Would you prefer if a benevolent god existed?

[Brian63]

Currently I am watching a video interview of Jon Steingard, the former singer of the Christian band Hawk Nelson but recently came out as a nonbeliever. He has written or said at times that he is hopeful that a benevolent god exists, and I find that interesting.

I very confidently believe that no supernatural god exists of any kind. The world makes so much more sense to me if there is no such thing, and the fact that the world makes so much more sense is very satisfying and comforting and appealing to me.

What about the alternative though? Suppose there actually is a completely benevolent god who does exist and does indeed act in mysterious ways to benefit humans and other animals, even if those ways make no sense and are completely incomprehensible to you (or me). Would you (or I) prefer that?



Which of those 2 scenarios would be more appealing?

The existence of a benevolent god that somehow and confusingly rectifies all suffering, or the non-existence of such a being but instead the existence of a universe that is more comprehensible?

I think I would opt for the former and sacrifice the latter. The latter just seems so much more obviously true, however.

 

[ruby sparks]

Yes, a benevolent god would be great.

 

[rousseau]

It's a bit of a strange question to answer because I can't imagine how a benevolent God would actually work in practice. What would a world look like without suffering? Is that possible? If it's not actually possible the question can't really be answered.

 

[skepticalbip]

Would you prefer if a benevolent god existed?

There are lots of things I would prefer to what reality offers.
.. Rather than having to buy food, store food, and prepare meals, I would prefer to have no pantries, refrigerator, stove, etc. and be able to sit down at the table and a fully prepared meal just appeared.
.. Rather than having to buy and maintain an auto, I would prefer to just imagine where I wanted to be and I'd be there.
.. etc.

I enjoy trying to understand the mysteries of the universe. Once a mystery is solved then the challenge is gone. Such 'magic' would be the ultimate brain twister.

 

[ruby sparks]

It's a bit of a strange question to answer because I can't imagine how a benevolent God would actually work in practice. What would a world look like without suffering? Is that possible? If it's not actually possible the question can't really be answered.

A benevolent god wouldn't necessarily mean a world without suffering. It would depend on the extent of their abilities. The ancient Greek gods, for example, were not omnipotent (or omniscient).

So it would be more like having a parent who loved you unconditionally and wanted the best for you and did whatever they could when possible, as best they could. And they would have to try to do it as fairly as they could for everyone, similar to a loving parent who has many children with sometimes competing needs, wishes, desires and behaviours.

 

[Brian63]

It's a bit of a strange question to answer because I can't imagine how a benevolent God would actually work in practice. What would a world look like without suffering? Is that possible? If it's not actually possible the question can't really be answered.

I think it would be helpful to look at the suffering and consider if it is actually an illusion. Maybe nobody is really suffering at all, but you are given the impression (by a god) that people and animals are because of some impact it would have on you. Spark an interest in you to be more charitable and generous, for instance. Whatever sorrow you temporarily feel by witnessing the (supposed) suffering of others will be more than made up for by joy you will experience at a later point, in some other way that you simply do not understand right now.

If we apply Occam's razor there is no sense in treating the world as if that were the case. It confuses more than clarifies.

But I would still prefer that, even if it is completely confusing to me. I would be more willing to live in a world that made no sense at all but somehow turned out the best overall, in comparison to one that was more sensible to me (and indifferent to human welfare).


ETA: Similarly, as children we can be punished by parents or teachers or such for behaving in a certain way. We can think we are being mistreated, but really those adults knew better than we did what was best overall. So we could think of a benevolent god in a semi-analogous way. We think of it as being cruel, but it really just knows better than we do.

 

[ruby sparks]

I think it would be helpful to look at the suffering and consider if it is actually an illusion.

I think there's definitely suffering.

 

[rousseau]

It's a bit of a strange question to answer because I can't imagine how a benevolent God would actually work in practice. What would a world look like without suffering? Is that possible? If it's not actually possible the question can't really be answered.

A benevolent god wouldn't necessarily mean a world without suffering. It would depend on the extent of their abilities. The ancient Greek gods, for example, were not omnipotent (or omniscient).

So it would be more like having a parent who loved you unconditionally and wanted the best for you and did whatever they could, as best they could. And they would have to try to do it as fairly as they could everyone, similar to a loving parent who has many children with sometimes competing needs.

Even still, if there is a benevolent God who just wants the best for you, but who is benevolent towards everyone, how does that work in a world where everyone's interests are in conflict? This is why I have a hard time answering the question. In a fantasy world where everything goes well, sure, that'd be great. But such a world is untenable in practice, so when you say you want a benevolent God what does that actually mean? How can I want that when I have absolutely no idea what it means?

It strikes me as like asking if you would enjoy the taste of a food that doesn't exist, but presumably tastes good.

 

[ruby sparks]

Even still, if there is a benevolent God who just wants the best for you, but who is benevolent towards everyone, how does that work in a world where everyone's interests are in conflict?

I used the analogy of a loving parent with many children.

It strikes me as like asking if you would enjoy the taste of a food that doesn't exist, but presumably tastes good.

Yes. And all it's asking is would you like such a food to exist?

 

[ruby sparks]

Ah. My bad. OP included removing all suffering. Whoops.

That's a bit trickier. I would definitely say I'd like it though. As to how it could be done, that wouldn't be my problem. It'd be a bit like how my mobile phone works.

 

[rousseau]

If the question is would I rather be deluded and believe in a benevolent God, or not believe but live in a world that made sense - I'd definitely say the latter. The world is far more interesting and appealing knowing it's mechanics.

 

[Brian63]

I think it would be helpful to look at the suffering and consider if it is actually an illusion.

I think there's definitely suffering.

Me too.

Just entertaining the possibility of otherwise. Suffering is actually an illusion, and what we think is definitely true, we actually are completely wrong about.

It has been years since I have seen the Matrix movies, but that may be a similar analogy. Suffering does not exist in the Matrix, does it?

 

[ruby sparks]

I think it would be helpful to look at the suffering and consider if it is actually an illusion.

I think there's definitely suffering.

Me too.

Just entertaining the possibility of otherwise. Suffering is actually an illusion, and what we think is definitely true, we actually are completely wrong about.

Well, I think you're more asking would the suffering be worthwhile. So we would suffer, but it would be in our best interests in the long run. I could see a case for that sort of suffering.

 

[rousseau]

Yes. And all it's asking is would you like such a food to exist?

Right, but what I'm saying is that coming from the standpoint of a non-believer I can't conceive of such a thing being possible so I can't really have an opinion on it, it's kind of a paradox.

 

[ruby sparks]

If the question is would I rather be deluded and believe in a benevolent God, or not believe but live in a world that made sense - I'd definitely say the latter.

That's not the question though.

 

[ruby sparks]

Yes. And all it's asking is would you like such a food to exist?

Right, but what I'm saying is that coming from the standpoint of a non-believer I can't conceive of such a thing being possible so I can't really have an opinion on it, it's kind of a paradox.

I think you could have an opinion on it very easily, just by using your imagination and treating it as a hypothetical. Think of it a bit like a truly benevolent Santa really existing maybe (and that he brings presents, things people would like, to adults too, and this Santa would bring them even if they weren't good).

 

[Brian63]

Well, I think you're more asking would the suffering be worthwhile. So we would suffer, but it would be in our best interests in the long run. I could see a case for that sort of suffering.

More than that. We do not know that we are anything more than a brain in a vat. We cannot know with absolute epistemological certainty that anyone outside of us actually does exist, and ever does suffer. We may observe what we think are other people and animals suffering, but that is an illusion. We do not know that they actually are suffering. They could be having a really great time for all we know, but their facial expressions and body reactions indicate to us otherwise (because we misread them). Or, again, nobody else besides ourselves actually exists.

We can only know that we ourselves are suffering.

 

[ruby sparks]

More than that. We do not know that we are anything more than a brain in a vat. We cannot know with absolute epistemological certainty that anyone outside of us actually does exist, and ever does suffer. We may observe what we think are other people and animals suffering, but that is an illusion. We do not know that they actually are suffering. They could be having a really great time for all we know, but their facial expressions and body reactions indicate to us otherwise (because we misread them). Or, again, nobody else besides ourselves actually exists.

We can only know that we ourselves are suffering.

I have a feeling you're taking this in a slightly different direction.

How about, I would like it if there was a benevolent god, that could take away suffering, whether it's only me that suffers or it's other people too?

 

[Brian63]

I have a feeling you're taking this in a slightly different direction.

Not really. Christian apologists often try to rationalize the existence of hell and the eternal torment of souls by saying it is a matter of "justice." There HAS to be a heaven and a hell. If God is good, then God MUST ensure some people spend all eternity in hell (those who deserve to be).

That makes absolutely no sense to me at all for a hundred or so reasons. But what if they actually are right, and I am wrong? That a benevolent god would indeed ensure that some people suffer for all eternity? Anything different from that scenario would be of less overall good.

That scenario again makes no sense to me, but if it somehow was true, I would prefer that. Having the world make sense is a great feeling, but would be a secondary priority to a world that was the best overall (as determined by a benevolent omni-god).

 

[Brian63]

If the question is would I rather be deluded and believe in a benevolent God, or not believe but live in a world that made sense - I'd definitely say the latter. The world is far more interesting and appealing knowing it's mechanics.

How about if you were not deluded---that there actually does exist a benevolent God? You cannot just square the existence of such a thing with anything you currently understand about how the world works? Nothing about the universe makes sense anymore, if there is a benevolent God.

Versus...

The mechanics of the universe do make more sense to you if you believe there is not a benevolent God pulling the strings. But at the same time, the universe is indifferent and lethal and suffering exists which will never be remedied in any fashion.