"Classical Liberals"

[Hermit]

Have you ever wondered why starting blocks for longer foot races on ovals are staggered?

To ensure equality of opportunity by having each lane be the same length.
It is not there to ensure equality of outcomes aka "equity".

Exactly! Creating a level playing field ensures equality of opportunity. It does not ensure equality of outcomes, nor is it meant to.

The problem comes when inequality of outcome is used as proof of inequality of opportunity.

Inequality of opportunity is statistically linked with inequality of outcome, and not just in the field of education.

Which does not prove inequality of outcome is caused by inequality of opportunity. Nor does it prove that inequality of opportunity is caused by factors under government control.

Yeah, sure. It's all just an amazing coincidence ... or the blacks are to blame for their misfortune. Lazy bastards lacking ambition.

 

[Derec]

OK, so just drop the idea of creating level playing fields, right?

What is a "level playing field" analogy all about anyway? I do not think it properly applies to disadvantaging individuals from a certain group just because members of that group

Look at the metaphor itself. In sports, we do not tilt the field to help certain teams/athletes just to achieve some sort of "equitable" outcome. Level field is level field - no matter the history of each team or history of other teams that share some attributes with the teams in question.

What affirmative action ends up being in practice:

 

[Derec]

Yeah, sure. It's all just an amazing coincidence ... or the blacks are to blame for their misfortune. Lazy bastards lacking ambition.

If any disparate outcome can only be due to discrimination, do you also advocate "affirmative action" for the NBA?
The NBA is a highly inequitable league, with white and Asian players severely underrepresented.

 

[SigmatheZeta]

Not only is that wrong, but completely unresponsive to the issue of inherited guilt and its relationship to AA.

Our Constitution prohibits inherited guilt.

That's hardly shocking for a document outlining how a nation of slaveowners and their property would be constituted.

The thirteenth, fourteenth and fifteenth afterthoughts notwithstanding, it's hardly an exemplar of the moral treatment of all humans, and was certainly written with the idea in mind that some humans in the USA didn't count as people. Maybe 3/5 of a person.

Actually, the Three Fifths Compromise was intended to give an additional three fifths of a vote to the person that owned the slaves. That was the primary mistake by the states that demanded it, actually: they turned slavery into a sort of political addiction. If you look at how that played out over the course of half a century, it's easy to see how one misguided law can cause so much political confusion, and we are still trying to shake off the political chaos that resulted from it.

Georgia seems to be bidding fair to shake it off.

 

[SigmatheZeta]

Have you ever wondered why starting blocks for longer foot races on ovals are staggered?

To ensure equality of opportunity by having each lane be the same length.
It is not there to ensure equality of outcomes aka "equity".

Exactly! Creating a level playing field ensures equality of opportunity. It does not ensure equality of outcomes, nor is it meant to.

The problem comes when inequality of outcome is used as proof of inequality of opportunity.

Inequality of opportunity is statistically linked with inequality of outcome, and not just in the field of education.

Which does not prove inequality of outcome is caused by inequality of opportunity. Nor does it prove that inequality of opportunity is caused by factors under government control.

Yeah, sure. It's all just an amazing coincidence ... or the blacks are to blame for their misfortune. Lazy bastards lacking ambition.

I think that a lot could be done through socio-economically integrated schooling, which could help to promote social diffusion and also to disperse rather than concentrate dysfunctional thinking. I believe that VP Kamala Harris is almost a perfect poster child for this strategy. I think that Kamala Harris exemplifies the benefits of busing. I think it is a fantastic system.

As a white person, it would still benefit me, in the long-term, even though it might not benefit me as much, in the short-term. For example, there was relatively little knowledge about LGBT issues among African-Americans in the 1990's, and that minority actually had some of the most entrenched homophobia and transphobia in the nation. LGBT rights was a "rich white people's cause," at the time. By making sure that people were bused across districts, it was possible for more forward-thinking ideas about social justice to be transmitted across demographics, and now that they understand how similar the cause of LGBT equality is to their own, they are actually exercising leadership in the support of LGBT equality.

I think that mixing the pot is really a necessary part of progress.

 

[laughing dog]

So-called social justice is often opposed to actual justice because the latter is supposed to seek justice on an individual level, while "social justice" concerns itself with groups.

This is the fundamental difference.

Groups don't actually exist (harming Peter to help Paul doesn't produce any justice), it should be about individuals.

It is counterfactual to claim groups do not actually exist. Do you mean that groups should not matter?

The basic problem is the victims and the beneficiaries are different people. Lumping them together by some arbitrary characteristic (skin color) doesn't a group make. AA provides no redress to any victim of discrimination.

Worse, it tells newborn children of group A that they should have grievance against newborn children of group B. What result?

How do you come up with such inanity?

You apparently believe in inherited guilt.

That inane strawman does not answer my question unless you are claiming you have a genetic predisposition to inanities.

Please explain why that’s a good thing.

I don’t know why anyone would think that nor why anyone thinks it has anything to do with AA.

It is you, not me, who seems to advocate that skin hue should determine privileges in society. The rest us say treat everyone as individuals.

Not only is that wrong, but completely unresponsive to the issue of inherited guilt and its relationship to AA.

AA treats people differently because of the color of their skin. But you knew that.

Still waiting to you to connect how what the fuck that has to do with inherited guilt. And then add how AA determines privilege in society.

Que pasa? AA treats people differently based on skin color and you don't think that has anything to do with inherited guilt or societal privilege?

There is no logical reason that AA is caused or causes inherited guilt that I can see. Apparently neither do you, since you have been unable to come up with an explanation after 2 days.

There is no necessary connection between AA and societal privilege that I can see. I have asked for one, and you have yet to come with one. To be fair, you've only less time to provide a rational explanation for your alleged connection.

Do you understand that without explanation, your claims appear to be rather fanciful?

 

[laughing dog]

Yeah, sure. It's all just an amazing coincidence ... or the blacks are to blame for their misfortune. Lazy bastards lacking ambition.

If any disparate outcome can only be due to discrimination, do you also advocate "affirmative action" for the NBA?

Your premise (the underlined part) is a straw man. Disparate outcome may be evidence of discrimination or some sort of unfairness - it suggests further investigation of the causes.

The NBA is a highly inequitable league, with white and Asian players severely underrepresented.

It is true that the racial proportions of the NBA players are skewed compared to the general population. That is almost always been true in the NBA. Of course, in its early years, it was due to discrimination against players of color.

Is there reason to believe that current NBA teams do discriminate against white and Asian basketball players as opposed to basing their hiring and playing decisions on basketball skill and salary?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Have you ever wondered why starting blocks for longer foot races on ovals are staggered?

To ensure equality of opportunity by having each lane be the same length.
It is not there to ensure equality of outcomes aka "equity".

Exactly! Creating a level playing field ensures equality of opportunity. It does not ensure equality of outcomes, nor is it meant to.

The problem comes when inequality of outcome is used as proof of inequality of opportunity.

Inequality of opportunity is statistically linked with inequality of outcome, and not just in the field of education.

Which does not prove inequality of outcome is caused by inequality of opportunity. Nor does it prove that inequality of opportunity is caused by factors under government control.

Some of the inequality of opportunity is feeding inequality of outcome. Do you really think I would be where and what I am today if I had stayed in a pit of squalor? No! I would be DEAD! Or brain damaged. Or abused like my brother was.

I would have been a broken, drooling husk... Or something far more dangerous and evil.

That opportunity, for me as an adoptable infant, was provided specifically because of government intervention and child protective services. Which is a factor under government control.

I have at least one data point that says you are wrong.

Many other kids avoided similar fates because at least the government lifted them up a little.

The issue is inequality of opportunity for groups, not one infant in a bad situation.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

The beneficiaries are not the victims.

Nonsense.

Who?

The one getting an advantage in college and medical school admissions haven't been denied admissions previously.

So?

Don't say "blacks"--that's a group.

So?

In other words, you have no defense.

On the contrary, your claim that benefiaries of AA are not necessarily victims of racism is idiotic.

How can you both be admitted by your race and yet not admitted because of your race?

 

[laughing dog]

The beneficiaries are not the victims.

Nonsense.

Who?

The one getting an advantage in college and medical school admissions haven't been denied admissions previously.

So?

Don't say "blacks"--that's a group.

So?

In other words, you have no defense.

On the contrary, your claim that benefiaries of AA are not necessarily victims of racism is idiotic.

How can you both be admitted by your race and yet not admitted because of your race?

Because of the sound of one hand clapping?

If you think about, my response makes more sense than your question, which is not setting the bar very high.

 

[Trausti]

Is there reason to believe that current NBA teams do discriminate against white and Asian basketball players as opposed to basing their hiring and playing decisions on basketball skill and salary?

If the NBA did set racial quotas irrespective of talent, you'd presumably be okay with that.

 

[SigmatheZeta]

We could fix just about every social ill whatsoever with a steep progressive tax, compulsory busing, and a large investment in improvements to the education system.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Yeah, sure. It's all just an amazing coincidence ... or the blacks are to blame for their misfortune. Lazy bastards lacking ambition.

If any disparate outcome can only be due to discrimination, do you also advocate "affirmative action" for the NBA?

Your premise (the underlined part) is a straw man. Disparate outcome may be evidence of discrimination or some sort of unfairness - it suggests further investigation of the causes.

Except they make no further investigation.

 

[Trausti]

Yeah, sure. It's all just an amazing coincidence ... or the blacks are to blame for their misfortune. Lazy bastards lacking ambition.

If any disparate outcome can only be due to discrimination, do you also advocate "affirmative action" for the NBA?

Your premise (the underlined part) is a straw man. Disparate outcome may be evidence of discrimination or some sort of unfairness - it suggests further investigation of the causes.

Except they make no further investigation.

Exactly. If you suggest objectively examining the disparate outcome abstraction, you'll be called all sorts of names. Religion is like that.

 

[Jarhyn]

Have you ever wondered why starting blocks for longer foot races on ovals are staggered?

To ensure equality of opportunity by having each lane be the same length.
It is not there to ensure equality of outcomes aka "equity".

Exactly! Creating a level playing field ensures equality of opportunity. It does not ensure equality of outcomes, nor is it meant to.

The problem comes when inequality of outcome is used as proof of inequality of opportunity.

Inequality of opportunity is statistically linked with inequality of outcome, and not just in the field of education.

Which does not prove inequality of outcome is caused by inequality of opportunity. Nor does it prove that inequality of opportunity is caused by factors under government control.

Some of the inequality of opportunity is feeding inequality of outcome. Do you really think I would be where and what I am today if I had stayed in a pit of squalor? No! I would be DEAD! Or brain damaged. Or abused like my brother was.

I would have been a broken, drooling husk... Or something far more dangerous and evil.

That opportunity, for me as an adoptable infant, was provided specifically because of government intervention and child protective services. Which is a factor under government control.

I have at least one data point that says you are wrong.

Many other kids avoided similar fates because at least the government lifted them up a little.

The issue is inequality of opportunity for groups, not one infant in a bad situation.

What group do you think that infant was? They were fucking POOR! That is inequality of opportunity. That is the driver of a lot of inequalities of outcome.

And the fact is there's a segment of the population that is not just poor, but typically lacks adjacency to any family or friends who are anything but poor.

They are one bad decision, one bad accident, one bad health turn from the drain, and NOBODY is there to pull them out.

And moreover, our society created that by design.

We need to undo the design.

 

[laughing dog]

Yeah, sure. It's all just an amazing coincidence ... or the blacks are to blame for their misfortune. Lazy bastards lacking ambition.

If any disparate outcome can only be due to discrimination, do you also advocate "affirmative action" for the NBA?

Your premise (the underlined part) is a straw man. Disparate outcome may be evidence of discrimination or some sort of unfairness - it suggests further investigation of the causes.

Except they make no further investigation.

Who are these "they" you are talking about?

 

[laughing dog]

Is there reason to believe that current NBA teams do discriminate against white and Asian basketball players as opposed to basing their hiring and playing decisions on basketball skill and salary?

If the NBA did set racial quotas irrespective of talent, you'd presumably be okay with that.

Your ability to fling these straw men out is a true testament to your kneejerk ideology.

When properly done, AA is not about disregarding ability or talent.

 

[Trausti]

Is there reason to believe that current NBA teams do discriminate against white and Asian basketball players as opposed to basing their hiring and playing decisions on basketball skill and salary?

If the NBA did set racial quotas irrespective of talent, you'd presumably be okay with that.

How did society get so stupid?

Yeah, people who reject objective measures and instead cling to nebulous abstractions are not very smart. What to do?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Is there reason to believe that current NBA teams do discriminate against white and Asian basketball players as opposed to basing their hiring and playing decisions on basketball skill and salary?

If the NBA did set racial quotas irrespective of talent, you'd presumably be okay with that.

Your ability to fling these straw men out is a true testament to your kneejerk ideology.

When properly done, AA is not about disregarding ability or talent.

That's the leftist fantasy of good AA. It's not the reality of what happens.

 

[laughing dog]

Is there reason to believe that current NBA teams do discriminate against white and Asian basketball players as opposed to basing their hiring and playing decisions on basketball skill and salary?

If the NBA did set racial quotas irrespective of talent, you'd presumably be okay with that.

Your ability to fling these straw men out is a true testament to your kneejerk ideology.

When properly done, AA is not about disregarding ability or talent.

That's the leftist fantasy of good AA. It's not the reality of what happens.

Saying that is so does not make true.