Anti-CRT Hysteria

[Elixir]

When was the last time anyone was lynched? Why are using that as an example? Horse and cattle rustling doesn't happen much anymore.

Stop being intentionally obtuse... what's that word - coy?
You know perfectly well that I was talking about the SPECTRUM of HARMS wrought by systemic racism, putting lynchings on one end and Harvard admissions on the other. The dates of most recent infraction are as irrelevant to the point as the price of cheese in macedonia.
There is good reason you didn't argue the point: you can't.

 

[Metaphor]

When was the last time anyone was lynched? Why are using that as an example? Horse and cattle rustling doesn't happen much anymore.

Stop being intentionally obtuse... what's that word - coy?
You know perfectly well that I was talking about the SPECTRUM of HARMS wrought by systemic racism, putting lynchings on one end and Harvard admissions on the other. The dates of most recent infraction are as irrelevant to the point as the price of cheese in macedonia.
There is good reason you didn't argue the point: you can't.

The dates are entirely relevant because the current incidence is what matters.

Systemically racist acts that happened in the past, are no longer active, and have no current institutional support should get less airtime than systemically racist acts happening right now and that not only have institutional support, powerful institutions are leading the practice.

 

[Ford]

When was the last time anyone was lynched? Why are using that as an example? Horse and cattle rustling doesn't happen much anymore.

Stop being intentionally obtuse... what's that word - coy?
You know perfectly well that I was talking about the SPECTRUM of HARMS wrought by systemic racism, putting lynchings on one end and Harvard admissions on the other. The dates of most recent infraction are as irrelevant to the point as the price of cheese in macedonia.
There is good reason you didn't argue the point: you can't.

The dates are entirely relevant because the current incidence is what matters.

Systemically racist acts that happened in the past, are no longer active, and have no current institutional support should get less airtime than systemically racist acts happening right now and that not only have institutional support, powerful institutions are leading the practice.

Congratulations, current America! We've overcome racism! There is none of it now, and there will never be racism again! Because Obama!

Wow...we're so diverse! Here's a fun activity...ask your POC neighbor at the office how they feel about no longer being discriminated against! I'm sure they'll say "gosh darn it...you're right! As a (fill in the blank minority) I'm totally no longer experiencing discrimination!"

Yep. It's all fine now. Nothing to see here.

 

[Metaphor]

When was the last time anyone was lynched? Why are using that as an example? Horse and cattle rustling doesn't happen much anymore.

Stop being intentionally obtuse... what's that word - coy?
You know perfectly well that I was talking about the SPECTRUM of HARMS wrought by systemic racism, putting lynchings on one end and Harvard admissions on the other. The dates of most recent infraction are as irrelevant to the point as the price of cheese in macedonia.
There is good reason you didn't argue the point: you can't.

The dates are entirely relevant because the current incidence is what matters.

Systemically racist acts that happened in the past, are no longer active, and have no current institutional support should get less airtime than systemically racist acts happening right now and that not only have institutional support, powerful institutions are leading the practice.

Congratulations, current America! We've overcome racism! There is none of it now, and there will never be racism again! Because Obama!

Because straw man!

Wow...we're so diverse! Here's a fun activity...ask your POC neighbor at the office how they feel about no longer being discriminated against!

Because straw man!

I'm sure they'll say "gosh darn it...you're right! As a (fill in the blank minority) I'm totally no longer experiencing discrimination!"

Yep. It's all fine now. Nothing to see here.

Because straw man!

 

[Cheerful Charlie]

When was the last time anyone was lynched? Why are using that as an example? Horse and cattle rustling doesn't happen much anymore.

Stop being intentionally obtuse... what's that word - coy?
You know perfectly well that I was talking about the SPECTRUM of HARMS wrought by systemic racism, putting lynchings on one end and Harvard admissions on the other. The dates of most recent infraction are as irrelevant to the point as the price of cheese in macedonia.
There is good reason you didn't argue the point: you can't.

Savagery and brutality still occur. Joseph Byrd, a black man dragged to death behind a pickup. Trayvon Martin. A black jogger kill by three white racist. A policeman kneling on a man's neck for 9 minutes. And more.

 

[Ford]

When was the last time anyone was lynched? Why are using that as an example? Horse and cattle rustling doesn't happen much anymore.

Stop being intentionally obtuse... what's that word - coy?
You know perfectly well that I was talking about the SPECTRUM of HARMS wrought by systemic racism, putting lynchings on one end and Harvard admissions on the other. The dates of most recent infraction are as irrelevant to the point as the price of cheese in macedonia.
There is good reason you didn't argue the point: you can't.

Savagery and brutality still occur. Joseph Byrd, a black man dragged to death behind a pickup. Trayvon Martin. A black jogger kill by three white racist. A policeman kneling on a man's neck for 9 minutes. And more.

Yep.

I've told the story here before, but one of my trainees at my job was a young (23) black man in a hoodie. Great guy. Smart, ambitious, and he'll go on to do great things. Yet the institutional racism was so baked into the cake that he accepted it as part of his existence.

"Yeah, I get it. I'm black."

Jay had a good job, made decent money, had worked for a huge company at the corporate level, but when he walked into a store he was followed by the staff on suspicion of robbing the place. He was routinely pulled over for "driving while black," and it was alarming how much he'd integrated that into his everyday life. His mother worried that as a young black man in a hoodie he'd be at risk, but that wasn't shocking.

It was routine. Incidental to his very existence. He was young and black, and had folded the fact that he could be shot at any moment by a racist cop into his everyday life so completely you almost didn't notice. He knew that he was seen as a "thug" from the get-go, and couldn't do anything about it.

But there's no systemic racism...right?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

... CRT fans have labeled the common practice of loan officers requiring bigger down payments on properties in areas where property values aren't expected to appreciate "systemic racism". Normal people don't call that "racism". They call it "Duh!".

Unavailability of large mortgages will depress prices, leading to a vicious cycle. That is "systemic." If property values aren't "expected" to appreciate because of occupants' race, that is — never mind who, if anyone, is to "blame" — a form of "racism."

Duh, yourself!

It has nothing to do with the occupant's race, but rather how the neighborhood is faring. Neighborhoods people don't want to live in have little appreciation and thus are riskier to loan to.

As with so much of the "racism" this is actually a socioeconomic thing, not racism. Just because it disproportionately hits blacks doesn't make it racism.

You keep saying this yet you never provide evidence for it.

Off the top of my head, I've already pointed out that locally it's entirely the location of the house that matters, not the race of the borrower--and it only applies to low down mortgages, not 80/20 mortgages. Occam's razor, it's economic (one factor: bankers evaluated the expected future loan to value, this was not in the data the government used and so it's a very easy factor), not racial (why do they discriminate against these blacks but not other blacks? A much more complex factor.) I haven't seen this proven on a national scale but given how hard they tried to claim racism here I think the national picture must be no better--if they have any substantial actual proof of discrimination they're not going to be trying to make something of bogus claims. You can tell a lot about how solid a position is by how solid the evidence they promote is. They're going to put their best evidence forward, so if what they put forward is shaky it's unlikely they have anything better.

Another one off the top of my head: blacks receiving inferior care in the ER. Oops--control for the hospital and the effect goes away. Everyone receives inferior care in overloaded, underfunded inner city ERs.

The pattern repeats itself--control for economic factors and race drops out of the picture. Notably, the research that "proves" widespread discrimination almost universally fails to control for economic factors.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

As with so much of the "racism" this is actually a socioeconomic thing, not racism.

Most of the socioeconomic thing included blacks not being able to move into suburbs WHERE THERE WAS NO REDLINING! You keep looking at this problem from one angle and refuse to see the bigger picture.

A: Banks refused to put money into areas with perceived limited growth potential.
B: Well, why didn't minorities just move to the suburbs?
A: They couldn't get people to sell them homes... or it was even forbidden.
B: So the minorities had to stay within the redlined areas where investment from banks would be terminated?
A: Well... I suppose... but the red-lined areas weren't because minorities lived there, only because there wouldn't be any growth.
B: Because only poor people lived there.
A: EXACTLY!
B: But those people wouldn't be allowed to move elsewhere and gain from wealth growth in the suburbs.
A: YES! And the banks were right! The red lined areas did depress in value.
B: Because the banks didn't invest there.
A: Sure, but it wasn't racism... just flat out harmless and blind economics.
B: So minorities were effectively forced to stay in areas that'd become poorer and the lack of bank investment would lead to housing value decline, making it impossible to upkeep the properties, and any attempt to venture in to areas of greener pastures were halted by covenants, by laws, or any such restrictions.
A: Don't forget the pool houses were closed to the public and made private to keep minorities out of them.
B: But that wasn't racism.
A: Nope, just pure Randistic Utopian Economics.

Imagining that it was that way doesn't make it so.

Remember where I live. It's not a usual city, this place wasn't much of anything before the coming of widespread air conditioning. There wasn't much of anything here in the Jim Crow era. Thus whatever happened back then will have virtually nothing to do with our housing markets.

And why would they only redline low-down mortgages?? There's no such pattern with 80-20 mortgages. It takes a lot of twisting to make a coherent position that the banks caused what we see locally.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Good grief! That amounts to arguing that it's inappropriate to have a law against government preaching your religion, but it's perfectly appropriate to have a law against government preaching your neighbor's religion, because government preaching your neighbor's religion is illegal. It amounts to saying that's what the law is; therefore that's what the law ought to be.

You seem to not understand.

What religion you preach is entirely your business. What religion your neighbor preaches is entirely their business. So long as you're not too disruptive about it preach whatever you want.

Where we care is when you try to use state power to either preach, or to enforce the behavior of your religion. Take a sledgehammer to any camel's nose that peeks under the state tent.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Perhaps you have a better term to describe discrimination based on race

Affirmative Action?

Funny. But a little like defining “car” as “Yugo”. You know what a Yugo is, don’t you?

Notably, the Yugo is (was? Does it still exist??) a car. You're trying to laugh off the fact that affirmative action is a form of racism.

 

[Elixir]

When was the last time anyone was lynched? Why are using that as an example? Horse and cattle rustling doesn't happen much anymore.

Stop being intentionally obtuse... what's that word - coy?
You know perfectly well that I was talking about the SPECTRUM of HARMS wrought by systemic racism, putting lynchings on one end and Harvard admissions on the other. The dates of most recent infraction are as irrelevant to the point as the price of cheese in macedonia.
There is good reason you didn't argue the point: you can't.

Savagery and brutality still occur. Joseph Byrd, a black man dragged to death behind a pickup. Trayvon Martin. A black jogger kill by three white racist. A policeman kneling on a man's neck for 9 minutes. And more.

Yabut Sally ended up at USC because of Harvard’s admissions policies! Talk about unfair …

 

[Loren Pechtel]

The dates are entirely relevant because the current incidence is what matters.

Systemically racist acts that happened in the past, are no longer active, and have no current institutional support should get less airtime than systemically racist acts happening right now and that not only have institutional support, powerful institutions are leading the practice.

Congratulations, current America! We've overcome racism! There is none of it now, and there will never be racism again! Because Obama!

Wow...we're so diverse! Here's a fun activity...ask your POC neighbor at the office how they feel about no longer being discriminated against! I'm sure they'll say "gosh darn it...you're right! As a (fill in the blank minority) I'm totally no longer experiencing discrimination!"

Yep. It's all fine now. Nothing to see here.

Sorry, but he's right. We can't change the past, what has happened has happened. All we can change is the future. Making a big issue of past lynchings isn't going to save anybody from a noose. Making an issue of present discrimination can keep others from being discriminated against.

 

[Swammerdami]

... CRT fans have labeled the common practice of loan officers requiring bigger down payments on properties in areas where property values aren't expected to appreciate "systemic racism". Normal people don't call that "racism". They call it "Duh!".

Unavailability of large mortgages will depress prices, leading to a vicious cycle. That is "systemic." If property values aren't "expected" to appreciate because of occupants' race, that is — never mind who, if anyone, is to "blame" — a form of "racism."

Duh, yourself!

It has nothing to do with the occupant's race, but rather how the neighborhood is faring. Neighborhoods people don't want to live in have little appreciation and thus are riskier to loan to.

As with so much of the "racism" this is actually a socioeconomic thing, not racism. Just because it disproportionately hits blacks doesn't make it racism.

You keep saying this yet you never provide evidence for it.

Off the top of my head, I've already pointed out that locally it's entirely the location of the house that matters, not the race of the borrower--and it only applies to low down mortgages, not 80/20 mortgages. Occam's razor, it's economic (one factor: bankers evaluated the expected future loan to value, this was not in the data the government used and so it's a very easy factor), not racial (why do they discriminate against these blacks but not other blacks? A much more complex factor.) I haven't seen this proven on a national scale but given how hard they tried to claim racism here I think the national picture must be no better--if they have any substantial actual proof of discrimination they're not going to be trying to make something of bogus claims. You can tell a lot about how solid a position is by how solid the evidence they promote is. They're going to put their best evidence forward, so if what they put forward is shaky it's unlikely they have anything better.

Another one off the top of my head: blacks receiving inferior care in the ER. Oops--control for the hospital and the effect goes away. Everyone receives inferior care in overloaded, underfunded inner city ERs.

The pattern repeats itself--control for economic factors and race drops out of the picture. Notably, the research that "proves" widespread discrimination almost universally fails to control for economic factors.

You tell us, "off the top of your head", that borrower's race is "irrelevant" — (wasn't the claim that neighborhood race was the correlation?) — but do you have academic citations?

I've attached some top Google hits that use real-world data to allege systemic racism in housing prices. Can you cite academic paper(s) showing the flaws in these studies? Or must we rely strictly on the "top of your head"?

https://osf.io/preprints/socarxiv/rp3ed

https://www.nber.org/system/files/working_papers/w29306/w29306.pdf

https://americanprogress.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/BorrowersOfColor-report.pdf

https://www.hocmn.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/REPORT_UnderstandingHomeownershipDisparities.pdf

https://www.aclu.org/sites/default/files/field_document/discrimlend_final.pdf

https://static1.squarespace.com/static/5d70140860791400013fe3ce/t/6154a7aed71b142481211fc2/1632937937212/The+Racial+Wealth+Gap+is+the+Housing+Gap.pdf

https://www.urban.org/sites/default/files/publication/101160/explaining_the_black-white_homeownership_gap_a_closer_look_at_disparities_across_local_markets_0.pdf

 

[Ford]

The dates are entirely relevant because the current incidence is what matters.

Systemically racist acts that happened in the past, are no longer active, and have no current institutional support should get less airtime than systemically racist acts happening right now and that not only have institutional support, powerful institutions are leading the practice.

Congratulations, current America! We've overcome racism! There is none of it now, and there will never be racism again! Because Obama!

Wow...we're so diverse! Here's a fun activity...ask your POC neighbor at the office how they feel about no longer being discriminated against! I'm sure they'll say "gosh darn it...you're right! As a (fill in the blank minority) I'm totally no longer experiencing discrimination!"

Yep. It's all fine now. Nothing to see here.

Sorry, but he's right. We can't change the past, what has happened has happened. All we can change is the future. Making a big issue of past lynchings isn't going to save anybody from a noose. Making an issue of present discrimination can keep others from being discriminated against.

So as the old saying goes, "those who don't learn from history....actually, never mind. History is not important. We don't need to learn from it or even consider it. If your parents or grandparents or everyone you know was discriminated against, you need to pull up your bootstraps and get over it, snowflake.!"

Yes, denying that there was any history of discrimination is the best way to prevent it today.

I can't wait to tell my Native American friends that white people have decided that all is forgiven!

 

[Shadowy Man]

Ok. No more racism, starting… … … now!

All good?

 

[Gospel]

Perhaps you have a better term to describe discrimination based on race

Affirmative Action?

Funny. But a little like defining “car” as “Yugo”. You know what a Yugo is, don’t you?

Notably, the Yugo is (was? Does it still exist??) a car. You're trying to laugh off the fact that affirmative action is a form of racism.

Affirmative action was put in place by a bunch of white people to protect black people from discriminative practices. Saying it's a form of racism is true at face value however misleading when not within context. It's funny watching white people blame black people for something white people did. Then demand black people stop blaming today's white people for the shit white people did in the past while ignoring the problems of today which was caused by said white people in the past. You're getting blamed for ignoring what caused the problems that exist today ya big dummy!

 

[Metaphor]

Perhaps you have a better term to describe discrimination based on race

Affirmative Action?

Funny. But a little like defining “car” as “Yugo”. You know what a Yugo is, don’t you?

Notably, the Yugo is (was? Does it still exist??) a car. You're trying to laugh off the fact that affirmative action is a form of racism.

Affirmative action was put in place by a bunch of white people to protect black people from discriminative practices. Saying it's a form of racism is true at face value however misleading when not within context. It's funny watching white people blame black people for something white people did.

Who was blaming black people?

 

[Jarhyn]

Spoiler: it's blaming black people for shit white people did when we blame black people for remaining, as a population, in the lower economic rungs of our society as if it was something that any sane black person would choose, offered a decent education or no; white people invented that world. This is not to say black people couldn't have invented it had tables been turned for whatever reason, but rather that occasionally equalization has to happen so that natural sorting can be validated.

 

[ZiprHead]

Perhaps you have a better term to describe discrimination based on race

Affirmative Action?

Funny. But a little like defining “car” as “Yugo”. You know what a Yugo is, don’t you?

Notably, the Yugo is (was? Does it still exist??) a car. You're trying to laugh off the fact that affirmative action is a form of racism.

The Yugo was the only car to ever actually fall off the Mackinaw Bridge.

 

[Elixir]

The Yugo was the only car to ever actually fall off the Mackinaw Bridge.

And Harvard Admissions is the only systemically racist entity to incur the wrath of trumpsucking racists.