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Need anti-inerrancy resources help

Brian63

Brian63

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Soon I will be attending at least day 1 of an 8-session live seminar of a group heavily focused on promoting biblical prophecies, End Times, etc. Their brochure came in the mail days ago.

I plan to attend because I want to present an unexpected point of view. On the topic of religion, I am comfortable talking mostly about philosophical arguments and a little bit about scientific arguments. However, I am especially ignorant of historical matters of the bible. That is where I would ask for your help, please. I have never cared enough about the issue to study it in detail. Still don't.

One point I expect to raise is whether people should research criticisms of the bible, they argue for its historical inaccuracies. Should we read various books on the matter that espouse a wide variety of views? Or should people in their audience only read books that agree with their pre-existing view? If they pressed on examples for such books, I only have minimal to give.


I am looking for ones that are very ideologically diverse. Ones that argue for Jesus mythicism to a historical-but-embellished Jesus and such. Various takes on how literal or metaphorical the OT is. Also ones that range from beginner-level to very advanced in arguing against the bible and prophecies themselves. Anything that could help such a group get a realization that:

1. There do exist lots of scholarly counter-apologetics about how the bible is historically unreliable.
2. If the biblical inerrantists are not telling the group about the existence of knowledgeable critics and especially would be advising them to avoid researching such materials, that should be a red flag that they do not have the group's individual intellect and education in priority. Rather, thought control over the group is more important.


Could you please help me compile a list of such books, authors, speakers, podcasts, websites?

Even if you disagree with the resource, just the fact that they run counter to biblical inerrancy would be enough to help my larger purpose. I do not want any kind of list of arguments or evidences myself---just a list of resources which discuss them more. I do not care about the topic. Since they do though, I want to advocate for them to study a wide range of opinions and introduce them to heretical thoughts too. Plant a seed of reason.

Thanks.
 
Modern day Near East archeology has demonstrated that the Pentateuch is not history. There was no Egyptian captivity, no exodus. No wandering in desert, no bloody genocidal invasion in Canaan.

For a quick read to get you up to speed, try "The Bible Unearthed" by Finklestein and Silberman. Any of the works by William Dever are good also. "Who Were The Ancient Israelites And Where Did The Come From?" Is good.

No serious Near East archeologists take the Pentateuch and Joshua seriously. Joshua and Judges seriously contradict each other.

The ancient Israelites supposedly started with 75 illiterate shepherds in Egypt that left after 430 years in Egypt. Ancient Israelite were typical Canaanites who showed no Egyptian cultural traits, not in language, pottery styles, not in anything.

The whole archeological history is too complex for you to do more than hit the high points. Good luck!

William Dever has a number of Youtube videos.
 
Thank you.

Names of the resources (whether authors, books, websites, podcasts, etc.) plus a brief summary of them is especially what I am looking for. Ranging in opinion and skill level.

I am not at all able or interested in getting into any of the history debating myself. I just am looking for a list of resources that do discuss those.
 
Brian63 said:
I am not at all able or interested in getting into any of the history debating myself.
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Then why do it?

Why not just stick to topics you do know about and express your opinions about those things? If all you want is to "present an unexpected point of view", maybe you ought not go?

"It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to talk and remove all doubt"

Tom
 
Because it is important to let them know there are other points of view out there besides the ones these End-Times prophets are likely to promote.

I have learned a lot about evolution not by just reading from biologists who espouse it, but also creationists or ID'ers who argue against it. I learn about the mistakes they make and am smarter on the topic as a result.

A person can also learn a lot more about politics and being better informed overall by consuming a wide variety of political views and information sources---rather than just one, even if that one is the most accurate.

It is good to introduce the idea of exposing them to a wide variety of sources and the importance of researching them, for the sake of being best informed.


ETA: I have had many religious discussions with Christians where biblical history comes up as one of many sub-issues and I do have a general line of argument for my view and makes a good case. For this specific thread though, I want specific named resources. Nothing more, nothing less.

So please do not suggest that I should not have this type of discussion with Christians. That is not what I am wanting this thread to be about.
 
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Brian63 said:
It is good to introduce the idea of exposing them to a wide variety of sources and the importance of researching them, for the sake of being best informed.
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You're sounding more and more like the kind of Christian that shows up at non-Christian events to make sure we understand how important it is that we research their opinions.

"for the sake of being best informed"
Tom
 
Please do not derail this thread.

This thread is for accumulating a list of counter-views to research further. That is all.

Thank you.
 
Brian63 said:
So please do not suggest that I should not have this type of discussion with Christians.
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I'm not suggesting any such thing.

I'm suggesting that you not invade their event. Especially not with poorly understood arguments that you just got off the internet.
Tom
 
Please let that be your last entry in this thread.

Thank you.
 
Part of all this is knowing history. Exodus tells us Moses and the Israelites avoiding going to Canaan by the coast for fear of the war-like Philistines. The Philistines invaded Egypt in the 8th year of Rameses III, who defeated them. Rameses III in his 25th year sent a military expedition to Syria without fear of the Philistines. Only duringthe reign of Rameses VI did he Egyptians abandon Canaan. By this time the earliest Israelites were setting up their hilltop farms. No time for the campigns of Moses and Joshua.

Israel's pseudo- history has no memory of the Egyptian - Hittite wars. No memory of Merneptah. No memory of the wars in Canaan of Thutmoses III, or Amenophis II. Cities named in that pseudo- history were created centuries after there supposed existence. The Pentateuch is filled with anachronism. Kings of Philistia many centuries before the Philistines were in Canaan.
 
Whenever biblical prophecy and history is brought up by evangelizing Christians, I keep the discussion general at first. They tend to be really impressed by vague prophecies, and I argue that more specific and precise prophecies would be more impressive. They also should not have the ability to be self-fulfilling.

Also I mention that I have done some reading arguing for biblical literalism, some arguing it is not historically reliable, etc. Little ole' Brian63 does not know much about the history back then, a lot of their claims and arguments are over my head and I have higher life priorities besides becoming an archaeologist to evaluate them. If an omni-god wanted me to know what happened, it could be a lot clearer on the matter with a snap of a finger.

I also explain philosophical arguments against a god. So even if I personally do not know the details of what happened thousands of years ago in some story, I still have good reason to believe a supernatural deity was not part of it.

Those are the types of responses I give, plus some more.



In this thread though, all I want are names of resources. I want to compile a list.
 
A few books to name drop.

Donald Redford, "Egypt Cannan, and Israel In Ancient Times"
Pretty Scathing about Bible pseudo- history

William H. Steibing Jr. "Out Of The Desert? - The Exodus Conquest Narratives"
A very though examination of the archeological findings and the claims of the Pentateuch. Unfortunately out of print. The many cities the Bible claims were destroyed by Moses or Johua weren't. Steibing examines the evidence city by city.

Nadav Na'aman editor "From Nomadism To Monarcchy - Archaeological And Historical Aspects Of Ancient Israel"
Bluntly states archeaology has debunked Biblical pseudo- history.
 
I'd say the problem has theists relligious answer for any challenge you can make.

If you do make a point they have no ready answer for they will just dismiss you as a non believer.
 
I have had those types of responses and I have counter-responses back. Sometimes they work, sometimes not, sometimes they may plant a seed that I do not see immediately but is still there.

Please keep this thread about "name-dropping" as Cheerful Charlie put it.

Thanks.
 
Brian63 said:
Whenever biblical prophecy and history is brought up by evangelizing Christians, I keep the discussion general at first. They tend to be really impressed by vague prophecies, and I argue that more specific and precise prophecies would be more impressive. They also should not have the ability to be self-fulfilling.

Also I mention that I have done some reading arguing for biblical literalism, some arguing it is not historically reliable, etc. Little ole' Brian63 does not know much about the history back then, a lot of their claims and arguments are over my head and I have higher life priorities besides becoming an archaeologist to evaluate them. If an omni-god wanted me to know what happened, it could be a lot clearer on the matter with a snap of a finger.

I also explain philosophical arguments against a god. So even if I personally do not know the details of what happened thousands of years ago in some story, I still have good reason to believe a supernatural deity was not part of it.

Those are the types of responses I give, plus some more.



In this thread though, all I want are names of resources. I want to compile a list.
Click to expand...

A problem here is your opponents have their own lists too. It is almost necesary to understand the details to put a sock on that. Otherwise it is just a shouting match without light.

How does the old saying go? There is no royal road to math? Same with Near East archaeology and the Bible.
 
That is fine to have their own lists. I am aware of their lists. They are largely unaware of other counter-lists though, and I augment my case by other philosophical arguments against a god existing and their weak acceptance of vague prophecies when an omni-god could make much more specific and powerful prophecies (if it wanted to). It is part of a package deal that I present.

Evangelist Christians often invoke Lee Strobel, an atheist who found the bible-evidence so compelling that he became Christian. Then I give my reasons for discrediting Strobel. I will not delve into them here as they are off topic. But just demonstrating that an atheist is already familiar with Strobel and possesses counterarguments is shocking to a lot of them. They had not considered that possibility.
 
How do you actually know I have not read them? I have read some. I also read counters. I already acknowledged that. So your summary is wrong. I explained that a lot of their claims I was unfamiliar with and did not have the scholarship credentials to evaluate. I did not say I never read any of their arguments. Please read and think better. Your strawman is showing.

My actual points consisted of:
1. Should people be aware that there are resources arguing for various views, and if they are going to read any then should they only read ones that already agree with their pre-existing view or should they also view ones that challenge that view? If it is a topic a person is not interested in researching at all, then fine. If they are though, it is better to read multiple views than just a single.
2. The mere act of alerting them to the existence of other scholarly views may be something new to them. Especially if there is an opportunity to discuss whether the group leaders encourage such research of various views or are they restrictive to only ones that agree with their pre-existing view.
 
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