The Christ Myth Theory

[Learner]

The bible narrative says 'the meek shall inherit the earth' etc..

Paul says that Jesus, in obedience (FAITH) to first-god, relinquished the perfection of the heavenly realm and humbled himself. The message is that Jesus suffered and that for those with FAITH—the dead do not die per se.

• Passion: to carry or bear a burdon​

from Latin passiō, ultimately from patior. Cognate with patience.
from Greek pathós (παθός) someone who experienced or underwent something e.g. an agony (a word originaly meaning: competition, battle).

• The education featured in the agōgē (ἀγωγά) involved cultivating loyalty to Sparta and paidagōgíā (παιδᾰγωγῐ́ᾱ ) through pain tolerance.

Yes, I would also say that is an apsect to 'faith' - Jesus having humbled himself, being human... and those that had faith would be saved, etc.. Humilty an example set by Jesus for his followers didn't start there. This trait 'to be humble' goes way back to the OT.... long before Paul, contextually understood like: 'the meek shall inherit the earth':

Proverbs 16:19
It is better to be humble in spirit with the lowly Than to divide the spoil with the proud.

Zephaniah 2:3
Seek the Lord, All you humble of the earth Who have carried out His ordinances;
Seek righteousness, seek humility. Perhaps you will be hidden In the day of the Lord’s anger.

Psalm 25:9
He leads the humble in justice, And He teaches the humble His way.

Proverbs 18:12
Before destruction the heart of man is haughty, But humility goes before honor.

Daniel 4:37
Now I, Nebuchadnezzar, praise, exalt and honor the King of heaven, for all His works are true and His ways just, and He is able to humble those who walk in pride.”

Isaiah 5:15
So the common man will be humbled and the man of importance abased,
The eyes of the proud also will be abased.

Proverbs 22:4
The reward of humility and the fear of the Lord, Are riches, honor and life.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

Those sentiments are universal because of disparities both within and between societies. Although much of the disparity is self-inflicted much more is environmentally dictated.

This alleged Jesus didn't cure disease. And I don't count the propagandistic tall tales where he was supernatural. If there really was a supernatural Jesus he missed the boat on disease and science, medicine and hospitals, the prime ways he could have helped humanity. Instead he is alleged to have performed magic tricks. Why was Gospel Jesus just another common bum in this regard?

 

[bilby]

Those sentiments are universal because of disparities both within and between societies. Although much of the disparity is self-inflicted much more is environmentally dictated.

This alleged Jesus didn't cure disease. And I don't count the propagandistic tall tales where he was supernatural. If there really was a supernatural Jesus he missed the boat on disease and science, medicine and hospitals, the prime ways he could have helped humanity. Instead he is alleged to have performed magic tricks. Why was Gospel Jesus just another common bum in this regard?

It's a good question. What's so impressive about curing a leper, when you could instead cure leprosy?

It's not even that difficult to cure leprosy. A couple of weeks of treatment with Rifampicin and Dapsone will do it.

There's a reason why leper colonies, and all the misery and suffering they entailed, continued their existence for two thousand years after Jesus's alleged miracles, but disappeared in the twentieth century without needing a miracle at all. We just decided we wanted to do it; worked out how to do it; and did it.

 

[dbz]

...because of disparities both within and between societies. Although much of the disparity is self-inflicted much more is environmentally dictated.

• In short, resources are limited.

We just decided we wanted to do it; worked out how to do it; and did it.

Rather, we evolved more optimal strategies to eat (survival) and fornicate (reproduction) that could eventually dead-end with extinction.

For commentary on the human strategies per survival and reproduction see:
"Evolution, Sex & Desire | David Buss | The JBP Podcast". YouTube. Jordan B Peterson.

[00:00] Intro

[02:09] Career Background

[01:23:29] Monogamy & Violence

[01:28:30] Inequality

[01:33:40] Why Strategies Differ

[01:42:45] Outro

 

[Learner]

Those sentiments are universal because of disparities both within and between societies. Although much of the disparity is self-inflicted much more is environmentally dictated.

Those sentiments are universal... yes of course - as it's written 'in the heart of the beholder'.

This alleged Jesus didn't cure disease. And I don't count the propagandistic tall tales where he was supernatural.
If there really was a supernatural Jesus he missed the boat on disease and science, medicine and hospitals, the prime ways he could have helped humanity.

The narrative is already set out... IF you've read it, there IS resolution. "Could have.."and "should have..." as according to 'your taste', doesn't indicate any "alledged" Jesus as according to your description, I quoted above.

Instead he is alleged to have performed magic tricks. Why was Gospel Jesus just another common bum in this regard?

Magic is by concept a name given for acts performed by tricksters, charlatans, mediums, fortunetellers, magicians, witches & wizards (the big tricks sometimes assisted by summoning spirits etc.) - all to which, are NOT of GOD, IOW. Critiquing the bible with a theist in discussion, lets at least be on the same page.

 

[atrib]

Magic is by concept a name given for acts performed by tricksters, charlatans, mediums, fortunetellers, magicians, witches & wizards (the big tricks sometimes assisted by summoning spirits etc.) - all to which, are NOT of GOD,

You are absolutely right. You often say really stupid stuff, but you are not stupid. You nailed the definition of magic, as distinguished from a miracle where the laws of the universe are actually broken.

Now for the hard part: demonstrate that the stories of Jesus performing miracles are true. Not people being deceived by skilled magicians, not people being lied to or making up stories, but actual miracles where the laws of the universe were broken. You can't do that.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

Magic is by concept a name given for acts performed by tricksters, charlatans, mediums, fortunetellers, magicians, witches & wizards (the big tricks sometimes assisted by summoning spirits etc.) - all to which, are NOT of GOD,

You are absolutely right. You often say really stupid stuff, but you are not stupid. You nailed the definition of magic, as distinguished from a miracle where the laws of the universe are actually broken.

Now for the hard part: demonstrate that the stories of Jesus performing miracles are true. Not people being deceived by skilled magicians, not people being lied to or making up stories, but actual miracles where the laws of the universe were broken. You can't do that.

Isn't that a distinction without a difference? Miracles don't happen and neither does magic. People just get fooled into believing something. In both cases there is supposedly a power or force at work and someone or something wielding that power. In the end miracles are just magic performed in a religious setting. We're supposed to believe the two things are different but that's just religious spin.

 

[bilby]

Magic is by concept a name given for acts performed by tricksters, charlatans, mediums, fortunetellers, magicians, witches & wizards (the big tricks sometimes assisted by summoning spirits etc.) - all to which, are NOT of GOD,

You are absolutely right. You often say really stupid stuff, but you are not stupid. You nailed the definition of magic, as distinguished from a miracle where the laws of the universe are actually broken.

Now for the hard part: demonstrate that the stories of Jesus performing miracles are true. Not people being deceived by skilled magicians, not people being lied to or making up stories, but actual miracles where the laws of the universe were broken. You can't do that.

Isn't that a distinction without a difference? Miracles don't happen and neither does magic. People just get fooled into believing something. In both cases there is supposedly a power or force at work and someone or something wielding that power. In the end miracles are just magic performed in a religious setting. We're supposed to believe the two things are different but that's just religious spin.

The word "miracle" just means 'magic, but not the bad kind that's not done by my God, only the good kind that my God does'.

The history of Christian thought shows that both are believed to be real, and are indistinguishable, other than in moral value. It's a bit pointless to hang a man as a witch if he's just pretending to do magic; His crime is that he's employing powers that are reserved to God alone. It's a patent infringement.

 

[steve_bank]

I knew an vangelcal who absolutely belived in faith healing. He trabed to a cener for it in Ca somewhere.

He had a list of mrcale cures dedicated to faith healing. He had a list of allrged miracle cures taken as fact, but he never saw it happen. One was something abut a person in Afruca who blindness was cured. The claim was people saw milky eye cleared as they watched.

 

[dbz]

This article argues that the dendritic (tree-like) or traditional model of Christian origins must be replaced with a plectic (braid-like) model. The dendritic model assumes that Christianity began at a specific point in both time and space—in the person of “Jesus of Nazareth”—and then branched out to form the various ancient sects of Christianity. This article asks: What if the numerous forms of “Christianity” did not all derive from a single historical figure? What if these earliest “Christianities” arose in the same way that the different forms and varieties of Egyptian, Indic, and Greco-Roman religions evolved? A new paradigm is proposed where the various forms of Christianity can be envisioned as forming by the coalescence of various threads (or trajectories) of religious tradition. Some of the threads may trace back into the mists of prehistory, others may trace to the turn of the current era, and still others may have begun in the second or third centuries CE. Not all early forms of Christianity contained the same threads. Not all threads stayed in the braid for long, and still others continued into the present. After entering the braid, threads of tradition evolved, bifurcated, branched off, or were absorbed into other traditions. Clearly, this is what we see happening today as multitudinous sects, cults, and denominations continue to arise and go extinct. As in historical geology, so too in religious history: The present is the key to the past.

Zindler, Frank R. (1 August 2022). "A New Paradigm for the Study of Christian Origins: Replacing the Dendritic Model". Socio-Historical Examination of Religion and Ministry. 4 (1): 114–152. doi:10.33929/sherm.2022.vol4.no1.08.

The edited volume, Varieties of Jesus Mythicism, aims to present diverse approaches and theories to the debate on Jesus’ historical existence. While it includes several enlightening and worthwhile contributions, there are too many amateur contributions employing dubious claims and methodologies. The result is that, apart from the few worthy contributions, the book as a whole is only useful for comparing poor with genuine scholarship. And some advice on how to make such a comparison, so as to distinguish the one from the other, is here provided.

Carrier, Richard (1 August 2022). "Book Review: Varieties of Jesus Mythicism". Socio-Historical Examination of Religion and Ministry. 4 (1): 171–192. doi:10.33929/sherm.2022.vol4.no1.10.

 

[SIB]

To me, religion and god belief are different. They do have a huge overlap for some tho.

The belief in some thing more (whatever that is) is more reliable than the reverse belief.

That doesn't mean any one religion's god is the only way. Some theist and atheist just do not understand that so they cling to their their statement of belief about god like its the truer than true. So be it, they need it. Just keep it out of law making.

 

[dbz]

To me, religion and god belief are different.
[. . .]
The belief in some thing more (whatever that is) is more reliable than the reverse belief.

Per "The belief in some thing more (whatever that is) is more "reliable"—in terms of an optimal "survive and reproduce" strategy at a species level which carries over to the IN-group v. OUT-group competition for resources to "survive and reproduce" which carries over to the XX&XY status hierarchies optimal distribution (relative to the species "survive and reproduce" strategy) of limited survival resources and reproduction opportunities.

Given that Nash equilibrium and other strategy can alter "optimal" relative to the species/group/individual.

IMO evolutionary psychology explain both religion and god belief.

For commentary on XX&XY status hierarchies, see @ "Evolution, Sex & Desire | David Buss | #235". YouTube. Jordan B Peterson:

[00:00] Intro [02:09] Career Background [06:50] Human Mating Strategies [09:18] Patriarchy & Mating [10:52] Female Preferences & Resource Acquisition [14:54] Sexual Selection Theory: An Overview [25:23] Patriarchy: Origins

[27:36] (Dominance) Hierarchies

[40:20] Women & the Dark Triad (Narcissism, Machiavelianism, & Psychopathy) [57:59] Attention & (Fe)male Selection [01:04:24] Violence [01:07:47] Emotional Regulation & Status [01:13:59] Disturbing Ethical Conclusions [01:20:25] (Fe)male Aggression [01:23:29] Monogamy & Violence [01:28:30] Inequality [01:33:40] Why Strategies Differ [01:42:45] Outro

 

[SIB]

To me, religion and god belief are different.
[. . .]
The belief in some thing more (whatever that is) is more reliable than the reverse belief.

Per "The belief in some thing more (whatever that is) is more "reliable"—in terms of an optimal "survive and reproduce" strategy at a species level which carries over to the IN-group v. OUT-group competition for resources to "survive and reproduce" which carries over to the XX&XY status hierarchies optimal distribution (relative to the species "survive and reproduce" strategy) of limited survival resources and reproduction opportunities.

Given that Nash equilibrium and other strategy can alter "optimal" relative to the species/group/individual.

IMO evolutionary psychology explain both religion and god belief.

For commentary on XX&XY status hierarchies, see @ "Evolution, Sex & Desire | David Buss | #235". YouTube. Jordan B Peterson:

[00:00] Intro [02:09] Career Background [06:50] Human Mating Strategies [09:18] Patriarchy & Mating [10:52] Female Preferences & Resource Acquisition [14:54] Sexual Selection Theory: An Overview [25:23] Patriarchy: Origins

[27:36] (Dominance) Hierarchies

[40:20] Women & the Dark Triad (Narcissism, Machiavelianism, & Psychopathy) [57:59] Attention & (Fe)male Selection [01:04:24] Violence [01:07:47] Emotional Regulation & Status [01:13:59] Disturbing Ethical Conclusions [01:20:25] (Fe)male Aggression [01:23:29] Monogamy & Violence [01:28:30] Inequality [01:33:40] Why Strategies Differ [01:42:45] Outro

1/2 way. You are half way there.

Evolution brought us to this point. "evolution", more precisely the unaversive, has created us so that we can now can look around and evaluate our place in the system. I like to start at the best baseline truth we have. so i ask myself ...

So what is a more reliable stance?

we are part of some thing more.
or
we are not?

that, in no way implies a deity to me. But it aint nothing either.

 

[dbz]

Evolution brought us to this point. "evolution", more precisely the unaversive, has created us so that we can now can look around and evaluate our place in the system.

We are at a juncture where "evolution" can be manipulated for "optimal results"!

The question is whose "optimal results"? Humanity has an atavistic devil on one shoulder and an ad astra angel on the other!

 

[dbz]

What did Yesus teach?

• The end is nigh, REPENT!

Per the historical personage Jesus b. Joseph/Pantera, whom I have given the moniker Yesus. Bart Ehrman holds the viewpoint that Yesus was a Jewish preacher and teacher—crucified during the reign of Pontius Pilate. Ehrman indicates that he believes that Yesus was born into poverty and was either a carpenter or a carpenter’s son. He began his public ministry while trapped in a poverty-stricken lower-class life. He was an “The end is nigh! Repent!” type of preacher. He was baptized by John the Baptist. He “raised the ire of Pharisees,” causing a ruckus in the Temple but not at the scale depicted by the Gospels. Pilate personally ordered his crucifixion after a brief trial at the beginning of Pesach, the holiest holiday of them all. Roman soldiers flogged Yesus on his way to the Cross, and he was dead within six hours.

What did second-god teach?

• I will be to you a redeemer GOD!

Cf. Godfrey, Neil (2 December 2010). “The Second God among Ancient Jewish Philosophers and Commoners”. Vridar.

 

[dbz]

"Did The Greco-Roman Elite Class Write The Gospels?! - Professor Robyn Faith Walsh". YouTube. History Valley. 24 May 2022.

2:12 ...I consider [the gospel authors] elite culture or elite persons within a particular you know stratum of culture .. those who have access to what's called Paideia, so advanced education in the ancient world, and the number of people who actually had that kind of advanced education was really really narrow...

22:01 [Q: What else what led you to the conclusion that it's possible that Christians actually didn't write the gospels] Well this is something that I've been a little surprised that people have taken away from the book, because what I say in the book is that I'm interested in what's the most formative group that we can attribute the content of the gospels to...

 

[steve_bank]

I was not familiar with the term but I go with plectic or braided model.

I expect literacy not unlike today means functional literacy. The ability to read and write and understand at a basic level. Wide open to superstition and influence.

The Jesus of the gospels appears to have been educated, but he also appeared to hang out with the bottom of the pecking order who would not have been literate. He was not associating with the Jewish elite who would have been better educated.

 

[Learner]

Magic is by concept a name given for acts performed by tricksters, charlatans, mediums, fortunetellers, magicians, witches & wizards (the big tricks sometimes assisted by summoning spirits etc.) - all to which, are NOT of GOD,

You are absolutely right. You often say really stupid stuff, but you are not stupid. You nailed the definition of magic, as distinguished from a miracle where the laws of the universe are actually broken.

I'm glad someone agrees with the contextual differences (even if you're entertaining the idea at least, getting the theist/biblical viewpoint ).

Now for the hard part: demonstrate that the stories of Jesus performing miracles are true. Not people being deceived by skilled magicians, not people being lied to or making up stories, but actual miracles where the laws of the universe were broken. You can't do that.

You are correct Atrib... I can't do it. Obviously to demonstrate those miracles to be true... It would have to be Jesus Himself, who would need to be in front of you, for you to see ( If it was I, who appeared to be doing some illusionary miracle, I would probably be a magician). It's not a sufficient good enough answer I know, especially when it comes to 'repeating' or trying to demonstrate 'how' miracles are performed by altering the laws of physics etc..

 

[bilby]

Magic is by concept a name given for acts performed by tricksters, charlatans, mediums, fortunetellers, magicians, witches & wizards (the big tricks sometimes assisted by summoning spirits etc.) - all to which, are NOT of GOD,

You are absolutely right. You often say really stupid stuff, but you are not stupid. You nailed the definition of magic, as distinguished from a miracle where the laws of the universe are actually broken.

I'm glad someone agrees with the contextual differences (even if you're entertaining the idea at least, getting the theist viewpoint ).

Now for the hard part: demonstrate that the stories of Jesus performing miracles are true. Not people being deceived by skilled magicians, not people being lied to or making up stories, but actual miracles where the laws of the universe were broken. You can't do that.

You are correct Atrib... I can't do it. Obviously to demonstrate those miracles to be true... It would have to be Jesus Himself, who would need to be in front of you ( If it was I, who appeared to be doing some illusionary miracle, I would probably be a magician). It's not a sufficient good enough answer I know, especially when it comes to 'repeating' or trying to demonstrate 'how' miracles are performed by altering the laws of physics etc..

When every single person who does something apparently impossible, and who has been checked out, has turned out to be a magician, it's more than a little unwise to accept a claim that someone who wasn't checked out, and can't be because he's been dead for two thousand years, was the one solitary instance of a genuine miracle worker.

So what justification do you have for taking such an unwise stance?

It looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck. Every single time we have checked out such a thing, it has always turned out to be a duck. What reason could you possibly have to believe that on this one single occasion, it's a goose on the way to a fancy dress party?

 

[Learner]

Magic is by concept a name given for acts performed by tricksters, charlatans, mediums, fortunetellers, magicians, witches & wizards (the big tricks sometimes assisted by summoning spirits etc.) - all to which, are NOT of GOD,

You are absolutely right. You often say really stupid stuff, but you are not stupid. You nailed the definition of magic, as distinguished from a miracle where the laws of the universe are actually broken.

Now for the hard part: demonstrate that the stories of Jesus performing miracles are true. Not people being deceived by skilled magicians, not people being lied to or making up stories, but actual miracles where the laws of the universe were broken. You can't do that.

Isn't that a distinction without a difference? Miracles don't happen and neither does magic. People just get fooled into believing something. In both cases there is supposedly a power or force at work and someone or something wielding that power. In the end miracles are just magic performed in a religious setting. We're supposed to believe the two things are different but that's just religious spin.

I'd like to keep up with the times. Why not? I was born into the modern world....

... God with His advanced know how, should be very advanced in science. Magic is as steady as pseudo science.

"Let there be reversals of magnetic polarities in solid objects, so that man can float like the angels in the clouds.." sayeth the Lord of Physics!