22774/mass-...-100-out-of-12-000-annual-homicides-in-the-us

They are less than 1% of homicides, trying to set gun policy based on mass shootings is a case of the tail wagging the dog.

Do you enjoy living in a country that has a murder rate like a third world country?

There´s a smart way and a stupid way to handle guns. Sweden also has a huge number of guns per person. Not as much as USA. But not far from it. And we´ve never had any mash shootings. What is it we do differently. We have very strict laws regarding how they are handled. You need a licence. And licences are revoked if you don´t behave. You´re also not allowed to transport weapons in built up areas in ways so that they can be used. Simple and cheap laws that fix the problem completely.

The Americans can keep their guns AND get rid of high homicide rates. They can have it both ways. They just chose to take the stupid route for some reason I don´t understand.

 

[ronburgundy]

Do you enjoy living in a country that has a murder rate like a third world country?

There´s a smart way and a stupid way to handle guns. Sweden also has a huge number of guns per person. Not as much as USA. But not far from it. And we´ve never had any mash shootings. What is it we do differently. We have very strict laws regarding how they are handled. You need a licence. And licences are revoked if you don´t behave. You´re also not allowed to transport weapons in built up areas in ways so that they can be used. Simple and cheap laws that fix the problem completely.

The Americans can keep their guns AND get rid of high homicide rates. They can have it both ways. They just chose to take the stupid route for some reason I don´t understand.

The US has 3 times the number of guns per capita than Sweden. I would bet this difference is even greater in term of handguns, which are by far the #1 weapon used in homicides and other crimes. Sweden requires that every single gun be registered, a person cannot own more than 8 guns, and handguns are for "sport target shooting" only and the buyer must be a member of an official shooting club. Also all guns must be kept locked up, and use of one in "self-defense" is rarely acceptable and considered murder even if the person is on your property.

IOW, America cannot reduce its homicide rate without massive changes to the number of guns people can have, what they must do to get them, where and when they can use them, and how much the government keeps track of who has exactly what guns.

All these changes would drastically reduce the number of guns legally sold and their ability to be sold and resold for criminal purposes. That is why the NRA (a corporate organization solely interested in profits off of gun culture) opposes every reasonable measure in every one of these areas. Sadly, a majority of gun owners in the US are stupid enough to buy into the NRAs incessant propaganda, even though none of these changes would impact 99% of honest and competent gun owners.

 

[Horatio Parker]

I heard recently that in 1960, 70% of murders were committed with weapons other than firearms.

Now it's the opposite.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

http://mic.com/articles/22774/mass-...-100-out-of-12-000-annual-homicides-in-the-us

They are less than 1% of homicides, trying to set gun policy based on mass shootings is a case of the tail wagging the dog.

Do you enjoy living in a country that has a murder rate like a third world country?

Stay out of the criminal underworld and we have a murder rate like yours.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

http://mic.com/articles/22774/mass-...-100-out-of-12-000-annual-homicides-in-the-us

They are less than 1% of homicides, trying to set gun policy based on mass shootings is a case of the tail wagging the dog.

Well, let me be frank. We tried setting gun policy based on the huge gun murder rate in the country. You didn't listen. So we stepped it up a notch and used mass gun murders to help base a gun policy on. You didn't listen. Then a couple dozen children were fucking murdered... and that "children" thing isn't hyperbole. They weren't high schoolers at Columbine (another incident that you didn't listen to), but actually elementary school kids... when they were murdered... the gun folks were almost crying outloud first... fearful that Obama was going to take away their guns.

At that point, I personally gave up. You just don't fucking care.

The thing is that you're obsessed with the symptom, not the problem.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Well, let me be frank. We tried setting gun policy based on the huge gun murder rate in the country. You didn't listen. So we stepped it up a notch and used mass gun murders to help base a gun policy on. You didn't listen. Then a couple dozen children were fucking murdered... and that "children" thing isn't hyperbole. They weren't high schoolers at Columbine (another incident that you didn't listen to), but actually elementary school kids... when they were murdered... the gun folks were almost crying outloud first... fearful that Obama was going to take away their guns.

At that point, I personally gave up. You just don't fucking care.

The thing is that you're obsessed with the symptom, not the problem.

The problem is mentally ill people have ridiculously easy access to guns and then killing a lot of people.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Depends on the third world country. Some have relatively low murder rates, while some like Honduras and Venezuela are quite high.



More like #111.  List of countries by intentional homicide rate

Where is our Yukon member? The rate plunged the last three years to non-existent. What happened there? And PEI looks like the safest place to live on the planet.

Odd how the red states are typically the higher murder rates. Do red states rank positively over the blue states in anything?

Land per capita.


Churches per capita. (Whether that's positive is debatable, though.)

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I believe the point of the thread is get people to ignore mass killings because mass killings shock the senses and morality of most people and call the proliferation of guns in our society into question. It's not because the people who usually make this argument care about suicide rates or homicide rates or any other rates. If they did, you would see more of them posting threads about those rates OUTSIDE of these threads.

Laws based on the outlier events are usually bad laws.

 

[NobleSavage]

You are over simplifying stuff. If the US got rid of certain concentrated cesspools our numbers would look good. If you take all the guns away you can pat yourself on the shoulder, but these areas will still have a high rate of robbery, rape, violet crime, theft, etc.

The US is only a notable outlier among 1st world countries for having 4-10 times the gun-related homicide rate. We are not an outlier for violent crime in general. Thus, guns are the primary direct cause of our homicide rate and not other socio-cultural factors tied to crime more generally. All places have "cesspools", the difference is that people in those cesspools don't murder each other as much because its much harder and riskier to do without a gun. The US "cesspools" are only different in that we allow more people to starve in the streets. The only way to "get rid of them" is to ensure our poor are not so poor to kill them, which the cops are trying out, but that seems like a sub-optimal route.

You are over simplifying stuff. If the US got rid of certain concentrated cesspools our numbers would look good. If you take all the guns away you can pat yourself on the shoulder, but these areas will still have a high rate of robbery, rape, violet crime, theft, etc.

The US is only a notable outlier among 1st world countries for having 4-10 times the gun-related homicide rate. We are not an outlier for violent crime in general. Thus, guns are the primary direct cause of our homicide rate and not other socio-cultural factors tied to crime more generally. All places have "cesspools", the difference is that people in those cesspools don't murder each other as much because its much harder and riskier to do without a gun. The US "cesspools" are only different in that we allow more people to starve in the streets. The only way to "get rid of them" is to ensure our poor are not so poor to kill them, which the cops are trying out, but that seems like a sub-optimal route.

What cross national study of crime rates are you using to determine that the US is not an outlier violent crime?

What are you including in the "first world"? It bolsters you argument by leaving out a lot. If you want to cherry pick your countries I'm want to cherry pick my states or leave out places like DC, Detroit, East St. Louis, etc. That was what I meant when I said "get rid of".

 

[Juma]

I'm not for free guns, they should definitely be licensed, but the problem is not the guns. It is your rotten welfare systems.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

http://mic.com/articles/22774/mass-...-100-out-of-12-000-annual-homicides-in-the-us

They are less than 1% of homicides

So what?

100 people a year are killed in senseless massacres that are only possible because of the easy availability of guns. Conversely, the easy availability of guns provides no social benefit whatsoever except to amuse people who really really really like guns.

In other words, 100 people each year die for no reason. This is acceptable to you? My right to live in safety is negotiable but your right to own an AR-15 is sacred?

trying to set gun policy based on mass shootings is a case of the tail wagging the dog.

Or it could be a case of basic social responsibility. Gun-related homicides (non-random, non-massive) also happen at a breathtaking rate and most attempts at gun control are designed to reflect this first and foremost.

Do you enjoy living in a country that has a murder rate like a third world country?

Stay out of the criminal underworld and we have a murder rate like yours.

Implying that a significant number of gun-related homicides in the United States directly involve organized crime.

This particular fantasy is the last refuge of the gun nut: the Mafia or the Underworld or the Evil Shadow Brotherhood or whatever they are are lurking around every corner; they are dangerous and unpredictable, and they can target you at any time for any reason totally without warning; when the day comes that the Senior Lieutenant Badass of the Cloak and Villain Society breaks into your house to rape your wife, your only option is to grab your handgun and heroically shoot it out with him because dammit, that's what Bruce Willis would do!



Actually, most gun-related homicides stem from one (or more) of three factors:
1) Flaring tempers
2) Accidental discharge
3) Impaired judgement due to drugs or alcohol

People aren't shooting each other because we're an action-hero dystopia full of violent gangsters who solve their problems with bullets. People are shooting each other because it's easier than fighting (or, for that matter, than talking).

 

[DrZoidberg]

There´s a smart way and a stupid way to handle guns. Sweden also has a huge number of guns per person. Not as much as USA. But not far from it. And we´ve never had any mash shootings. What is it we do differently. We have very strict laws regarding how they are handled. You need a licence. And licences are revoked if you don´t behave. You´re also not allowed to transport weapons in built up areas in ways so that they can be used. Simple and cheap laws that fix the problem completely.

The Americans can keep their guns AND get rid of high homicide rates. They can have it both ways. They just chose to take the stupid route for some reason I don´t understand.

The US has 3 times the number of guns per capita than Sweden. I would bet this difference is even greater in term of handguns, which are by far the #1 weapon used in homicides and other crimes. Sweden requires that every single gun be registered, a person cannot own more than 8 guns, and handguns are for "sport target shooting" only and the buyer must be a member of an official shooting club. Also all guns must be kept locked up, and use of one in "self-defense" is rarely acceptable and considered murder even if the person is on your property.

I think using it for self-defence is never acceptable in Sweden. If you try to argue you used your gun for self-defence in court you´re always fucked. The argument goes, that guns are for killing people. If you didn´t want to kill the person then why defend yourself with the gun? It´s illegal for a civilian to walk around town with a (ready to fire) gun no matter what.

The gun-locker rule I think is a no-brainer. If you have guns then keep them locked up securely. This is partly to prevent thieves getting at them. But also to prevent people from using them for self-defence in their homes. This is not cool in Sweden. Like I said, in Sweden, guns are for killing. Not defending.

The sport shooting requirement needs to be unpacked. All it means is that you shoot the guns at a gun range. Nothing more. That´s what "sport shooting" means. It´s really easy to get certified, both with a gun and to get to run a shooting range. They basically just check your criminal record and that´s it. There´s some mandatory education. But most people just run a video for five minutes, and that´s all of it. I think you lose that licence if you get convicted of a violent crime or drugs. Which I think is fair. Also, you don´t need a licence to shoot a gun at a gun range.

The hunting rules are really lax around guns. The licences for hunting are a fair bit harder to get. But that has more to do with having to learn about animals and how to kill humanely, rather than the weapon handling. But you need to be certified for the nature bit as well. Same here, you can´t use it for self-defence and you can´t walk around with it in a built up area in a ready to fire mode.

IOW, America cannot reduce its homicide rate without massive changes to the number of guns people can have, what they must do to get them, where and when they can use them, and how much the government keeps track of who has exactly what guns.

Findland did this. It took about fifty years. But now Finland is on level with Swedish gun crime. The sooner USA starts the better.

All these changes would drastically reduce the number of guns legally sold and their ability to be sold and resold for criminal purposes. That is why the NRA (a corporate organization solely interested in profits off of gun culture) opposes every reasonable measure in every one of these areas. Sadly, a majority of gun owners in the US are stupid enough to buy into the NRAs incessant propaganda, even though none of these changes would impact 99% of honest and competent gun owners.

That was my argument. Just plain American stupidity.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Where is our Yukon member? The rate plunged the last three years to non-existent. What happened there? And PEI looks like the safest place to live on the planet.

Odd how the red states are typically the higher murder rates. Do red states rank positively over the blue states in anything?

Land per capita.

I kept reading this and was wondering what in the hell "laud per capita" was.

 

[AthenaAwakened]

Guns are not THE problem, but they are A problem. So is the fear of the "other" that is a cornerstone of white supremacy. So is American Rugged Individualism and its myth of homesteaders on the prairie defending kith and kin with only a trusty Winchester and God's good grace. So is a type of libertarianism that tries to take Sociopathy and make it a legitimate political stance instead of what it is, a psychopathic personality disorder evidenced by behaviors that are antisocial, often criminal, and lacking in a sense of moral responsibility, empathy, or social conscience and connection.

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I believe the point of the thread is get people to ignore mass killings because mass killings shock the senses and morality of most people and call the proliferation of guns in our society into question. It's not because the people who usually make this argument care about suicide rates or homicide rates or any other rates. If they did, you would see more of them posting threads about those rates OUTSIDE of these threads.

Laws based on the outlier events are usually bad laws.

Tell it to Australia.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

What cross national study of crime rates are you using to determine that the US is not an outlier violent crime?

What are you including in the "first world"? It bolsters you argument by leaving out a lot. If you want to cherry pick your countries I'm want to cherry pick my states or leave out places like DC, Detroit, East St. Louis, etc. That was what I meant when I said "get rid of".

Check the crimes rates other than murder--the US is lower than much of the pack. It's only our murder rate that's high.

The thing is most of that murder is criminals killing other criminals and thus poses little threat to non-criminals. We do benefit from the lower rate of crimes directed at innocents, though. Thus for the average person our crime profile is actually better than European crime profiles.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

What cross national study of crime rates are you using to determine that the US is not an outlier violent crime?

What are you including in the "first world"? It bolsters you argument by leaving out a lot. If you want to cherry pick your countries I'm want to cherry pick my states or leave out places like DC, Detroit, East St. Louis, etc. That was what I meant when I said "get rid of".

Check the crimes rates other than murder--the US is lower than much of the pack. It's only our murder rate that's high.

The thing is most of that murder is criminals killing other criminals and thus poses little threat to non-criminals. We do benefit from the lower rate of crimes directed at innocents, though. Thus for the average person our crime profile is actually better than European crime profiles.

This is a great point. Why it is totally safe to walk gang land territories because innocents won't be shot, just other criminals.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

So what?

100 people a year are killed in senseless massacres that are only possible because of the easy availability of guns. Conversely, the easy availability of guns provides no social benefit whatsoever except to amuse people who really really really like guns.

In other words, 100 people each year die for no reason. This is acceptable to you? My right to live in safety is negotiable but your right to own an AR-15 is sacred?

The point is that arguments focused on mass killings misrepresent the real issue. Laws aimed at controlling mass shootings will do very little about the overall murder rate because the driving forces are different.

trying to set gun policy based on mass shootings is a case of the tail wagging the dog.

Or it could be a case of basic social responsibility. Gun-related homicides (non-random, non-massive) also happen at a breathtaking rate and most attempts at gun control are designed to reflect this first and foremost.

With measures that won't work because they're only effective against the mass-shooter crazies.

If mass shootings were the only issue then we should liberalize gun laws--guns save more than mass shootings kill.

Do you enjoy living in a country that has a murder rate like a third world country?

Stay out of the criminal underworld and we have a murder rate like yours.

Implying that a significant number of gun-related homicides in the United States directly involve organized crime.

No. I didn't say organized crime, I just said criminals. Criminals can't take their disputes to court, they tend to settle them in blood.

Actually, most gun-related homicides stem from one (or more) of three factors:
1) Flaring tempers
2) Accidental discharge
3) Impaired judgement due to drugs or alcohol

People aren't shooting each other because we're an action-hero dystopia full of violent gangsters who solve their problems with bullets. People are shooting each other because it's easier than fighting (or, for that matter, than talking).

[Citation needed]

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Land per capita.

I kept reading this and was wondering what in the hell "laud per capita" was.

Wouldn't it be the amount of praise on a per-capita basis?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Guns are not THE problem, but they are A problem. So is the fear of the "other" that is a cornerstone of white supremacy. So is American Rugged Individualism and its myth of homesteaders on the prairie defending kith and kin with only a trusty Winchester and God's good grace. So is a type of libertarianism that tries to take Sociopathy and make it a legitimate political stance instead of what it is, a psychopathic personality disorder evidenced by behaviors that are antisocial, often criminal, and lacking in a sense of moral responsibility, empathy, or social conscience and connection.

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Laws based on the outlier events are usually bad laws.

Tell it to Australia.

Doesn't mean they'll listen. Their law didn't do any good.

http://johnrlott.blogspot.com/2012/08/some-notes-on-claims-about-australias.html

 

[Frikki]

Do you enjoy living in a country that has a murder rate like a third world country?

There´s a smart way and a stupid way to handle guns. Sweden also has a huge number of guns per person. Not as much as USA. But not far from it. And we´ve never had any mash shootings. What is it we do differently. We have very strict laws regarding how they are handled. You need a licence. And licences are revoked if you don´t behave. You´re also not allowed to transport weapons in built up areas in ways so that they can be used. Simple and cheap laws that fix the problem completely.

The Americans can keep their guns AND get rid of high homicide rates. They can have it both ways. They just chose to take the stupid route for some reason I don´t understand.

It´s pistols, murder with long guns are rare as hen´s teeth.

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Do you enjoy living in a country that has a murder rate like a third world country?

Stay out of the criminal underworld and we have a murder rate like yours.

Our murders are in the criminal underworld so you stupid point does not work. Just try to shape up and act like a first world country.