• Welcome to the new Internet Infidels Discussion Board, formerly Talk Freethought.

National Debt And Stuff

The focus on "running up debt" is on the potential future costs of that debt while it ignores the actual and potential benefits stemming from the deficit spending. The insistent on repayment and its potential costs ignores the fact that gov'ts have sources of repayment that neither households or firms have.

It is true the US debt is historically high. Whether it is too high, is a matter of opinion but that opinions are easier to take seriously when they are based on bad analysis.
 
How much debt is too much?

Is the national debt too high? Are the annual deficits too high?
No.

How could they be?

Are you worried about running out of numbers?
So then, instead of $1 or $2 trillion, the deficit could be raised to $5 or $10 trillion and that would be fine? not worse?
Tylenol will kill you if you take 5 times the recommended dosage.
No, the above How could the dosage ever be too high? challenge says it will not kill you.

Why would that much be "too high"? Bilby's rebuttal above means 5 times is OK, or even 10 times. Because no amounts of Tylenol could be "too high" -- his "How could they be?" refutes you. Also you're rebutted by the above "Are you worried about running out of numbers?" cleverness.

Therefore, Tylenol isn't effective at managing pain and fever.
Not in excess dosages, just as our recent excess debt dosages are ineffective. Debt is ineffective when it's based only on the premise that the way to pay it back is with later increased debt.

There's probably evidence that moderate Tylenol dosages are effective. But what is the evidence that our (excess) dosages of public deficit since 1930 have been effective? We did not have such dosages earlier in history when there were recessions and stock market crashes just as bad as 1929 but which ended after a year or 2 or 3.

(1929-30 was not a serious recession. '31 was, and it's not until '32 that it got bad. The only victims in 29-30 were some investors who leaped out of high-story Wall St. windows.)

The worst debt/GDP ratio in the 30s was 1932: https://www.google.com/search?q=deb...kgEDMC42mAEAoAEByAEIwAEB&sclient=gws-wiz-serp , beginning with Hoover, not FDR, and preceding most of the Great Depression damage dragging on into the 40s.

If this and similar excess deficits following were "effective" to fix the economy, why is it that the Depression lasted on and on until the War? No U.S. depression earlier in history ever lasted so long and severely.

So, what is the evidence that these unprecedented high deficits in the early 30s were effective or did anything to fix the economy? Each year that another high deficit was enacted, that new debt was passed on to future decades, 5 or 10 years later, imposing a new burden onto those later taxpayers which they wouldn't have had otherwise. How was that later burden something good? How do you prove that your "economic stimulus" debt remedy and cost burden to be paid 5-10 years later makes an improvement, when it produces no recognizable improvement compared to the earlier depressions when the same problem existed and yet the outcome was just as good or better than when your remedy was used?

Our better overall living standard today is obviously not a result of any political "economic stimulus" gimmick, like in the 1930s, but of improved science/technology, just like the good years of the late 1990s were a result of the tech boom.

If you can cite economists today saying our recent 120% debt/GDP (and higher) is just fine and should continue at this level or higher as we continue to raise the debt ceiling, and a 140% or 150% ratio will not be excess, what is their evidence? or their reasoning, other than Bilby's point that there's no limit and the debt could never be "too high"?

What about even 200%? or 250%, which at this rate will happen according to most predictions (not exaggerations)? When it reaches those levels in the coming decades, at this rate of continuing to increase it and condemning anything that questions it, will we still continue to sloganize that these are necessary to "stimulate the economy"? even though no one can offer any evidence? Why was 80% the maximum (according to the experts) back in the 1980s and 90s, but not today? What are the new facts which make those earlier experts wrong?

I always hate the 5x to 10x (or exaggeration) fallacy.
But not the exaggeration that the debt can't ever get too high? That exaggeration is OK, or anything else which spurs us on to higher and higher debt? Why is it exaggeration to question the higher-debt religion but not an exaggeration to fantasize that the debt could never be too high? or that there's unlimited power to create fiat money to pay unlimited debt because debt can't ever be too high?

best answer: any exaggeration is OK which gives higher priority to instant gratification over the long-term good.
 
@ Lumpen Lumpen Lumpen. PLEASE pay attention!

First of all, those arguing with you are NOT all of one voice. In my case, you are "preaching to the converted" when you denounce excessive debt. Yesterday I linked to a Youtube in which one expert expects "debt to be monetized" via "an inflation tax." Ever-growing debt is one of several trends that make the global economy very fragile. I'll attract derision from the bilbys on the Board but I plan to buy more gold. It's not that I think gold is a particularly promising long-term asset class; it's that currencies are NOT.

Where I differ from Mr. Lumpen, as I've tried to explain to him over and over and over, is that the stupid Congressional debt ceiling is NOT an intelligent way to seek deficit reduction. Lumpen hinted at self-awareness earlier when he suggested that POTUS would have tricks to circumvent the ceiling. Like what? The simplest trickery is to mint the infamous platinum coin but Lumpen seems uninterested in discussing that.

And regardless of whether "excessive debt is bad" or not, Lumpen is operating from mistaken facts.

... But what is the evidence that our (excess) dosages of public deficit since 1930 have been effective? We did not have such dosages earlier in history when there were recessions and stock market crashes just as bad as 1929 but which ended after a year or 2 or 3.

(1929-30 was not a serious recession. '31 was, and it's not until '32 that it got bad. The only victims in 29-30 were some investors who leaped out of high-story Wall St. windows.)

The worst debt/GDP ratio in the 30s was 1932: https://www.google.com/search?q=deb...kgEDMC42mAEAoAEByAEIwAEB&sclient=gws-wiz-serp , beginning with Hoover, not FDR, and preceding most of the Great Depression damage dragging on into the 40s.

If this and similar excess deficits following were "effective" to fix the economy, why is it that the Depression lasted on and on until the War? No U.S. depression earlier in history ever lasted so long and severely.

It appears you didn't even examine your own link. And WTF sort of link is that anyway?? A Google search query??? :confused2: If the query turned up a useful graph or page why not ... I dunno ... LINK to the useful graph or page!? Here is the top hit from that query; I base the following on it.

Almost every sentence in the quoted excerpt is WRONG! Recessions prior to 1929 DID last for several years. In 1932 Hoover raised taxes and the depression worsened. Duh! In 1933 debt increased and so did GDP. Duh! Do you see what is written next to 1936? "Tax hikes renewed depression." Duh!

Does this help?
 
@ Lumpen Lumpen Lumpen. PLEASE pay attention!

First of all, those arguing with you are NOT all of one voice. In my case, you are "preaching to the converted" when you denounce excessive debt. Yesterday I linked to a Youtube in which one expert expects "debt to be monetized" via "an inflation tax." Ever-growing debt is one of several trends that make the global economy very fragile. I'll attract derision from the bilbys on the Board but I plan to buy more gold. It's not that I think gold is a particularly promising long-term asset class; it's that currencies are NOT.

Where I differ from Mr. Lumpen, as I've tried to explain to him over and over and over, is that the stupid Congressional debt ceiling is NOT an intelligent way to seek deficit reduction. Lumpen hinted at self-awareness earlier when he suggested that POTUS would have tricks to circumvent the ceiling. Like what? The simplest trickery is to mint the infamous platinum coin but Lumpen seems uninterested in discussing that.

And regardless of whether "excessive debt is bad" or not, Lumpen is operating from mistaken facts.

... But what is the evidence that our (excess) dosages of public deficit since 1930 have been effective? We did not have such dosages earlier in history when there were recessions and stock market crashes just as bad as 1929 but which ended after a year or 2 or 3.

(1929-30 was not a serious recession. '31 was, and it's not until '32 that it got bad. The only victims in 29-30 were some investors who leaped out of high-story Wall St. windows.)

The worst debt/GDP ratio in the 30s was 1932: https://www.google.com/search?q=deb...kgEDMC42mAEAoAEByAEIwAEB&sclient=gws-wiz-serp , beginning with Hoover, not FDR, and preceding most of the Great Depression damage dragging on into the 40s.

If this and similar excess deficits following were "effective" to fix the economy, why is it that the Depression lasted on and on until the War? No U.S. depression earlier in history ever lasted so long and severely.

It appears you didn't even examine your own link. And WTF sort of link is that anyway?? A Google search query??? :confused2: If the query turned up a useful graph or page why not ... I dunno ... LINK to the useful graph or page!? Here is the top hit from that query; I base the following on it.

Almost every sentence in the quoted excerpt is WRONG! Recessions prior to 1929 DID last for several years. In 1932 Hoover raised taxes and the depression worsened. Duh! In 1933 debt increased and so did GDP. Duh! Do you see what is written next to 1936? "Tax hikes renewed depression." Duh!

Does this help?
One would hope that facts would help, but history indicates otherwise. Especially when someone based their position on blatant counter factual thinking.
 
Why should there be any debt limit?
Everyone agrees: even $50 trillion would not be too high.
(or $100 trillion, $500 tr . . etc.) This is your reason why the debt ceiling must always be raised higher, without limit.

So then, instead of $1 or $2 trillion, the deficit could be raised to $5 or $10 trillion and that would be fine? not worse?
I am asking you.

In what way would it be worse? What difference would it make to anything?
So here we have it -- the reason why we must always increase the debt ceiling, and why we really need to eliminate the debt ceiling altogether: the reason is:

It can never be worse to increase the debt to any higher level, no matter how much higher it might be. It wouldn't make a difference to anything to raise it to any higher level. It says so right here, from a certified higher-debt crusader, representing the typical "raise-the-debt-ceiling" believer who cannot be refuted.

And no one can give any reason why it would be worse to increase it, to $10 trillion, to $100 trillion, to $500 trillion, or even higher. No one is giving any reason, because they can't. They don't believe there should be any limit whatever to the debt, not even $10 trillion.

No one posting here is giving any reason why not, and maybe cannot give any reason, and this is the real case for eliminating the debt ceiling and also not replacing it with anything else to put a limit on how high the debt can go. The reason is that they don't recognize any need for there to ever be a limit to any debt.

So, why is there any limit to the debt at all? Why not increase it so high that it pays not only for the entire current $7 trillion budget, but for absolutely everything anyone (any one individual) demands? The only reason for a limit is that there are some old-fashioned neanderthals who disagree and think there needs to be limits to debt. And the higher-debt crusaders feel a need to pander to these non-believers to put some token limits on it, at high enough levels where they're willing to accept a token limit they'd prefer not to be there because it really serves no need.

Because they agree with Bilby that higher debt, no matter how much higher, can never be worse than a lower debt. Even if they grant some token limit, to humor the debt-limit-traditionalists, still they are careful to always argue for higher debt and no limit at any level (no higher level can ever be "worse"), because their real sentiment is always for more debt, because it's only instant gratification that matters to them, and the higher debt always serves the instant gratification right now, whereas the repayment of debt later is never an issue except for the long term future (which is off the radar screen). And this is why they want the "debt ceiling" limit abolished. To them, only the instant-gratification issue of getting the debt up higher right now is of any importance.

There might be a reason why the U.S. should not increase the current deficit to $10 trillion. But since it's only hypothetical, maybe it's better to not think about it, let alone mention it. Because that would only confuse us and distract us from the immediate instant-gratification debt increase today which could never be "worse" no matter how much higher it might go. We should always keep our focus only on the immediate issues of how to maximize our instant gratification, without ever speculating on anything abstract, like what's going to happen 10 or 20 years from now.

It would probably be inflationary. But then, I agree entirely that taxes need to be raised to keep inflation down.
But not debt. There's no need to keep the current deficit from going up to $5 trillion or $10 trillion, or to any hypothetical amount. No amount of higher deficit would be "worse" because "What difference would it make to anything?" It would make none (except the instant gratification we buy with it), no difference to the instant-gratification impulse right now, which is all the reality there is.

This is why we must raise the debt ceiling, or rather, eliminate it altogether, and increase the deficits/debt without limit.

It's interesting that those who want the debt ceiling raised have this mentality that no debt level could be "worse" no matter how high it might go, and that even $10 trillion would not make a difference to anything. This mindset seems to be the driving force behind the "raise-the-debt-ceiling" chant, which is recited again and again whenever the deadline date for higher debt draws near.

Our Higher-Debt Crusader instructs us that "taxes need to be raised" in case there might be inflation. But not to repay any debt -- no, repaying debt will be done automatically by running up still higher debt without limit into the future. So all the trillions of new debt is to be repaid by running up still more hundreds of trillions and soon quadrillions of dollars into the future, without limit, because any higher level of debt could never be "worse."

And so this is why we must raise the debt ceiling. The mindset of those who advocate raising the debt ceiling, represented by the bilby "in what way would it be worse?" logic, is that eventually we will be into the quintillions and septillions or -- whatever -- soon we'll have to invent new names for the still higher "-illions" of dollars. And this won't make any difference to anything, because there's always more and more numbers going up higher -- new names can be invented if needed.

What is it about a $10 trillion deficit that is disastrous, that doesn't apply to a $1 trillion deficit? Or a $1 deficit?
translation: there is no difference between a higher debt level and a lower level. There is no reason to ever prefer a lower level of debt to a higher level.

And this is why we must raise the debt ceiling. As long as $10 trillion or $50 trillion debt is no worse than a $1 debt, there is never reason to settle for a lower figure. Maybe the maximum high limit is reached only at a point where you can't imagine any further items you'd like to buy. I.e., as long as someone can imagine anything further to spend other people's money on, the debt ceiling upper limit should be increased accordingly to whatever higher level it would require, so we can easily raise the additional funds needed to pay for it at that moment.

Whatever the dominating voices say about a token debt limit, all they really believe in is increasing the debt, always rejecting a limit, always running the debt high enough to pacify anyone's demand for more "stimulus" spending, and always demanding an end to the only mechanism making a limit possible, and of course no alternative mechanism to replace it. The higher-debt talking points and staying true to the blind-faith never-ask-questions religion of higher debt is the only sure foundation of all these voices who keep telling us that the world will come to an end if we don't immediately raise the debt ceiling again, the sooner the better.
 
The insistent on repayment and its potential costs ignores the fact that gov'ts have sources of repayment that neither households or firms have.
Tell that to Louis XVI.
Since no one is claiming we should default on the debt or even engage in a policy that would end up with that outcome, either I am missing your point or you are babbling.
 
Way back when, Senator Daniel Patrick Moynihan, chair of the Senate Social Security comittee, was informed by the chief actuarial of Social Security of problems with large numbers of future retiring Baby Boomers. Senator Moynihan managed to get SS withholding raised to accumulate a Social Security Trust Fund surplus. This was to be invested conservatively to supply adequate funding in the future. But the GOP, in control of the government passes legislation to put these supluses in the General Fund to prop up Reagan's deficit heavy economy. These surpluses got turned into taxes. Moynihand and the Democrats battled the GOP over this for years but never could stop GOP theft of Social Security surplus funds. The GOP has been lying for decades about this. All that we got from this was a vast pile of IOUs. Now the same thieves are yarbling about Vast Deficits and how the only way to deal with these deficits is to cut Social Security.

And America forgets all of this. Well most Americans anyway. I have been angry about this since the Reagan years.
There wasn't really anything the trust fund could be but a pile of IOUs. Putting it anywhere else would have disrupted the economy. The problem is they pretended it wasn't simply temporary funds that would have to be repaid.

Baloney! Invest surpluses in index funds, municiple bonds, etc. Confiscating the surplus, use it to prop up Reagan's failing supply side economy and telling us the resulting IOUs represent sound policy is outright theft.
 
The insistent on repayment and its potential costs ignores the fact that gov'ts have sources of repayment that neither households or firms have.
Tell that to Louis XVI.
Since no one is claiming we should default on the debt or even engage in a policy that would end up with that outcome, either I am missing your point or you are babbling.
What in your reading of history convinces you that the US is special? That it will be spared the consequences that befell prior fiscally irresponsible empires? Hope?
 
The insistent on repayment and its potential costs ignores the fact that gov'ts have sources of repayment that neither households or firms have.
Tell that to Louis XVI.
Since no one is claiming we should default on the debt or even engage in a policy that would end up with that outcome, either I am missing your point or you are babbling.
What in your reading of history convinces you that the US is special? That it will be spared the consequences that befell prior fiscally irresponsible empires? Hope?
The US is not an empire. Nor is the modern world financial and monetary systems remotely similar to world financial and monetary systems over 100 years ago. In case you were unaware, the world is not on the gold standard. Nor did France have the same role in the world economy back then as the US does now.

Furthermore, pointing out that focusing on repayment of debt without balancing the benefits of said debt is neither logically nor rationally advocating irresponsible behavior. Perhaps you are unaware that rational adults typically weigh the benefits and costs of financial actions when proposing courses of action.

Not only do your responses to me appear to unrelated to the content of my posts but to reality.
 
Why should there be any debt limit?
Everyone agrees: even $50 trillion would not be too high.
(or $100 trillion, $500 tr . . etc.) This is your reason why the debt ceiling must always be raised higher, without limit.

So then, instead of $1 or $2 trillion, the deficit could be raised to $5 or $10 trillion and that would be fine? not worse?
I am asking you.

In what way would it be worse? What difference would it make to anything?
So here we have it -- the reason why we must always increase the debt ceiling, and why we really need to eliminate the debt ceiling altogether: the reason is:

It can never be worse to increase the debt to any higher level, no matter how much higher it might be. It wouldn't make a difference to anything to raise it to any higher level. It says so right here, from a certified higher-debt crusader, representing the typical "raise-the-debt-ceiling" believer who cannot be refuted.

And no one can give any reason why it would be worse to increase it, to $10 trillion, to $100 trillion, to $500 trillion, or even higher. No one is giving any reason, because they can't. They don't believe there should be any limit whatever to the debt, not even $10 trillion.

No one posting here is giving any reason why not, and maybe cannot give any reason, and this is the real case for eliminating the debt ceiling and also not replacing it with anything else to put a limit on how high the debt can go. The reason is that they don't recognize any need for there to ever be a limit to any debt.

So, why is there any limit to the debt at all? Why not increase it so high that it pays not only for the entire current $7 trillion budget, but for absolutely everything anyone (any one individual) demands? The only reason for a limit is that there are some old-fashioned neanderthals who disagree and think there needs to be limits to debt. And the higher-debt crusaders feel a need to pander to these non-believers to put some token limits on it, at high enough levels where they're willing to accept a token limit they'd prefer not to be there because it really serves no need.

Because they agree with Bilby that higher debt, no matter how much higher, can never be worse than a lower debt. Even if they grant some token limit, to humor the debt-limit-traditionalists, still they are careful to always argue for higher debt and no limit at any level (no higher level can ever be "worse"), because their real sentiment is always for more debt, because it's only instant gratification that matters to them, and the higher debt always serves the instant gratification right now, whereas the repayment of debt later is never an issue except for the long term future (which is off the radar screen). And this is why they want the "debt ceiling" limit abolished. To them, only the instant-gratification issue of getting the debt up higher right now is of any importance.

There might be a reason why the U.S. should not increase the current deficit to $10 trillion. But since it's only hypothetical, maybe it's better to not think about it, let alone mention it. Because that would only confuse us and distract us from the immediate instant-gratification debt increase today which could never be "worse" no matter how much higher it might go. We should always keep our focus only on the immediate issues of how to maximize our instant gratification, without ever speculating on anything abstract, like what's going to happen 10 or 20 years from now.

It would probably be inflationary. But then, I agree entirely that taxes need to be raised to keep inflation down.
But not debt. There's no need to keep the current deficit from going up to $5 trillion or $10 trillion, or to any hypothetical amount. No amount of higher deficit would be "worse" because "What difference would it make to anything?" It would make none (except the instant gratification we buy with it), no difference to the instant-gratification impulse right now, which is all the reality there is.

This is why we must raise the debt ceiling, or rather, eliminate it altogether, and increase the deficits/debt without limit.

It's interesting that those who want the debt ceiling raised have this mentality that no debt level could be "worse" no matter how high it might go, and that even $10 trillion would not make a difference to anything. This mindset seems to be the driving force behind the "raise-the-debt-ceiling" chant, which is recited again and again whenever the deadline date for higher debt draws near.

Our Higher-Debt Crusader instructs us that "taxes need to be raised" in case there might be inflation. But not to repay any debt -- no, repaying debt will be done automatically by running up still higher debt without limit into the future. So all the trillions of new debt is to be repaid by running up still more hundreds of trillions and soon quadrillions of dollars into the future, without limit, because any higher level of debt could never be "worse."

And so this is why we must raise the debt ceiling. The mindset of those who advocate raising the debt ceiling, represented by the bilby "in what way would it be worse?" logic, is that eventually we will be into the quintillions and septillions or -- whatever -- soon we'll have to invent new names for the still higher "-illions" of dollars. And this won't make any difference to anything, because there's always more and more numbers going up higher -- new names can be invented if needed.

What is it about a $10 trillion deficit that is disastrous, that doesn't apply to a $1 trillion deficit? Or a $1 deficit?
translation: there is no difference between a higher debt level and a lower level. There is no reason to ever prefer a lower level of debt to a higher level.

And this is why we must raise the debt ceiling. As long as $10 trillion or $50 trillion debt is no worse than a $1 debt, there is never reason to settle for a lower figure. Maybe the maximum high limit is reached only at a point where you can't imagine any further items you'd like to buy. I.e., as long as someone can imagine anything further to spend other people's money on, the debt ceiling upper limit should be increased accordingly to whatever higher level it would require, so we can easily raise the additional funds needed to pay for it at that moment.

Whatever the dominating voices say about a token debt limit, all they really believe in is increasing the debt, always rejecting a limit, always running the debt high enough to pacify anyone's demand for more "stimulus" spending, and always demanding an end to the only mechanism making a limit possible, and of course no alternative mechanism to replace it. The higher-debt talking points and staying true to the blind-faith never-ask-questions religion of higher debt is the only sure foundation of all these voices who keep telling us that the world will come to an end if we don't immediately raise the debt ceiling again, the sooner the better.
All this analysis of my questions, and yet not a single attempt at any answers.

I get it. You're outraged that I asked these questions, and you have deeply held (but utterly baseless) beliefs about my motives for asking them.

But actually, I just want you to answer them.

If the answers are so bleeding bloody obvious, you shouldn't be struggling with them so much.

As usual, it seems that the less well founded your beliefs are, the more words you burn in a futile attempt to defend them.

When you have a clue, you can be brief; When you post walls of text, it's a clear indication that you're clueless.
 
I have learned a lot from this thread, thanks especially to Lumpenproletariat's lengthy explanations of why it is a good idea to vote against raising the debt limit. I have a credit card and have run up huge bills, but I needed or really wanted all of the stuff I bought. Very irresponsible of me, so I need to stop doing that. From what I have learned here, all I have to do is not pay off the credit card bill and tell the creditor that my debt limit has been exceeded. I never thought of that solution before, but it is totally painless and will make me a much more responsible person from a financial perspective. Sure, the credit card company won't like that, but they'll realize that I will be good for future bills when I get a new credit card issued by them, because they will see that I am no longer an irresponsible spender. After all, I have a debt limit that prevents me from spending more than I can afford. They can just refuse to reimburse the merchants that I used the credit cards to buy things from. Sure, those merchants will be pissed, but they can refuse to pay the manufacturers for the goods that they produced and marketed through the merchants. The manufacturers will be pissed, but they can just refuse to pay the salaries of the workers who manufactured those goods. The workers might then be pissed, but they can just go out and get credit cards to buy stuff with and then do what I did. Everybody ends up happy in the end, because the buck no longer comes out of their pockets. They just borrow it and then refuse to pay it back. Everybody can benefit from that approach. Debt ceases to become a problem.

Why are liberals always complaining about Republicans? Republicans are fiscal conservatives who know how economics works.
 
Why should there be any debt limit?
Everyone agrees: even $50 trillion would not be too high.
(or $100 trillion, $500 tr . . etc.) This is your reason why the debt ceiling must always be raised higher, without limit.

This Lumpen post came immediately after MY post denouncing excessive debt!!
This makes his word choice — "Everyone" — especially peculiar. Does Lumpen have me set to Ignore?
Or is his English language comprehension simply not good enough even to distinguish "everyone" from "someone"? :confused2:
But this confusion is par for his course; peculiarity is the best compliment that can be paid to most of his posts here.

Way back when, Senator Daniel Patrick Moynihan, chair of the Senate Social Security comittee, was informed by the chief actuarial of Social Security of problems with large numbers of future retiring Baby Boomers. Senator Moynihan managed to get SS withholding raised to accumulate a Social Security Trust Fund surplus. This was to be invested conservatively to supply adequate funding in the future. But the GOP, in control of the government passes legislation to put these supluses in the General Fund to prop up Reagan's deficit heavy economy. These surpluses got turned into taxes. Moynihand and the Democrats battled the GOP over this for years but never could stop GOP theft of Social Security surplus funds. The GOP has been lying for decades about this. All that we got from this was a vast pile of IOUs. Now the same thieves are yarbling about Vast Deficits and how the only way to deal with these deficits is to cut Social Security.

And America forgets all of this. Well most Americans anyway. I have been angry about this since the Reagan years.
There wasn't really anything the trust fund could be but a pile of IOUs. Putting it anywhere else would have disrupted the economy. The problem is they pretended it wasn't simply temporary funds that would have to be repaid.

Baloney! Invest surpluses in index funds, municiple bonds, etc. Confiscating the surplus, use it to prop up Reagan's failing supply side economy and telling us the resulting IOUs represent sound policy is outright theft.

It is Mr. Pechtel who is correct here. Investing the surplus elsewhere than U.S. Treasurys would have presented its own difficulties — start another thread to discuss — but even corporate bonds or stocks are equivalent to paper IOUs at the proper distant level of abstraction. (OP seems to claim that debt can be bad, but the badness disappears (along with the loan) as soon as lender forecloses! But I hope few if any of us are trying to learn from OP.)

The SocSec investment was not confiscated under Reagan; the accounting was simply misreported for political ends when addressing the gullible GOP base.
 
Way back when, Senator Daniel Patrick Moynihan, chair of the Senate Social Security comittee, was informed by the chief actuarial of Social Security of problems with large numbers of future retiring Baby Boomers. Senator Moynihan managed to get SS withholding raised to accumulate a Social Security Trust Fund surplus. This was to be invested conservatively to supply adequate funding in the future. But the GOP, in control of the government passes legislation to put these supluses in the General Fund to prop up Reagan's deficit heavy economy. These surpluses got turned into taxes. Moynihand and the Democrats battled the GOP over this for years but never could stop GOP theft of Social Security surplus funds. The GOP has been lying for decades about this. All that we got from this was a vast pile of IOUs. Now the same thieves are yarbling about Vast Deficits and how the only way to deal with these deficits is to cut Social Security.

And America forgets all of this. Well most Americans anyway. I have been angry about this since the Reagan years.
There wasn't really anything the trust fund could be but a pile of IOUs. Putting it anywhere else would have disrupted the economy. The problem is they pretended it wasn't simply temporary funds that would have to be repaid.

Baloney! Invest surpluses in index funds, municiple bonds, etc. Confiscating the surplus, use it to prop up Reagan's failing supply side economy and telling us the resulting IOUs represent sound policy is outright theft.
It's simply too much money, it would be a big market force and would do bad things to the market as the surplus was drawn down. There simply was no place to reasonably invest that kind of money!
 

The SocSec investment was not confiscated under Reagan; the accounting was simply misreported for political ends when addressing the gullible GOP base.
Both sides were guilty of this. It's just the Republicans are trying avoid repaying it.
 

The SocSec investment was not confiscated under Reagan; the accounting was simply misreported for political ends when addressing the gullible GOP base.
Both sides were guilty of this. It's just the Republicans are trying avoid repaying it.

That's true. The House was under Democratic control in 1983, and they passed the bill rather than simply raise the cap on payroll taxes or raise taxes on investment income. The idea was supposed to be that retirees fully benefited from having paid into the system, but this was the government's way of clawing some of it back and dumping it into the general income revenue bucket. Many Americans, but especially conservatives, tend to see Social Security as a welfare entitlement handout rather than an earned benefit that is fully funded. Social Security is one of the federal government's biggest creditors, which is why many Republicans would like to see the program end. Ending it, of course, would result in the loss of income tax revenue that they siphon off from its beneficiaries.
 
What's the evidence that high deficits work?
Is there a "Day of Reckoning" on the way?

How is this not a clear indication that our past debt is imposing a net cost overall rather than an overall benefit?
It's not a clear indication of that because standards of living continued to increase over all those decades of increased past debt.
Standard-of-Living increase?
Only because of new science and technology, which has increased geometrically during this period. If the higher-debt practices adopted in the 1930s had produced net benefit, we should have been seeing a different outcome than one which makes us subservient to ever higher debt with no end.

(Also, the "higher standard of living" argument ignores complaints that the prosperity is very unevenly distributed and that much has gotten worse = lower living standard for segments of the population. Also, the higher U.S. trade deficit is probably a RESULT or sign of something wrong in the production, indicating something went wrong, not with trade policy but with U.S. market competitiveness in relation to other countries, which then produces trade protectionism demagoguery leading to still worse results. So some things are wrong, despite the better standard of living, and thus it's not clear that the higher-debt philosophy is producing the better results.)

It's not necessarily wrong that we've transitioned to an economy with annual budget deficits as being the norm -- i.e., moderate deficit like around 5% of the current year's budget. It could possibly have worked. But it should be the kind of change which does not enslave us to ever higher debt from now on with no option to ever stop it or reduce the level of debt down again, imposing the absolute necessity of higher debt forever because each generation is unable to repay the previous obligations without increasing the debt and thus passing on its share to the future in the form of still more debt. 90 years of this is too long! This slavery to debt indicates a net failure, or breakdown, in the original formula for instituting high budget deficit to play a legitimate role accompanied by good economic production of more wealth to also repay debt, i.e., private production through basic competitiveness and risk-taking and improved performance by individual players in the market.

I.e., a good formula would be one which makes the system perform a little better, but not which enslaves the system to the new irreversibly-higher-debt formula which then becomes absolute and binding, with no choice to ever go back or reduce our dependency on it.

(It's necessary to clarify that it's only high budget deficit which is a false economic policy choice doing harm. This policy is a CAUSE of other damage in the economy, whereas the so-called TRADE DEFICIT is itself never a CAUSE of anything wrong, but only a result of something wrong in the production process, such as uncompetitiveness. It's only debt which has to be repaid which causes harm, not a trade imbalance where there is no debt owed by the importing nation to the exporting nation.)

What really causes increased living standard? -- clever monetary tricks played by the Fed? cute new money-creating theories by Keynes and Galbraith and other Economics Wizards? No.

New science and technology is by far the obvious cause of higher living standard, not games played by the politicians and economists pretending to manipulate the money and create instant wealth with their magic tricks.

Scholars in the social sciences put on this charade that somehow their expertise in how to manipulate society is what causes our improvements in health and industry and production and wellness. This enhances their prestige and recognition and wins them Noble Prizes and higher salaries in the academic world.

But their real role, along with philosophers and clerics and prophets and gurus and orators and pundits -- and their disciples -- is as ornaments or luxuries within the advanced cultural and material benefits due to modern science and technology and industry. They are a BY-PRODUCT of the higher living standard, NOT A CAUSE of it.


Did any smart economic theories ever really work?

Probably the best case of an economic policy leading to greater prosperity is that of promoting trade, as history shows repeatedly that the more prosperous countries are those which trade more. The Phoenicians proved the benefits of trade to increasing the general well-being. Their "capital" city of Tyre was arguably the most prosperous ancient city, in terms of the overall living standard for the whole population. Historians and economists agree that increase of trade played a major role in promoting the general well-being, while the xenophobic and/or more isolated regions which did not trade had slower development and more poverty.

But along with trade promotion, another in the list of economic theories which can claim credit for producing improvement would be that of market competition as essential for setting the prices; so some (but not all) of the Adam Smith and David Ricardo theories of market capitalism deserve credit.

But whatever there are of legitimate social-science make-the-world-better theories, social revolutions, social planning, utopian reformism etc., they are nothing compared to the role of the scientific and technological advancements to improve the world and make possible our higher living standard.

There's little evidence that anyone's brilliant social theories or political/economic school has had a net positive effect on our living standard -- any evidence probably shows as much negative outcome as positive. It's impossible to prove what caused what. All we know is that the natural sciences have made our lives better, and no matter which political ideologues were in power, they made little or no net difference (aside from their "putting out the garbage" role), except the funding of needed science research. In practice the Left fanatics and Right fanatics often canceled each other out, so that if either caused something good to happen, the other side nullified it when they came to power at the next election. There's little or no evidence either way, other than when they chose the benefits to be gained by science.

You could make a good argument that all the political back-and-forth of the Reds & Blues is symbolism only, and instead we should promote science for anything serious, and maybe just laugh off the Red and Blue speechmakers as clowns to entertain us. Perhaps they are a necessary evil.

A similar collection of preachers pretending to take credit for progress are the cap-'n-gown speechmakers who accost us with long speeches every year, mainly in June, promoting their social philosophy and pretending to inspire our high school and college grads to advancement in their careers with a new bounce in their step, to lead the next generation on to higher and higher levels of consciousness -- especially at the top 1% Ivy League institutions where our "leaders of tomorrow" come off the assembly line packaged and clothed in the latest robes of political correctness and symbolisms and fads to make you find your "identity," or discover "who you are" or feel good about yourself. Similar to the politicians, these speech-makers are probably a necessary evil which serves a legitimate psychological function in society, especially when they emphasize the importance of science.

Sure, there may come a day of reckoning [because of too much debt], but . . .
There are possible "day of reckoning" scenarios, depending on many unknown factors. Maybe you could say the chance of any real disaster is only 20% or 30%, so let's not worry about it. Like the chance of having a car accident is maybe only 10%, so why bother wearing a seat belt?
. . . but I am having a hard time envisioning who/whatever is owed all that theoretical debt, suddenly showing up and demanding that the entire debt be cleared immediately.
No one demands anything immediately, other than the particular current bondholders who must be paid on schedule, by the deadline agreed to in the contract. And the entire debt owed to them must be paid on schedule -- everyone agrees to this.

So the question is not whether but how this is to be repaid, on into the future, 20 and 50 and 100 years from now, when it's due. And we're making the future worse as long as we have no answer other than the infinite borrowing ability of future speech-maker demagogues in power who can run up however much more debt is required at the moment. The increasingly higher debt/GDP indicates that this remains the only basis for the future repayment of debt, so our higher-debt philosophy is premised on the need for ever and ever-higher debt ratio. The production share of repayment continues to decrease as the new-debt share continues to increase. This ratio is now the highest ever, probably even the highest ever in history over a sustained period -- not for the U.S. alone, but the U.S. is a leader in this trend and is setting a bad example for many countries having much worse inflation problems and less flexibility to manage long-term debt. So even if the U.S. has ways to avoid a "day of reckoning" disaster itself, many other countries do not, and we don't know what effect those disasters might have on the U.S. or other developed countries.

This adverse trend would not be happening if the new unlimited debt philosophy adopted by the U.S. in the 1930s was producing an overall net benefit over time. Such a benefit ought to lead to a system of repaying the debt with higher production instead of with only higher debt without limit. Arguably this debt philosophy could have become successful if it had been brought under control in the 1950s and 60s and made only a modest part of financing the budget from that point on, instead of becoming a major doctrine to permanently drive up the debt commitment as far as possible into the future. All the projections show the debt/GDP likely to keep increasing significantly. Only a major shift or change in debt policy could change this. So this debt philosophy inherently is based on ever-increasing debt/GDP with no decrease as part of the formula.
. . . showing up and demanding that the entire debt be cleared immediately. That would be imposing a cost!
No, there'd be no such cost because the demand simply would not be met -- of course no one making such demands would ever show up, but hypothetically if they did, they'd be turned away empty-handed -- because nothing needs to be "cleared" other than to pay the debt currently due.

But what could happen, in a disaster scenario, is that new bond-buyers would be scared away by something, and raising new debt would become impossible, or extremely costly. If that should happen, the much higher debt/GDP could make it impossible to resolve it (too much is owed), and the extreme budget-cutting outcries then, worse than ever, would be the result of our having failed to keep down the debt/GDP and letting it rise without limit, as the "raise the debt ceiling" crusaders keep insisting we must do.

Of course you can always say it's less than 50% likely that any such disaster will happen, so let's not worry about it, just like the chance of a car accident is less than 50% and so there's no need for the seatbelt.

A case could be made for that.



Which Party is really to blame for the debt?
When was the last budget surplus year? I don't know, but I suspect it was during the Clinton administration.
When Gingrich and Republican Congress heroically restrained spending so they could claim credit for balancing the budget. Right.

Your example helps confirm the principle:

Republican President + Democrat Congress = higher debt

Democrat President + Republican Congress = reduced debt (or less increased debt)


But of course we have to remember that it was the tech boom of the 1990s which really produced the higher revenue to the gov't, not the smart policies of the Dems or Repubs. Though it could be argued that the Dem President + Repub Congress contributed slightly.



summary: We should rely on what we know works, not on unproven mystical money-manipulation to "grow the economy" and "create jobs" and other magic-wand slogans not based on economic fundamentals of improving performance in the market. Basic increasing of some taxes is part of the solution, and also budget cuts. And promoting science, such as more research for finding real solutions that improve how we live. We have no real evidence that the higher-debt magic is working, after 90 years of steady growth of debt-dependency, but we know there is risk of something going wrong if we keep running up debt so that the future is enslaved to debt-dependency and no option to reduce that dependency -- which is where we're heading. So we need some mechanism for choosing to reduce that dependency, and we have no such mechanism other than the debt ceiling.
 
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summary: We should rely on what we know works, not on unproven mystical money-manipulation to "grow the economy" and "create jobs" and other magic-wand slogans not based on economic fundamentals of improving performance in the market. Basic increasing of some taxes is part of the solution, and also budget cuts. And promoting science, such as more research for finding real solutions that improve how we live. We have no real evidence that the higher-debt magic is working, after 90 years of steady growth of debt-dependency, but we know there is risk of something going wrong if we keep running up debt so that the future is enslaved to debt-dependency and no option to reduce that dependency -- which is where we're heading. So we need some mechanism for choosing to reduce that dependency, and we have no such mechanism other than the debt ceiling.

We should rely on what economists know works, not what you know works. Do you even understand basic economic theory going back to Keynes? What grows and shrinks economies is not necessarily what your gut tells you works. Equating a national economy with a household economy resonates well with most people, because they live in households. But microeconomics can be very different from the macroeconomic behavior of a national economy. Unfortunately, most people that we elect to Congress are still stuck thinking about how household incomes and expenses work, and they don't trust the academic eggheads to know some things they don't know about how a national economy works. We actually do have evidence that high debts "magic" works. What happened to all the bills that came due after WWII? Why did the economy continue to grow as the debt shrank in terms of real dollars?
 
we should have been seeing a different outcome than one which makes us subservient to ever higher debt with no end.
No doubt the debt number goes higher. But this subservience of which you speak? I spend exactly zero time in subservience, and wonder about what form it takes for you. In fact, that debt serves me, not vice-versa. That’s why we have it.
 
Was it ten or fifteen years ago, maybe twenty years, can't remember exactly when Congress passed a bill that automatically cut spending across the board? But when that day came for the bill to take effect congress quickly reneged because it would have meant cuts in their individual districts to lots of spending. And that would have meant they would risk reelection.

So all this talk about debt and balancing spending is bullshit until you remove the incentive for congress critters to get reelected by overspending in their districts. It doesn't matter the party and it sure isn't ever going to happen with such a glaring conflict of interest.
 
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