• Welcome to the new Internet Infidels Discussion Board, formerly Talk Freethought.

"Classical Liberals"

My personal opinion is that people are starting to claim to be classical liberals because they’re starting to catch on that a whole bunch of right wing nut jobs have given conservatives a bad name.
In my experience most conservatives claim to have liberal views, and in so far as they argue in favour rights and freedoms of individuals, as well as their autonomy, that is classical liberalism. Earlier in this thread I argued that classical liberalism was a progressive force at the time when it opposed formal privileges determined by birth and divine right that were in effect, but now it is a conservative one because it resists going beyond the point it has fought for and largely achieved in some countries: equality before the law for everyone.
 
My personal opinion is that people are starting to claim to be classical liberals because they’re starting to catch on that a whole bunch of right wing nut jobs have given conservatives a bad name.
In my experience most conservatives claim to have liberal views, and in so far as they argue in favour rights and freedoms of individuals, as well as their autonomy, that is classical liberalism. Earlier in this thread I argued that classical liberalism was a progressive force at the time when it opposed formal privileges determined by birth and divine right that were in effect, but now it is a conservative one because it resists going beyond the point it has fought for and largely achieved in some countries: equality before the law for everyone.
I think you give some people a lot more credit than I do.
 
My personal opinion is that people are starting to claim to be classical liberals because they’re starting to catch on that a whole bunch of right wing nut jobs have given conservatives a bad name.
In my experience most conservatives claim to have liberal views, and in so far as they argue in favour rights and freedoms of individuals, as well as their autonomy, that is classical liberalism. Earlier in this thread I argued that classical liberalism was a progressive force at the time when it opposed formal privileges determined by birth and divine right that were in effect, but now it is a conservative one because it resists going beyond the point it has fought for and largely achieved in some countries: equality before the law for everyone.
I think you give some people a lot more credit than I do.
Ya think what? :wink:
 
An odd phenomenon I have encountered lately is that people who seem to be pressing for an eradication of social justice politics and a dismissal of critical conversations about history, gender, race, and other controversial issues have started self identifying as "liberals" or "classic liberals". Who started this, and what is it actually supposed to mean? Where and when did this classical age of liberalism occur, and is there some reason should we be fighting to reconstruct that age? What would a classically liberal society look like? When and why did "liberal" go from being an implied slur on conservative media to being a label of choice for the PragerU crowd?
It goes back to a now-dated disagreement between the British Liberal Party and the British Labour Party. For a while, there was a literal three-party split, and the ones that identified with the Liberal Party and not the Labour Party were ones that had generally libertarian views but cared neither a jot nor a tiddle for the poor or for downtrodden classes. In fact, John Maynard Keynes went through a period, during his lifetime, where he represented the views of your average 21st Century libertarian, except he also supported eugenics based on the argument, "if you don't want people to be poor, then stop producing more poor people." He was a bisexual guy, and overall, he was not particularly conservative. In fact, he would have supported progressive taxation. However, the conflict between the Liberal Party and the Labour Party probably magnified some of his more offensive views into expressions of pique, and the fact that he came from an upper-class family probably skewed his perceptions of the poor. He was still rather progressive, for the most part.

However, the so-called "classical liberals" are failing to understand that the true classical liberals are the ones that go back to Adam Smith's ideas, and Adam Smith's ideas were really an answer against unfair policies that kept trade in the hands of rich upper-class families. In a way, he was a bit of a libertarian progressive by modern standards. He only believed that you ought to be allowed to build a ship and go buy products directly from Canton without having to buy them from the East India Company, which had a de jure monopoly. He also favored a progressive tax on land based on the argument that the richest landowners tended to benefit disproportionately from their own government being in power, whereas the poor lived probably the same under English rule as they would have, at the time, under French rule. His argument was only based on the fact that, as a matter of fact, the policies of the government directly worked to give special advantages to the upper-class, which was unsurprising because the upper-class had the most political power. The progressive tax just made sense: if the rich were inevitably going to rig the government in order to keep themselves comfortable, then they could pay for the fucking government, not the poor that did not have as much say in how things were run.

In other words, the people that call themselves "classical liberals" are really not. The real classical liberals were progressive. They are still a little bit off from how I look at things, but the people that call themselves "classical liberals" today have many views that are antithetical to what those individuals really believed. What is called "capitalism" today was, at the time, not really "capitalism as opposed to socialism," but it was "free markets as opposed to de jure monopolies by companies that were given royal charters based on a corrupted mercantilist economy that deliberately benefited only the richest social elites." The idea that the poor and the middle-class ought to be allowed to participate in open and free trade was actually proto-socialist, and if the so-called "classical liberals" do not recognize that, then that is only demonstrative of their profound ignorance about the politics of that time-period.

I am a classical philosophical radical because FYIAD, although I disagree with James Mill's Indophobia. Furthermore, you could argue that I am a Ricardian socialist, and Thomas Hodgskin came closer than anyone else alive at the time to representing my current views on both socialism and anarchism. Furthermore, I support Jeremy Bentham's views on animal rights, and I consider him to have been an early pioneer in the area of both LGBT equality and religious skepticism. I do agree with John Stuart Mill's justice-related revisions upon utilitarianism.
 
A couple centuries ago we just wanted democracy.
I'm not sure who "we" is here.

The country I live in, USA, certainly wasn't founded on that.

It was Founded by a batch of wealthy male WASP people. They certainly didn't believe in democracy. They just wanted voting rights for themselves, and a government that represented them.

Over time we expanded on their high falutin' hypocrisy. Now even black lesbians get to vote(mostly).

But, no, a couple of centuries ago democracy was a delicacy reserved for the elite. It wasn't for the little people.
Tom
When the US was founded more than two centuries ago, it was the most progressive society in the history of the world. Yet, people now shit on it.
On what basis can you make the claim that a country that was founded with legal slavery, the denial of a political voice to a gender or to those without property was the most progressive society in the history of the world?
The United States is what I would class as "overall not terrible." The real issue is our very diversity, I mean as a culture. The consequence is pronounced regional inequality. If Massachusetts were a nation, then Massachusetts would have the highest math scores of any nation in the world, but the United States, as a whole, performs poorly. Even within the states, there are remarkable differences between specific metro areas and surrounding rural areas: while San Francisco likes to tout their credentials as one of the best places in the world for African-Americans to advance their careers, which is true, Atlanta has at times been one of the fastest improving metro areas for African-Americans, and if Georgia continues its "blue drift" phenomenon, then they might make a dramatic turnaround over the next generation.

Then again, not all of Europe is one large Stockholm. It is not a giant Holland. There are Black Sea states there that are really shockingly conservative. In spite of the fact that I love the culture in Kyiv, Odessa, and Kharkiv, there are parts of Ukraine that are profoundly alien to how I understand those particular metro areas, and if Mariupol might have a progressive future once the war is ended, then that will only be because of the investment I expect Kyiv to make in rebuilding Mariupol as a big middle-finger to Russia's attempts to sow terror by wrecking it. Switzerland really took an alarmingly long time in the advancement of LGBT equality, and there are still have some rather barbaric anti-zoo sentiments in that country. While the Czech Republic is undeniably advanced in some ways, they are a little less advanced in others. French nationalism can be rather toxic, and I blame it for many of their current problems. Even Sweden has areas that are not really as progressive as their big metro areas. The only place there that I would ponder moving to is really Helsinki, to be honest: other cities might be nice, but only Helsinki would be worth the dislocation and culture shock of moving. They've built themselves a damn fine city, but to be honest, I would rather talk to my city council about what a fine city Helsinki is and how there is a lot we could learn from them. They worked hard to make their space nice, and we should do the same.

I am not saying, "Yeah, the States is great!" because our country is indeed flawed, but I am also skeptical of European nationalism. They have great potential, and they also have a lot of work left to do. They have challenges, and they should rise to those challenges. That does not erase our own challenges or take away our own obligation to rise to meet them.

I acknowledge that the best places in Europe are places we ought to attempt to emulate if we can. Many of their great metro areas have worked very hard to set a positive example, and the world ought to follow that example. We could not hurt ourselves by following the positive examples set for us by Helsinki or by Holland or by Stockholm. It could not hurt us to imitate excellence. Unlike national pessimists, though, I believe that we can if only we will make up our minds to do so.
 
So-called social justice is often opposed to actual justice because the latter is supposed to seek justice on an individual level, while "social justice" concerns itself with groups.
This is the fundamental difference.

Groups don't actually exist (harming Peter to help Paul doesn't produce any justice), it should be about individuals.
It is counterfactual to claim groups do not actually exist. Do you mean that groups should not matter?

The basic problem is the victims and the beneficiaries are different people. Lumping them together by some arbitrary characteristic (skin color) doesn't a group make. AA provides no redress to any victim of discrimination.
Worse, it tells newborn children of group A that they should have grievance against newborn children of group B. What result?
How do you come up with such inanity?
You apparently believe in inherited guilt. Please explain why that’s a good thing.
 
So-called social justice is often opposed to actual justice because the latter is supposed to seek justice on an individual level, while "social justice" concerns itself with groups.
This is the fundamental difference.

Groups don't actually exist (harming Peter to help Paul doesn't produce any justice), it should be about individuals.
It is counterfactual to claim groups do not actually exist. Do you mean that groups should not matter?

The basic problem is the victims and the beneficiaries are different people. Lumping them together by some arbitrary characteristic (skin color) doesn't a group make. AA provides no redress to any victim of discrimination.
Worse, it tells newborn children of group A that they should have grievance against newborn children of group B. What result?
In my experience, when you tell a newborn child anything, it just stares at you. Occasionally it might laugh, or cry. It's likely going to try to grab hold of you if you are in range.
Not very good with analogies, are you.
 
When the US was founded more than two centuries ago, it was the most progressive society in the history of the world.
...more than two centuries ago...
And? Could you let us know what other society before these dead White guys was better? Without these dead White guys, you wouldn't have the freedoms you have today.
That is not evidence of your claim that the US was the most progressive society in the history of the world when it was founded more than two centuries ago. You made an affirmative claim of fact. It is up to you to support it.
Okay. Name it.
 
So-called social justice is often opposed to actual justice because the latter is supposed to seek justice on an individual level, while "social justice" concerns itself with groups.
This is the fundamental difference.

Groups don't actually exist (harming Peter to help Paul doesn't produce any justice), it should be about individuals.
It is counterfactual to claim groups do not actually exist. Do you mean that groups should not matter?

The basic problem is the victims and the beneficiaries are different people. Lumping them together by some arbitrary characteristic (skin color) doesn't a group make. AA provides no redress to any victim of discrimination.
Worse, it tells newborn children of group A that they should have grievance against newborn children of group B. What result?
How do you come up with such inanity?
Calling the truth inanity doesn't make it so.

The beneficiaries are not the victims. Sharing an attribute with the victims doesn't change this.
 
Show how the law is wrong, don't just claim it is and expect us to take it on faith.
"The law", as you put it, applies to everyone equally. So far, so good, but it assumes a level playing field. The field is not level, and not just from a monetary point of view. That is just the most visible aspect of some people starting with a handicap.

Opportunity-and-wealth-equality.png


Have you ever wondered why starting blocks for longer foot races on ovals are staggered?

30448.jpg

400 metre race at the 2012 London Olympics
Money means resources to be spent on education. It's no surprise that those who come from money do better in school. That doesn't mean you pretend inferior students are as good as superior students.
Tell someone who pretends inferior students are as good as superior students. I certainly do not. My argument is that the different positions of the starting blocks level the playing field. Those differences are in fact what ensures that the fastest runner is the most likely winner.
You realize those different starting blocks are simply compensation for the inherent issue of the curvature of the track? You don't see varying starting blocks on a straight track. They are compensating for the very issue created by the track, not for any outside supposed discrimination.
 
Have you ever wondered why starting blocks for longer foot races on ovals are staggered?
To ensure equality of opportunity by having each lane be the same length.
It is not there to ensure equality of outcomes aka "equity".
Exactly! Creating a level playing field ensures equality of opportunity. It does not ensure equality of outcomes, nor is it meant to.
The problem comes when inequality of outcome is used as proof of inequality of opportunity.
 
So-called social justice is often opposed to actual justice because the latter is supposed to seek justice on an individual level, while "social justice" concerns itself with groups.
This is the fundamental difference.

Groups don't actually exist (harming Peter to help Paul doesn't produce any justice), it should be about individuals.
It is counterfactual to claim groups do not actually exist. Do you mean that groups should not matter?

The basic problem is the victims and the beneficiaries are different people. Lumping them together by some arbitrary characteristic (skin color) doesn't a group make. AA provides no redress to any victim of discrimination.
Worse, it tells newborn children of group A that they should have grievance against newborn children of group B. What result?
How do you come up with such inanity?
You apparently believe in inherited guilt.
That inane strawman does not answer my question unless you are claiming you have a genetic predisposition to inanities.
Trausti said:
Please explain why that’s a good thing.
I don’t know why anyone would think that nor why anyone thinks it has anything to do with AA.
 
When the US was founded more than two centuries ago, it was the most progressive society in the history of the world.
...more than two centuries ago...
And? Could you let us know what other society before these dead White guys was better? Without these dead White guys, you wouldn't have the freedoms you have today.
That is not evidence of your claim that the US was the most progressive society in the history of the world when it was founded more than two centuries ago. You made an affirmative claim of fact. It is up to you to support it.
Okay. Name it.
I did.
So-called social justice is often opposed to actual justice because the latter is supposed to seek justice on an individual level, while "social justice" concerns itself with groups.
This is the fundamental difference.

Groups don't actually exist (harming Peter to help Paul doesn't produce any justice), it should be about individuals.
It is counterfactual to claim groups do not actually exist. Do you mean that groups should not matter?

The basic problem is the victims and the beneficiaries are different people. Lumping them together by some arbitrary characteristic (skin color) doesn't a group make. AA provides no redress to any victim of discrimination.
Worse, it tells newborn children of group A that they should have grievance against newborn children of group B. What result?
How do you come up with such inanity?
Calling the truth inanity doesn't make it so.
Claiming something is true doe not make it so.
The beneficiaries are not the victims.
Nonsense.
 
When the US was founded more than two centuries ago, it was the most progressive society in the history of the world.
...more than two centuries ago...
And? Could you let us know what other society before these dead White guys was better? Without these dead White guys, you wouldn't have the freedoms you have today.
That is not evidence of your claim that the US was the most progressive society in the history of the world when it was founded more than two centuries ago. You made an affirmative claim of fact. It is up to you to support it.
Okay. Name it.
I did name it (see the bold-faced above). If that is too difficult for you to recognize, here are the exact words in your claim of fact:
When the US was founded more than two centuries ago, it was the most progressive society in the history of the world.
 
Show how the law is wrong, don't just claim it is and expect us to take it on faith.
"The law", as you put it, applies to everyone equally. So far, so good, but it assumes a level playing field. The field is not level, and not just from a monetary point of view. That is just the most visible aspect of some people starting with a handicap.

Opportunity-and-wealth-equality.png


Have you ever wondered why starting blocks for longer foot races on ovals are staggered?

30448.jpg

400 metre race at the 2012 London Olympics
Money means resources to be spent on education. It's no surprise that those who come from money do better in school. That doesn't mean you pretend inferior students are as good as superior students.
Tell someone who pretends inferior students are as good as superior students. I certainly do not. My argument is that the different positions of the starting blocks level the playing field. Those differences are in fact what ensures that the fastest runner is the most likely winner.
You realize those different starting blocks are simply compensation for the inherent issue of the curvature of the track? You don't see varying starting blocks on a straight track. They are compensating for the very issue created by the track, not for any outside supposed discrimination.
Yes, I do. Those different starting blocks are compensation for the inherent issue of the curvature of the track. That's the analogy.
 
Have you ever wondered why starting blocks for longer foot races on ovals are staggered?
To ensure equality of opportunity by having each lane be the same length.
It is not there to ensure equality of outcomes aka "equity".
Exactly! Creating a level playing field ensures equality of opportunity. It does not ensure equality of outcomes, nor is it meant to.
The problem comes when inequality of outcome is used as proof of inequality of opportunity.
Inequality of opportunity is statistically linked with inequality of outcome, and not just in the field of education.
 
Back
Top Bottom