US student loans grotesquely high

[bilby]

It would have been such a better idea to simply make student loan debt dischargeable through bankruptcy. The borrowers get a negative mark on their credit record for making a bad decision, the lenders get a loss for making a bad decision, and future bad decisions are discouraged all around. Instead we have a transference of debt to the government and neither the borrowers nor the lenders suffer any consequences for their decisions.

Not suffering consequences is progressive dogma though.

So while everyone is concentrating on whether or not people are ghouls to the borrowers, the fact is under this arrangement you are either choosing to be a ghoul to borrowers or choosing to be a ghoul to non-borrowers. The question isn't if you are going to be a ghoul, it is who you are going to be a ghoul towards.

Two words: Strategic bankruptcy.

If student loans were dischargeable they would cease to exist because most people would complete their education and then declare bankruptcy. People who take student loans almost certainly exit college with negative net worth.

Sounds good to me. It would probably be even better not to bother with loans at all, and just use general revenue to pay for education from the get-go; But at least your strategic bankruptcy proposal is a massive improvement on the current system.

It WAS better back in the days when states funded most of the cost of attending a state university.

If states stepped up and committed or re-committed to covering at least 65% of the cost of university as they did in the early 70’s that would help tremendously.

As student loans became more available, universities began to raise costs—and states backed away from supporting universities as conservatism rose.

When I went to university in the UK in the late 1980s, my entire tuition cost, plus a living expenses allowance paid as a cash lump sum three times a year, were granted to any student who was accepted for undergraduate enrolment by a recognised university or polytechnic. The grant was sufficient that few students needed to find any kind of paid work during term time, and could dedicate themselves entirely to their pursuit of alcohol and sexual partners studies.

This cost was met by the local education authority in which the student obtained their entry qualifications; So the ratepayers of the city of Leeds paid the University of Portsmouth, and (via myself as intermediary) the publicans and breweries of the southern Hampshire region, for the privilege of hosting my presence.

There was no requirement to ever repay this money; It was expected that the benefits to society of educating its members would easily outweigh these costs.

It was a complicated and long-standing system with medieval roots; But it worked.

Until the Thatcherites decided they were smart enough to replace a system that had evolved over centuries, with one thought up over a couple of boozy lunch meetings by crazy ideologues, who had an irrational fear that people might learn stuff without the intention of using their knowledge to get filthy rich.

I can understand why it was essential to prevent people from trying to improve the human condition, understand the world in which we live, and generally work towards a happier and healthier society, when their selfishly doing this might lead to lower corporate profits; But it still seems...

Wait.

What??

I think we might have been robbed.

 

[Derec]

The Rawlsian Nurse on Twitter: "@mtsw I think that it reflects younger Dem voters & politicians being far more aggressive & oriented towards counter-attacks rather than defensive crouches (as most of the Dem gerentocracy are)." / Twitter

Re the tweet this alleged nurse was replying to: I am neither a Republican nor a Democrat and I think both that PPP loans should receive some heightened scrutiny and also that blue-haired baristas should not get their MAs in underwater basket weaving comped. Especially when they are taken at a fancy private college.

Lpetrich, any idea what the "Rawlsian" refers to?

 

[Derec]

How many students now have good jobs and are on track to pay back their student loan debt like a responsible adult would for any debt. Yet they are eligible to get $10,000 payoff, as far as I can see.

No kidding. If you are making six figures (Biden's giveaway applies to anyone making <$125k if single and <$250k if married), you definitely should be paying off your own student loans.

 

[Derec]

Unfortunately, some are not seeing their loan balances shrinking even after paying for 10 years or more.

That's what happens if you pay just the interest, or even less.

Money used to pay off student debt is money that cannot be used to invest in homes or to help fund future retirement.

Same goes for credit card debt. Should the federal government pay people's Visas and MasterCards too?

A LOT of students graduated during a period of economic downturn and struggled to find jobs that would allow them to pay their loans and rent.

Sure. And income based repayment has existed for a while. I think it's too generous (and Biden is making it even more so). Too many people qualify to make no payments whatsoever, which is how balances keep increasing.

It’s the fact that there aren’t enough people having children to grow up to become doctors and nurses and other foundational careers that support society.

Do you really think these entitled millennials will have more children if you pay their student loans for their Medieval French Poetry degrees?

If conservatives are upset about immigration now, wait until they find there are no doctors, nurses, dentists, teachers, etc. who are Anglo Americans.

That's a bit dramatic. Although, I do foresee greater automation even in the healthcare industry in the future.

 

[Derec]

Our Father, who art in heaven, hallowed be thy name. I ask that you guide the republican angst against student loan forgiveness for the needy

People making $120k (or $240k if married) are not exactly "needy".

 

[Derec]

In the short term, there will be some (probably small) inflation pressure, but it will occur while inflation is falling so it might not be very noticeable.

Well, it may prompt Powell at al to increase interest rates another 50 basis points ...

The real payoff is down the road, when millions of people we would have had to pay to incarcerate are instead productive, taxpaying citizens.

Good thing I got the $10k from Biden or I would have had no choice but to start cooking meth.

It's MAGAt Republicans' worst nightmare. It would lay bare the room temperature IQ of their Mango Model and the disingenuousness of his sycophantic Congressional politician supporters, to millions of people - who will summarily un-elect them.

Huh?

That's why University education should be free.

All of it? Countries with free tertiary education like Germany tend to have much stricter gatekeeping about who gets into universities. And there are restrictions on how many slots are available in each major.

 

[Derec]

[stupid tweet]

Would this guy like what is in the rest of Deuteronomy or Leviticus? Ok, he is Muslim so he might like the parts about no pork and about stoning gays ...

 

[Derec]

If the Christians actually read the Bible rather than just using the pretense of bibliolatry as decoration for their egos, this world would be a very different-looking place.

Ok so your debts would be forgiven (but at the same time, no bank would give out long term loans like mortgages), but a wide array of stuff would be subject to death penalty. Also, no pork, no shellfish and no mixed fibers.

 

[Politesse]

any idea what the "Rawlsian" refers to?

John Bordley Rawls, surely? The moral philosopher? Maximum benefit to the least advantaged? Famous thought experiments?

 

[Politesse]

If the Christians actually read the Bible rather than just using the pretense of bibliolatry as decoration for their egos, this world would be a very different-looking place.

Ok so your debts would be forgiven (but at the same time, no bank would give out long term loans like mortgages), but a wide array of stuff would be subject to death penalty. Also, no pork, no shellfish and no mixed fibers.

As I said, a very different-looking place.

 

[Derec]

I believe it was Bush II who opened up student loans to commercial lenders who then charged credit card style rates.

[citation needed] for student loans charging "credit card style rates".
And if you maxed out on grants and federal student loans (subsidized or unsubsidized) then maybe that's a sign you should maybe transfer to a state school from Boston or Davidson to finish your degree. Nobody is forced to take private student loans. I also do not think they are affected by the Biden forgiveness.

 

[Derec]

If student loans were dischargeable they would cease to exist because most people would complete their education and then declare bankruptcy. People who take student loans almost certainly exit college with negative net worth.

Make them dischargeable x years later, maybe 10 or 15.

 

[Derec]

If you give an eighteen year old a sheaf of papers and say "if you don't sign these, you get no money to pay for college", do you genuinely think many of them would bother to read the small print, or would fully comprehend its implications even if they did read it?

18 year olds are adults, fully legally able to sign contracts and enter into agreements.

 

[Derec]

It WAS better back in the days when states funded most of the cost of attending a state university.

In Georgia, you can get most your tuition at state schools paid by the HOPE scholarship as long as you maintain a 3.0 GPA. Paid for by the voluntary tax on math ineptitude (aka Georgia State Lottery). Used to be full tuition plus fees and a book stipend, but the amount of money lottery fiends spend apparently did not keep up with the rising cost of college.

 

[bilby]

If you give an eighteen year old a sheaf of papers and say "if you don't sign these, you get no money to pay for college", do you genuinely think many of them would bother to read the small print, or would fully comprehend its implications even if they did read it?

18 year olds are adults, fully legally able to sign contracts and enter into agreements.

I know.

That fact is completely irrelevant to my question.

Would you like to try answering the question I asked, or are you just enjoying quoting my posts with completely irrelevant (and well known) facts underneath?

 

[Gospel]

Our Father, who art in heaven, hallowed be thy name. I ask that you guide the republican angst against student loan forgiveness for the needy

People making $120k (or $240k if married) are not exactly "needy".

That's true. Still also true that republicans aren't upset about the trillions in lost revenue due to tax cuts for the not so needy who are making even more than that. All for some hocus-pocus called trickle down economics. Even you ignored it just to take a jab at Biden's giveaway because 120K/240K.

 

[Derec]

Even you ignored it just to take a jab at Biden's giveaway because 120K/240K.

I mean that's what this thread is about, not Trump's tax cut. For the record, I think some provisions of it have been bad, others (like the increased standard deduction) have been good. Nevertheless, it is not on topic in this thread.

 

[Derec]

That fact is completely irrelevant to my question.

I disagree completely. If they are competent adults, then you cannot assume they were somehow bamboozled and that we the taxpayer have to pay for their private college adventures.

 

[bilby]

That fact is completely irrelevant to my question.

I disagree completely. If they are competent adults, then you cannot assume they were somehow bamboozled

Of course I can. Your assumption that they are not flies in the face of reality.

Do you always read and carefully consider every word of an EULA before clicking 'I agree'?

The law presumes that contracts are entered into only by people who have carefully considered them and their consequences. But that's because the law is an ass.

And of course the law is often written by the beneficiaries of these scams.

and that we the taxpayer have to pay for their private college adventures.

Yeah, because what people learn in college is not in any way beneficial to the nation.

You the taxpayer have been getting the benefits, while making the people providing those benefits into a cash cow for wealthy arseholes. It's way past time that you stopped exploiting people, and started paying for the benefits of living in a country not entirely populated by morons.

 

[Ford]

Again, the most vulnerable students are those whose family never went to college, who are likely to come from working class or poor families whose families have little or no ability to help them and who may have little or no experience with student loans.

A coworker at my last job told me her parents encouraged her to take out the maximum loans possible and to ‘enjoy herself.’

So, I was the first one in my family to go away to college. I went to a small 4 year university. I was able to go there for two reasons. One, while my parents were born working class, my father managed to drag us into the middle class by landing a decent job running a small factory and being frugal and strategic with his modest compensation. He saved every penny for other things like college. Then one year when the company was doing very well, the owner wanted to give my dad a huge raise and a bonus. He made a counter-offer. Instead of up-front money, the boss would pay for his kids' tuition and books at whatever college we got into. Tuition back then was pretty inexpensive, so he went for it, and probably wrote it off as a "scholarship." Win-win.
I didn't have to take out student loans. Had to work (my parents paid for my dorm room for awhile) but graduated with no debt. This would not be possible today.

On a whim, I looked it up just now. My 4 (well, 4 and a half) year education -not counting books or room and board - would be just under $60,000 today. I'm trying to wrap my mind around how expensive this would be, and the first thing that popped into my mind was that nice shiny new BMW that my boss drives. It's pretty sweet, and so I went to the BMW site to build out a car that would be about the same price as his car or 4 years of tuition at my old alma mater, and how much it would cost to finance.

Zero down for 60 months (meaning it would take a year after graduation to pay off)? Almost $1200 a month. Lease for 4 years? Just under a grand a month.

Granted, a car loan is different from a student loan, but...