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Your take on Buddhist liberation

The more I think about it, I think this awareness is exactly what the ancients had in mind. What throws me off is that if you read The Blue Cliff Record, the language is presented in a way to suggest that we can quite literally eliminate desire and concern completely. But from their perspective, the ability you're describing (to dissociate) would feel profound, and it would feel like they actually were eliminating desire. Couple that with people's affinity for mysticism and the result is an elaborate Buddhist history. So maybe it's really a question of interpretation: are we really eliminating desire, or just understanding how to see beyond it? In practice, the ancients were doing the latter, but they called it the former.

And my understanding is that there is Buddhist scripture which explains that some level of desire is normal, which maybe points to their awareness that we're not really 'transcending' desire. We're just seeing and interacting with the world in a more effective way.
What makes me reluctant to think they were saying the same basic thing as later Mahayanists is their emphasis on gradual progress towards "enlightenment" across not one but many lifetimes. They must have felt they were "eliminating desires" and "stopping thinking" when meditating. So apparently they thought "if we meditate for hours a day for real long time we'll eventually reach these [outrageously idealistic] goals." The "sudden awakening" advocates seemed to be trying to improve on that "gradual awakening" POV.
 
The more I think about it, I think this awareness is exactly what the ancients had in mind. What throws me off is that if you read The Blue Cliff Record, the language is presented in a way to suggest that we can quite literally eliminate desire and concern completely. But from their perspective, the ability you're describing (to dissociate) would feel profound, and it would feel like they actually were eliminating desire. Couple that with people's affinity for mysticism and the result is an elaborate Buddhist history. So maybe it's really a question of interpretation: are we really eliminating desire, or just understanding how to see beyond it? In practice, the ancients were doing the latter, but they called it the former.

And my understanding is that there is Buddhist scripture which explains that some level of desire is normal, which maybe points to their awareness that we're not really 'transcending' desire. We're just seeing and interacting with the world in a more effective way.
What makes me reluctant to think they were saying the same basic thing as later Mahayanists is their emphasis on gradual progress towards "enlightenment" across not one but many lifetimes. They must have felt they were "eliminating desires" and "stopping thinking" when meditating. So apparently they thought "if we meditate for hours a day for real long time we'll eventually reach these [outrageously idealistic] goals." The "sudden awakening" advocates seemed to be trying to improve on that "gradual awakening" POV.

I guess when I'm saying 'ancients' I'm incorrectly sweeping the Mahayanists up into it, with a helping of Zen bias. I tend to think of a delineation between ancient/medieval Buddhism and the more modern forms, but I guess a lot did happen between 500 B.C. and 1500 A.D, which you're alluding to.

My own experience with Buddhism is that there is definitely a something there now, that wasn't there before I started studying it. And this something is likely the experience that the range of Buddhists back then were referring to, from early, early Buddhism to later Zen. But in a scientific era I think you're going to interpret that experience with less mysticism, at least some will. I still see a lot of people online who buy into the magic.
 
A term I saw several time in Buddhism was 'being fully awake'.

Which I interpreted to mean most people are in a dream like state, or as in The Matrix', unaware of what they are immersed in and why they do what they do.
 
A term I saw several time in Buddhism was 'being fully awake'.

Which I interpreted to mean most people are in a dream like state, or as in The Matrix', unaware of what they are immersed in and why they do what they do.

This is why I spend my time at IIDB and not hanging out with people my age. :)
 
Wow, I mean like what is reality? Am I a coma dreaming?

Is enlightenment a myth with no substance?

Something I heard 'Before enlightenment get up and go to work. After enlightenment get up and go to work'.

Ok I am aware, enlivened and have ep[experienced the highest of hihgs, but what the hell do I do now?
 
@steve_bank here's some text to spice up your afternoon:

From Visions of Order by Richard weaver (bolding mine)

But in a further view, there is more than one way of being outside a culture…

There is another type of outsider, however, who may entertain hope of doing something about a culture that is weakening. He is a member of the culture who has to some degree estranged himself from it through study and reflection. He is like the savant in society; though in it, he is not wholly of it; he has acquired knowledge and developed habits of thought which enable him to see it in perspective and to gauge it. He has not lost the intuitive understanding which belongs to him as a member, but he has added something to that.

A temporary alienation from his culture may be followed by an intense preoccupation with it, but on a more reflective level than that of the typical member. He has become sufficiently aware of what is outside it to see it as a system or an entity. This person may be a kind of doctor of culture; in one way he is crippled by his objectivity, but in another way he is helped to what he must have, a point of view and a consciousness of freedom of movement.

It has been observed, to cite a kind of parallel, that nearly all of the leaders of strong nationalistic movements in the present age were men who had some type of “outside” experience in their rearing or their education. They were men who knew their nations from the inside, but who had also seen them from a vantage point elsewhere. Thus it was with Parnell and Ireland, with Sun Yat-sen and China, with Hitler and Germany, with Gandhi and India. Even Franco is a “Gallego”- not a Spaniard in the true sense.

These men had all at one time been far enough removed from their future nations to see what these were, and what they saw engendered in them an urge to define the reality and the consciousness of that nationhood. Although they were ‘doctors’’ of nationalism rather than ‘doctors’ of culture, their case shows enough analogy to provide guiding points here…

For diagnostic and remedial work we may have to turn to those who have in a way mutilated themselves by withdrawal, by a special kind of mental discipline, and by the kind of fixation upon a task which even impedes free cultural participation. We may therefore regard it as no anomaly, but rather as an understandable event, if a person not conspicuously cultured himself should discern what is impairing the health of a culture. Thus it is not the person who has contributed most to a culture who will necessarily have the most useful things to say when the culture shows signs of dissolution…

The claim of culture as such to exist is best explained through its genesis. Man is a special creature in the respect that he has to live with two selves. One of these is his existential part, his simple animal being, which breathes and moves and nourishes itself. This is man without qualification or adornment, an organism living in an environment. In this existence he is a very predictable animal, or would be except that the second self can have effects upon his somatic appearance and behavior.”
 
I've been studying Buddhism and Zen Buddhism for about five years now. In that time I've read the likes of D.T. Suzuki, Alan Watts, Dogen, and The Blue Cliff Record. So I'm starting to get a sense of what Buddhism is about when you get into the depths of it. But I'm confused about the concept of liberation.

Early Buddhists believed that total liberation was possible, but to my eye many of their methods look like a modern mindfulness technique. In a nut-shell: understanding what the world is, understanding what I am, and accepting the world as it is. No doubt very helpful ideas and philosophy but .. liberation? Is it real? Is it possible?

As far as I can gather Buddhism lays a sheath of mysticism over the natural world, and helps adherents find it bearable. But we still have real, material problems that don't go away.

What do you think?
What do you think liberation is? I mean in the way it is presented in the Buddhist texts? How do they describe it?
 
I've been studying Buddhism and Zen Buddhism for about five years now. In that time I've read the likes of D.T. Suzuki, Alan Watts, Dogen, and The Blue Cliff Record. So I'm starting to get a sense of what Buddhism is about when you get into the depths of it. But I'm confused about the concept of liberation.

Early Buddhists believed that total liberation was possible, but to my eye many of their methods look like a modern mindfulness technique. In a nut-shell: understanding what the world is, understanding what I am, and accepting the world as it is. No doubt very helpful ideas and philosophy but .. liberation? Is it real? Is it possible?

As far as I can gather Buddhism lays a sheath of mysticism over the natural world, and helps adherents find it bearable. But we still have real, material problems that don't go away.

What do you think?
What do you think liberation is? I mean in the way it is presented in the Buddhist texts? How do they describe it?

Some of the follow up posts should outline where this landed.
 
What comes after enlightenment? One path is endless pursuit of the ritual of theological debate and quoting and interpretation. Not appealing to me.

Or you ca meditate and dwell in a perpetual narcotic like state of being. Not appealing eitherr, escapism.

Get up in the morning and face reality and get on with living.
 
I don't think of it as enlightenment, it's just more knowledge and awareness on the pile. At the end of the day Taoism and Buddhism are guides, and very effective ones. I'm measurably better at my job, a better partner, and a better parent because of reading this stuff. Knowledge is privilege as well, you get access to a view of the world that many will never have.

When I was in my teens and twenties I remember feeling incompetent at so many things, and that other people were more socially in tune than me. I wanted to figure out how I was supposed to be. I think Buddhism and Taoism offer that answer.
 
What comes after enlightenment? One path is endless pursuit of the ritual of theological debate and quoting and interpretation. Not appealing to me.

Or you ca meditate and dwell in a perpetual narcotic like state of being. Not appealing eitherr, escapism.

Get up in the morning and face reality and get on with living.

To add to this, the main issue I find at this point in my life isn't in what I know, it's what others around me don't know. If your head is filled with interesting ideas and concepts, and you have no one you can relate to about them, it's isolating. And it's not just philosophy, it's everything you've learned.

I have an old friend nearby who did a philosophy degree. Unsurprisingly, I really enjoy talking to him. When I'm around very close acquaintances and family it's not difficult to feel alone.

'Education is the mourning of ignorance'
 
What do you think liberation is? I mean in the way it is presented in the Buddhist texts? How do they describe it?
Liberation is the attainment of knowledge that frees us from the bonds of material life. With liberation you attain the status of the Buddha.
What comes after enlightenment?
This is not clear. Perhaps one merges with the universal consciousness and loses one's personal identity. That is how I have had it explained to me by a monk in Bhutan.
 
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