Rape victim ordered to pay her abuser child support

[Rhea]

The power dynamic between a 30yo and a 16yo is well regulated for a variety of transactions In the US.
Sex.
loans.
military service.
booze.
contracts.
marriage, in most states
travel across state lines.

The laws are pretty clear.

 

[Toni]

I could never understand the appeal to younger women. My entire late 20s was spent chasing women 40+ with the occasional late 30s getting hit up every now and then. The experience they have was well worth it. I messed around with girls my age and they left a lot to be desired. I can't imagine an immature teen aka borderline child being anything close.

That's just me.

It is mostly just you. Youth (in women and in men) have been sexually desirable in every culture in history.

I don't know. It could be a gender difference. It could be experience of having older men (too old) hitting on me but there is something about (some) older persons preferring younger partners because of the difference in power, and because with youth and inexperience come less opportunities for judgement or criticism.

Youth is sometimes attracted to older/more experienced because they appreciate the confidence that comes with maturity.

 

[laughing dog]

I could never understand the appeal to younger women. My entire late 20s was spent chasing women 40+ with the occasional late 30s getting hit up every now and then. The experience they have was well worth it. I messed around with girls my age and they left a lot to be desired. I can't imagine an immature teen aka borderline child being anything close.

That's just me.

It is not just you.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

It appears in this thread that TomC believes if you engage in underage drinking, it is your fault of an actual adult rapes you and impregnates you.

I don't think that's what he's saying. Rather, he appears to be saying that she was able to convince a bartender that she was 21. By being in the bar he had a reasonable reason to think she was of legal age. This is rather like my position on it--I do not agree with statutory rape being a strict liability offense. I expect the older person to make a reasonable effort to confirm the age of someone who looks young, but I do not believe falling for fake ID should be enough to convict over an act that had no criminal intent.

The whole ‘but she was in a bar’ canard is used as an excuse almost on par with’ it did you see how short her skirt was’ and ‘but she wasn’t even a virgin ‘

I understand that middle aged and older men don’t like the idea of underage girls being off limits except perhaps their own daughter.

I understand that a lot of men are much more concerned about having young sex partners available on demand and if drunk, so much the better. Youth and inexperience are often not sufficient to cover up for his lack of skill as a sex partner, hence the additional attraction of inebriation. She likely won’t be able to fight you off or remember exactly what happened. Or be believed. So a win, all around. Fir him.

Here’s something you might not realize: almost all 16 year old girls in the US regard 30 year old men as…middle aged. And not in the good way.

You seem to have totally missed the point.

We aren't blaming her for being in a bar. Rather, we are saying that being in a bar implies she is of legal age. How is he supposed to know she's underage?

 

[Arctish]

It appears in this thread that TomC believes if you engage in underage drinking, it is your fault of an actual adult rapes you and impregnates you.

I don't think that's what he's saying. Rather, he appears to be saying that she was able to convince a bartender that she was 21. By being in the bar he had a reasonable reason to think she was of legal age. This is rather like my position on it--I do not agree with statutory rape being a strict liability offense. I expect the older person to make a reasonable effort to confirm the age of someone who looks young, but I do not believe falling for fake ID should be enough to convict over an act that had no criminal intent.

The whole ‘but she was in a bar’ canard is used as an excuse almost on par with’ it did you see how short her skirt was’ and ‘but she wasn’t even a virgin ‘

I understand that middle aged and older men don’t like the idea of underage girls being off limits except perhaps their own daughter.

I understand that a lot of men are much more concerned about having young sex partners available on demand and if drunk, so much the better. Youth and inexperience are often not sufficient to cover up for his lack of skill as a sex partner, hence the additional attraction of inebriation. She likely won’t be able to fight you off or remember exactly what happened. Or be believed. So a win, all around. Fir him.

Here’s something you might not realize: almost all 16 year old girls in the US regard 30 year old men as…middle aged. And not in the good way.

You seem to have totally missed the point.

We aren't blaming her for being in a bar. Rather, we are saying that being in a bar implies she is of legal age. How is he supposed to know she's underage?

Did he promise to take her home but then take her to HIS home instead?

If that part of the story is true, I doubt he cared how old she was or made any attempt to get anything like actual consent before he impregnated her on his couch.

There is no sure-fire way to determine how old a prospective sex partner is but at some point a man has to take responsibility for where he puts his penis. Surely that point comes before his 30th birthday.

 

[Hermit]

...being in a bar implies she is of legal age.

Only if nobody is ever in a bar unless they were of legal age.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

I could never understand the appeal to younger women. My entire late 20s was spent chasing women 40+ with the occasional late 30s getting hit up every now and then. The experience they have was well worth it. I messed around with girls my age and they left a lot to be desired. I can't imagine an immature teen aka borderline child being anything close.

That's just me.

It is mostly just you. Youth (in women and in men) have been sexually desirable in every culture in history.

I don't know. It could be a gender difference. It could be experience of having older men (too old) hitting on me but there is something about (some) older persons preferring younger partners because of the difference in power, and because with youth and inexperience come less opportunities for judgement or criticism.

Youth is sometimes attracted to older/more experienced because they appreciate the confidence that comes with maturity.

Sometimes it can simply be youth is just more attractive for some guys. Granted, I've passed a threshold where a person of a certain age can definitely look great, but the idea of hitting on them repulses me, due to my age.

There is finding someone attractive and then there is trying to get into their pants.

 

[ZiprHead]

...being in a bar implies she is of legal age.

Only if nobody is ever in a bar unless they were of legal age.

It still has not been determined whether this venue was a bar or a restaurant that also serves alcohol, like Applebee's, Olive Garden, Outback, etc..

 

[laughing dog]

It appears in this thread that TomC believes if you engage in underage drinking, it is your fault of an actual adult rapes you and impregnates you.

I don't think that's what he's saying. Rather, he appears to be saying that she was able to convince a bartender that she was 21. By being in the bar he had a reasonable reason to think she was of legal age. This is rather like my position on it--I do not agree with statutory rape being a strict liability offense. I expect the older person to make a reasonable effort to confirm the age of someone who looks young, but I do not believe falling for fake ID should be enough to convict over an act that had no criminal intent.

The whole ‘but she was in a bar’ canard is used as an excuse almost on par with’ it did you see how short her skirt was’ and ‘but she wasn’t even a virgin ‘

I understand that middle aged and older men don’t like the idea of underage girls being off limits except perhaps their own daughter.

I understand that a lot of men are much more concerned about having young sex partners available on demand and if drunk, so much the better. Youth and inexperience are often not sufficient to cover up for his lack of skill as a sex partner, hence the additional attraction of inebriation. She likely won’t be able to fight you off or remember exactly what happened. Or be believed. So a win, all around. Fir him.

Here’s something you might not realize: almost all 16 year old girls in the US regard 30 year old men as…middle aged. And not in the good way.

You seem to have totally missed the point.

We aren't blaming her for being in a bar. Rather, we are saying that being in a bar implies she is of legal age. How is he supposed to know she's underage?

Your assumption that being in bar and grill implies someone is of legal age is poor or wishful thinking. Furthermore, you presume he assumed she was of legal age.

In essence your position assumes facts not in evidence.

On the otherhand, the facts of statutory rape of the mother and allegations with evidence of sexual molestation of his teenage daughter are in evidence.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

Rather, we are saying that being in a bar implies she is of legal age.

Right, Tom is saying presence in a bar ==> legal age.

I am saying, even if we ignore the bar/restaurant point that many bars are technically restaurants, presence in a bar does not imply legal age. One reason is that people do not behave legally all the time. Underage drinking is common enough that everyone knows about it and so there is not an expectation that a 16 year old in a bar is 21. Moreover, people do not draw conclusions based on one factor, but rather look at the available things around and make an inference. So, some other factors contributing to inferences would be that she is not going to be fully grown, nor fully mature, especially hanging out with several girlfriends being drunk, only one of whom apparently has a car.

But there's more to this. We are talking about Louisiana which has a long history of a drinking culture, including underage drinking sometimes supported by adults. A long-time Louisiana resident in ~2005 would be aware of the Louisiana drinking culture and how minors are often supported in their drinking. This includes big legal debates, drinking culture, and crazy things people do at mardi gras.

That culture is best summed up by an anonymous bar owner comment, quoted in a 1996 New York Times article:

Uptown, a bartender in a hotel lounge said that all the talk of age limits is moot in the culture of Louisiana, where looking the other way is tradition. After the Supreme Court's decision came down, a young man came into his bar and asked if the drinking age was indeed 18. "Son," said the bartender, who asked not to be named, "if you can count to 18, I'll give you one drink."

Here is more:

Louisiana has a lawless mentality - a mindset that permeates every level of thinking. It's an attitude founded in the way we think about underage drinking. ... A 2006 survey by the National Household Survey on Drug Abuse found 29.97 percent of Louisiana residents age 12 to 20 reported alcohol use, the highest in the South.

...particularly relevant since we are discussing an event that occurred in 2006.

A 30 year old man in 2006 in Louisiana is going to be aware of all the underage drinking that occurs in Louisiana since he grew up there, likely participated in it, and will have been constantly reminded of underage drinking since between 1986 and up to that year there were many political campaigns about awareness, legal debates, tragic news stories.

It therefore makes no sense to take one factor in isolation, ignoring everything else contrary in the Universe, and claim it implies he thought she was definitely 18.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

The restaurant bar situation is hardly different. Many teens engage in underage drinking. This is a known thing. A teen who is underage drinking is not necessarily communicating to anyone that they are acting legally and in fact it is well-known that younger people engage in risky behaviors more often, which includes illegal behaviors. It is probably less well known, but teens tend to binge drink more than the general population. This means if you observe someone who is drunk and very young looking, it ought to cross your mind that they could be underage. I seriously doubt anyway that anyone underage and completely drunk is holding together any kind of semblance of maturity.

Underage drinking, yes, but at bars??

 

[Loren Pechtel]

It appears in this thread that TomC believes if you engage in underage drinking, it is your fault of an actual adult rapes you and impregnates you.

I don't think that's what he's saying. Rather, he appears to be saying that she was able to convince a bartender that she was 21. By being in the bar he had a reasonable reason to think she was of legal age. This is rather like my position on it--I do not agree with statutory rape being a strict liability offense. I expect the older person to make a reasonable effort to confirm the age of someone who looks young, but I do not believe falling for fake ID should be enough to convict over an act that had no criminal intent.

You know, in principle I'm willing to say 'not strict liability' is reasonable. But taking a step back... when the age difference is that large, I have very little tolerance for any claim on the part of the 30 year old that they had no idea the 16 year old was so young. FFS, a 30 year old picking up a 21 year old makes my hackles rise, regardless of the sexes of the participants.

My wife appeared underage when we met.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

The restaurant bar situation is hardly different. Many teens engage in underage drinking. This is a known thing. A teen who is underage drinking is not necessarily communicating to anyone that they are acting legally and in fact it is well-known that younger people engage in risky behaviors more often, which includes illegal behaviors. It is probably less well known, but teens tend to binge drink more than the general population. This means if you observe someone who is drunk and very young looking, it ought to cross your mind that they could be underage. I seriously doubt anyway that anyone underage and completely drunk is holding together any kind of semblance of maturity.

Underage drinking, yes, but at bars??

Especially at bars?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

There’s a pretty unequal power dynamic for someone who is 21. Add 5-10 years, same age difference and the power dynamic is much less.

How much power dynamic is there is a hookup situation, anyway?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Most 20-21 year old females are not looking for random pick ups and most think, however unconsciously, a guy who wants to have sex with th her must really really really like her. She’s more vulnerable. That’s part of it. But young adults are also eager to prove how adult they are and are more likely to feel some pressure to try to be more mature and sophisticated than they are—more cool. All the 30 year old has to do is to imply that she’s being a baby of just a kid and. There’s a really good chance she’ll ignore her own judgement and engage in behavior she’s not necessarily ready to engage in, to prove herself as ‘mature’ as he is. A 30 year old is more likely to just be interested in non-serious, casual relationships or one offs. Not that she’s likely to be ready to settle down but it’s more likely that to her sex means something different, implies some level of commitment. For a 30 year old man dating a 20-21 year old, she’s perfect: not really ready to settle down, not quite up to his level enough to seriously challenge him on his shit. He can feel in control and if things go wrong, it’s because she’s immature. Which is not necessarily the case—she’s usually less cynical and more idealistic which has its own appeal. He is on the cusp of maybe thinking he might be almost getting to be middle aged—but there he is, dating a hot young thing! He’s still got it!

So 20-21 year old females are children incapable of taking care of themselves?

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

The restaurant bar situation is hardly different. Many teens engage in underage drinking. This is a known thing. A teen who is underage drinking is not necessarily communicating to anyone that they are acting legally and in fact it is well-known that younger people engage in risky behaviors more often, which includes illegal behaviors. It is probably less well known, but teens tend to binge drink more than the general population. This means if you observe someone who is drunk and very young looking, it ought to cross your mind that they could be underage. I seriously doubt anyway that anyone underage and completely drunk is holding together any kind of semblance of maturity.

Underage drinking, yes, but at bars??

Yes, sometimes underage drinking occurs at bars (assuming it was a bar and not a restaurant). Did you see the quote? "if you can count to 18, I'll give you one drink."

That said, the vast majority of the time the supplier is from family and friends and a minority of the time a fake id is used. While we cannot say for sure that the bartender was a friend or looked the other way, it seems more likely that one of her girlfriends got some alcohol and gave it to her from the bar. ... because of those statistics that say most of the time it comes from family and friends, not a fake id.

If I had to take a guess, I'd say some kind of tactic was being used where one of the older friends is buying for others and the bartenders or management looks the other way due to the way Louisiana law works where the bar owner was not held to account, if he did not sell it directly to the minor. Moreover, the illegality in the drinking culture in Louisiana is so common that such tactics would not be unknown to bar goers or 30 year old men from Louisiana. In Louisiana, a good majority of high school seniors have had a drink and half of those drink regularly.

I find it hard to believe that a 30 year old man would be unaware that underage drinking and a culture that supports it exists with it all around him for decades and likely took part in it himself.

 

[Toni]

It appears in this thread that TomC believes if you engage in underage drinking, it is your fault of an actual adult rapes you and impregnates you.

I don't think that's what he's saying. Rather, he appears to be saying that she was able to convince a bartender that she was 21. By being in the bar he had a reasonable reason to think she was of legal age. This is rather like my position on it--I do not agree with statutory rape being a strict liability offense. I expect the older person to make a reasonable effort to confirm the age of someone who looks young, but I do not believe falling for fake ID should be enough to convict over an act that had no criminal intent.

The whole ‘but she was in a bar’ canard is used as an excuse almost on par with’ it did you see how short her skirt was’ and ‘but she wasn’t even a virgin ‘

I understand that middle aged and older men don’t like the idea of underage girls being off limits except perhaps their own daughter.

I understand that a lot of men are much more concerned about having young sex partners available on demand and if drunk, so much the better. Youth and inexperience are often not sufficient to cover up for his lack of skill as a sex partner, hence the additional attraction of inebriation. She likely won’t be able to fight you off or remember exactly what happened. Or be believed. So a win, all around. Fir him.

Here’s something you might not realize: almost all 16 year old girls in the US regard 30 year old men as…middle aged. And not in the good way.

You seem to have totally missed the point.

We aren't blaming her for being in a bar. Rather, we are saying that being in a bar implies she is of legal age. How is he supposed to know she's underage?

Did he promise to take her home but then take her to HIS home instead?

If that part of the story is true, I doubt he cared how old she was or made any attempt to get anything like actual consent before he impregnated her on his couch.

There is no sure-fire way to determine how old a prospective sex partner is but at some point a man has to take responsibility for where he puts his penis. Surely that point comes before his 30th birthday.

I asked my son once, when he was in his mid-20's about being able to know if someone was of age. He said that it was hard to tell by the way girls dressed, but if you talked to them for 5 minutes, you could certainly tell who was still in high school and who had graduated.

5 minutes of talking should do the trick. To avoid rape charges, it seems like a really low bar to meet.

And yes, he offered her a ride home. Now, some men would say that is code for 'let's go to my place' but for a 16 year old girl, it means she needs a ride home. She might not even have had a driver's license yet and it would be normal for adults to give her a ride someplace.

 

[Toni]

Most 20-21 year old females are not looking for random pick ups and most think, however unconsciously, a guy who wants to have sex with th her must really really really like her. She’s more vulnerable. That’s part of it. But young adults are also eager to prove how adult they are and are more likely to feel some pressure to try to be more mature and sophisticated than they are—more cool. All the 30 year old has to do is to imply that she’s being a baby of just a kid and. There’s a really good chance she’ll ignore her own judgement and engage in behavior she’s not necessarily ready to engage in, to prove herself as ‘mature’ as he is. A 30 year old is more likely to just be interested in non-serious, casual relationships or one offs. Not that she’s likely to be ready to settle down but it’s more likely that to her sex means something different, implies some level of commitment. For a 30 year old man dating a 20-21 year old, she’s perfect: not really ready to settle down, not quite up to his level enough to seriously challenge him on his shit. He can feel in control and if things go wrong, it’s because she’s immature. Which is not necessarily the case—she’s usually less cynical and more idealistic which has its own appeal. He is on the cusp of maybe thinking he might be almost getting to be middle aged—but there he is, dating a hot young thing! He’s still got it!

So 20-21 year old females are children incapable of taking care of themselves?

Not what I said: I said that there is a power imbalance that should set off alarms for anyone who gives a rat's ass about the other person. Even if they say: Of course I'm fine. BTW, that's not gender specific. It's just much more common for 30 something year old guys to go after girls who are really too young for them.

Emotional maturity wise, the girl might be as mature or nearly so but in terms of sophistication, experience at being an adult? Not really. To tell the truth, having observed this up close and personal from multiple perspectives, I think that's part of the appeal.

 

[Toni]

It appears in this thread that TomC believes if you engage in underage drinking, it is your fault of an actual adult rapes you and impregnates you.

I don't think that's what he's saying. Rather, he appears to be saying that she was able to convince a bartender that she was 21. By being in the bar he had a reasonable reason to think she was of legal age. This is rather like my position on it--I do not agree with statutory rape being a strict liability offense. I expect the older person to make a reasonable effort to confirm the age of someone who looks young, but I do not believe falling for fake ID should be enough to convict over an act that had no criminal intent.

The whole ‘but she was in a bar’ canard is used as an excuse almost on par with’ it did you see how short her skirt was’ and ‘but she wasn’t even a virgin ‘

I understand that middle aged and older men don’t like the idea of underage girls being off limits except perhaps their own daughter.

I understand that a lot of men are much more concerned about having young sex partners available on demand and if drunk, so much the better. Youth and inexperience are often not sufficient to cover up for his lack of skill as a sex partner, hence the additional attraction of inebriation. She likely won’t be able to fight you off or remember exactly what happened. Or be believed. So a win, all around. Fir him.

Here’s something you might not realize: almost all 16 year old girls in the US regard 30 year old men as…middle aged. And not in the good way.

You seem to have totally missed the point.

We aren't blaming her for being in a bar. Rather, we are saying that being in a bar implies she is of legal age. How is he supposed to know she's underage?

Your assumption that being in bar and grill implies someone is of legal age is poor or wishful thinking. Furthermore, you presume he assumed she was of legal age.

In essence your position assumes facts not in evidence.

On the otherhand, the facts of statutory rape of the mother and allegations with evidence of sexual molestation of his teenage daughter are in evidence.

Being female and in an establishment that serves alcohol is the new: but her skirt was so short.

 

[Toni]

It appears in this thread that TomC believes if you engage in underage drinking, it is your fault of an actual adult rapes you and impregnates you.

I don't think that's what he's saying. Rather, he appears to be saying that she was able to convince a bartender that she was 21. By being in the bar he had a reasonable reason to think she was of legal age. This is rather like my position on it--I do not agree with statutory rape being a strict liability offense. I expect the older person to make a reasonable effort to confirm the age of someone who looks young, but I do not believe falling for fake ID should be enough to convict over an act that had no criminal intent.

You know, in principle I'm willing to say 'not strict liability' is reasonable. But taking a step back... when the age difference is that large, I have very little tolerance for any claim on the part of the 30 year old that they had no idea the 16 year old was so young. FFS, a 30 year old picking up a 21 year old makes my hackles rise, regardless of the sexes of the participants.

My wife appeared underage when we met.

Yes, but presumably you TALKED to her before you slept with her.

There’s a pretty unequal power dynamic for someone who is 21. Add 5-10 years, same age difference and the power dynamic is much less.

How much power dynamic is there is a hookup situation, anyway?

For one thing, a 16 year old is much less likely to be looking for a hook up at a bar. A 30 year old man, sure.

I'm having a real hard time understanding WHY talking to someone for a few minutes and ascertaining their actual age is SUCH A HIGH BAR for a guy to leap in order to avoid statutory rape charges for himself and frankly a lot of trauma for her.