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Would you convict the leaker?

Don2 (Don1 Revised)

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If I were on a jury, I'd convict him. Too many private citizens were impacted...

HOWEVER, what about a hypothetical where Trump was the only tax info victim? I wouldn't convict the leaker because Trump said he was going to release the info to the country. As a citizen, he's part of the people promised to have the info and so would everyone else be such people.

I'd straight up tell the prosecutors or whomever I wouldn't convict the leaker. If I still ended up on the jury, I wouldn't convict him.

Would you find him guilty?
 
1. Who wants to hand Trump his next year of talking points and whines?
2. Would your decision be influenced by the accessibility of your name/address to every MAGA nutcase in the country?
3. Who are you to challenge the release or non-release of tax records of the world's most perfect human being (equal to, and in sexiness and wisdom, superior to, Jesus of Nazareth?)
 
If you break the law, you should suffer the consequences. I don't understand how the political ideology of the criminal or the victims plays into it. What Trump said about releasing his tax returns is not binding in any legal way. At least I don't think it is. If you are going to start prosecuting Presidents for breaking campaign promises, then you'll have to put pretty much all presidents behind bars.
 
1. Who wants to hand Trump his next year of talking points and whines?

He's always whining about something. If he didn't whine about this, he'd be whining about something else, probably more about something else, much more.

2. Would your decision be influenced by the accessibility of your name/address to every MAGA nutcase in the country?

Well, that's a good point. I'm not that concerned over myself but for sake of my family, I'd definitely reconsider not doing this.

If you break the law, you should suffer the consequences. I don't understand how the political ideology of the criminal or the victims plays into it.

It doesn't. I never made the argument it matters. I argued something else.

What Trump said about releasing his tax returns is not binding in any legal way. At least I don't think it is. If you are going to start prosecuting Presidents for breaking campaign promises, then you'll have to put pretty much all presidents behind bars.

That's an interesting point, but I am not sure anullment of a leaker's prosecution "by the people" whose interest were served because of a false promise made by an alleged victim is predicated upon the ability to prosecute the victim for a crime. Plus, this is about information which isn't the same as promisng everyone a pony. It's information the leaker had, was immoral for the alleged victim to hide, and easily transferable to the people.
 
If you break the law, you should suffer the consequences. I don't understand how the political ideology of the criminal or the victims plays into it. What Trump said about releasing his tax returns is not binding in any legal way. At least I don't think it is. If you are going to start prosecuting Presidents for breaking campaign promises, then you'll have to put pretty much all presidents behind bars.
^^^ This. 100% yes.
 
If you break the law, you should suffer the consequences.

What if the law is unjust or what if its particular application in a particular instance is unjust? Do you think that even when laws or the application of a law in an instance are unjust that the lawbreaker still ought to suffer the consequences of punishment for breaking the law? Do you think that there ought not be such a thing as prosecutorial or executive discretion in deciding not to prosecute for breaking the law? I ask because clearly this practice is in disagreement with what you wrote.

The thing here in the case of prosecutorial discretion is that the govt (a bunch of guys in suits with paperwork) purport to represent the people's interest. They make a case "the people vs so-and-so." What happens when it's not really about the people's interest but really the power structure maintaining its own power?

In history, there were jurors who refused to convict people while there were fugitive slave laws being broken. You are saying those jurors were wrong.

I don't understand how the political ideology of the criminal or the victims plays into it.

The political ideology or partisanship of the President shouldn't matter as to the hypothetical. If you want to change the hypothetical to Biden that would be okay, but it'd have to be a different Biden acting as Trump had acted, making claims he would give his tax info over and over, using excuses, having financial info to hide that was illegal he didn't want the electorate to know about or get close to, keeping secrets in order to undermine democracy. I would not convict a leaker of tax info for this hypothetical Bizarro Universe President Biden either.

What Trump said about releasing his tax returns is not binding in any legal way.

What is the reason that you think that this needs to be legally binding in order to make an argument that it would be unjust to convict a leaker? Let's suppose we are discussing leaking of something else, like, say, the Pentagon Papers. Would you say the government was obligated to release all classified documentation? The government would claim it was not legal for it to release information.

At least I don't think it is. If you are going to start prosecuting Presidents for breaking campaign promises, then you'll have to put pretty much all presidents behind bars.

The idea that it would be unfair to convict person A harshly for a crime thereby using a theory of jury nullification does not seem to necessarily logically imply a harsh conviction for person B. What makes you think that one necessarily logically follows from the other? For example, if we go back to the issue of fugitive slave laws, consider a juror might have refused to convict someone guilty of breaking such law. They may have also believed in the immorality of a slave owner related to the case, but there probably was most often no follow-up prosecution of the slave owner related to the case.
 
If you break the law, you should suffer the consequences. I don't understand how the political ideology of the criminal or the victims plays into it. What Trump said about releasing his tax returns is not binding in any legal way. At least I don't think it is. If you are going to start prosecuting Presidents for breaking campaign promises, then you'll have to put pretty much all presidents behind bars.
There is breaking the law for personal gain and then there is civil disobedience. I'd say the later deserves leniency, though not complete forgiveness.
 
What if someone shoots Donald Trump and kills him, then goes to court arguing justifiable homicide, citing the million excess deaths Trump caused and listing the heinous crimes Trump himself says he intends to commit?
Could you make the guilt/innocence determination if you were on the jury, without hearing all the evidence, just on the basis of opinion that ridding humanity of Trump is a good thing or a bad thing?
 
What if the law is unjust or what if its particular application in a particular instance is unjust?
That would raise questions. However, I don't think anyone could raise a good argument that this law is unjust.
If I was a judge or some kind of authority figure I would be willing to entertain the idea of justifying someone breaking the law (a good OR bad law) in pursuit of a greater good, particularly if it is a matter of national security or saving many lives. Like maybe speeding, followed by breaking & entering a secure building in order to defuse a nuclear bomb that's going to blow up in 19 minutes. But that's not what this is. Privacy of tax records is a good idea & a good law and is something that should be taken seriously, regardless of whether its Trump, Biden or Jeffrey Epstein. If Trump (or anyone) is suspected of going afoul of the US tax code, then let the IRS take care of it through an audit. Some rando IRS plebe should not be the decider in whose tax records to expose publicly.
 
What if someone shoots Donald Trump and kills him, then goes to court arguing justifiable homicide, citing the million excess deaths Trump caused and listing the heinous crimes Trump himself says he intends to commit?
Could you make the guilt/innocence determination if you were on the jury, without hearing all the evidence, just on the basis of opinion that ridding humanity of Trump is a good thing or a bad thing?

I plead the 5th.
Tom
 
This guy leaked tax records and gets five years. Trump tries to overthrow an election, and he says he is above the law. This is the difference between classes in America.
 
What if the law is unjust or what if its particular application in a particular instance is unjust?
That would raise questions. However, I don't think anyone could raise a good argument that this law is unjust.
Find the leaker guilty and award Orange Asshole one dollar in damages.

The reason I don't have a firm opinion is because I don't know what happened or why.
If the leaker believed that they were a whistleblower, pointing out how billionaires cheat the rest of us, that's one thing. If the leaker were selling the information for 6 figure payments, that's different.
Tom
 
What if the law is unjust or what if its particular application in a particular instance is unjust?
That would raise questions. However, I don't think anyone could raise a good argument that this law is unjust.

I don't think the particular law is unjust as a general rule, but instead I think it's unjust in the particular application to the special circumstances of actions and promises by Donald Trump. (or Bizarro Universe Biden). I had responded to thebeave's sentence with two exceptions because I thought his sentence was too much like a platitude, devoid of nuance. The latter exception (a law that is unjust in a particular instance) seems to have legal support in some ways, such as for example by prosecutorial discretion, executive discretion, clemency, or a pardon. The former exception (an unjust law) has analytical support when we do historical analysis of authoritarian regimes or similar. We don't have to Godwin the thread either to discuss this as we can discuss white supremacy in our own country. Consider non-violent civil rights activism prior to implementation of the Civil Rights Act. We might say trespassing generally is a just law. But then applying it to people based on race during this time not so much. Throw out the convictions. If a judge cannot handle it, let the jury throw it out. Are we not alleged to be a government of, for, and by the people? If justice fails at all levels of government, then wouldn't it be up to a jury as a last resort to uphold the justice?

I'll try to give a fictitious example next of considering a law generally good but in a particular instance, perhaps not so much. Stealing or thievery. It's generally wrong and illegal to steal money from someone. Right? But let's say you own a convenience store and often work the register as cashier. Let's also suppose you have in your employ, 9 other people.

A customer with little hands comes in one day. His name is Tonald Drump. He says he has the best system for winning bets on the game which seems legal. He says if you all pool your money together, he'll submit your money through the betting system and give you, your returns which likely will win. So you and the employees all cough up $10 each, pooled into $100. You give that to Tonald Drump. Then, he allegedly goes off and places a bet. You don't see him for a month and you ask him about the returns, how much you made or lost. He quickly exits the store saying he has to shampoo his cat. The same exact thing then happens every first of the month for 5 months in row...always saying he has to shampoo his cat.

Now in the meantime, you look into the bets placed and find out that you all had broken even and should have received the money a while ago. Now comes the 6th month. Tonald comes in to the store. He mistakenly thinks you are someone completely different. Let's say he thinks you are Nancy Pelosi for some reason. Next, he tries to buy a small bag of Cheetos. He goes through his pockets and finds a money clip of thousand dollar bills. He gives you a $1000 bill to pay for his Cheetos. He's already eating them, by the way, getting orange everywhere on himself. Next, you take $100 from the change you could have given him but give him the rest of the change. You take the $100 and split it among yourself and the employees because he owed you collectively $100.

He starts screaming that you just stole $100 from him. So he runs outside and calls the police. You admit that you took the money from him and they arrest you for stealing.

In court the judge says, "You can be an adequate cashier and commit bad acts. You should have taken Tonald to small claims court, not dished out justice yourself like a vigilante. What you did in targeting a customer was an attack on our free market economy.” Then, she throws the book at you, giving you 90 days in jail and a small fine.

I don't think application of the law would be fair in this instance.
 
I'll try to give a fictitious example next of considering a law generally good but in a particular instance, perhaps not so much. Stealing or thievery. It's generally wrong and illegal to steal money from someone. Right? But let's say you own a convenience store and often work the register as cashier. Let's also suppose you have in your employ, 9 other people.

A customer with little hands comes in one day. His name is Tonald Drump. He says he has the best system for winning bets on the game which seems legal. He says if you all pool your money together, he'll submit your money through the betting system and give you, your returns which likely will win. So you and the employees all cough up $10 each, pooled into $100. You give that to Tonald Drump. Then, he allegedly goes off and places a bet. You don't see him for a month and you ask him about the returns, how much you made or lost. He quickly exits the store saying he has to shampoo his cat. The same exact thing then happens every first of the month for 5 months in row...always saying he has to shampoo his cat.

Now in the meantime, you look into the bets placed and find out that you all had broken even and should have received the money a while ago. Now comes the 6th month. Tonald comes in to the store. He mistakenly thinks you are someone completely different. Let's say he thinks you are Nancy Pelosi for some reason. Next, he tries to buy a small bag of Cheetos. He goes through his pockets and finds a money clip of thousand dollar bills. He gives you a $1000 bill to pay for his Cheetos. He's already eating them, by the way, getting orange everywhere on himself. Next, you take $100 from the change you could have given him but give him the rest of the change. You take the $100 and split it among yourself and the employees because he owed you collectively $100.

He starts screaming that you just stole $100 from him. So he runs outside and calls the police. You admit that you took the money from him and they arrest you for stealing.

In court the judge says, "You can be an adequate cashier and commit bad acts. You should have taken Tonald to small claims court, not dished out justice yourself like a vigilante. What you did in targeting a customer was an attack on our free market economy.” Then, she throws the book at you, giving you 90 days in jail and a small fine.

I don't think application of the law would be fair in this instance.
That's the exact scenario that finally got OJ Simpson jail time.
 
There are times that breaking the law is appropriate. Mostly it comes down to emergencies. I am more liberal than the law in terms of self-defense, the law automatically assumes that time means an ability to get help instead but I do not think that's always the case. If the person has a reasonable belief that getting help is impossible I'd be willing to listen to a non-imminent self defense case.

I also will in general not object to people breaking an unjust/unconstitutional/unclear (think of the Texas abortion bans--they're obviously designed to be vague enough a doctor generally can't decide if a case qualifies) law to challenge it. (Although I would like there to be a system where people can put up a substantial bond to bring a hypothetical case to challenge an unjust law directly or by nullification. Nobody actually making the decisions knows that it's hypothetical.)

However, I do not see that either of these applies to a situation like this.
 
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