Split Gendered spaces, split from Drag Shows

[Emily Lake]

I mean, why are you even here? It is just one hyperbole, one strawman, one goalpost shift after the other. You seem to be allergic to discussions in good faith.

Well, that’s what they want. I just prefer that we be specific rather than employ disingenuous euphemisms.

Bullshit. The suggestion is that people want sexual predators in women's locker rooms. Which obviously no one wants.

Maybe nobody wants it... but some of you are perfectly happy to allow it to happen, and further to cast any attempt to prevent it as evil bigotry.

You may not want it, you may not actively seek it out... but you sure as fuck don't seem to care if it actually happens - you don't even care enough to try to prevent it from occurring.

 

[TomC]

Also... if 90% of men are well socialized and no threat at all, that still means that 1 in every 10 men we interact with IS a threat.

I don't like those odds. And I don't think men on the whole would be willing to take on much lower odds if it were THEY'RE safety and boundaries in question.

This is the elephant in the room.

10% of the people will cause 90% of the problems.

The enormous majority of us guys aren't the slightest threat. The majority of the rest won't do anything worse than leer and comment. But there's the small, tiny even, minority who will do much worse.

That tiny minority cause huge damage to their victims, who are near exclusively female. This has been true for all of history. Cultural norms and infrastructure reflect that fact.
Tom

 

[Emily Lake]

I have no doubt that I showered with gay people when I was in the Navy, and I was a small weak, male. Did they bother me, or anyone else? No. They left people who gave them no clear come-on signals alone. Trans people will do the same.

You're kidding yourself.

When you were in the Navy I'm sure you didn't have any problems. That was a highly disciplined environment.

If the Jarhyns of the world are entitled to use the women's restroom at the mall, so are the Hannah Tubbs* of the world.
Tom

* Tubbs is an MtF convicted of sexually assaulting a girl at a popular restaurant chain in the women's restroom.

Nah, it's even worse than that. Tubbs is a 100% male presenting male who sexually assaulted a 10 year old girl in the women's restroom when he was 17... and went on living his life as a complete man in every sense, until AFTER he was arrested as an adult... at which point he decided he was transgender despite never having expressed any dysphoria or discomfort with this entirely male body, and without ever having expressed any desire to present as female in any way.

And his magic words said out loud resulted in him being sentenced to serve time in a JUVENILE FEMALE facility.

It's a media concoction that Tubbs is trans. It's a concoction that is absolutely necessary, because failure to adhere to that fucking lie shines a huge spotlight on the fact that setting policy for transgender people based on nothing more than magic words is a GIGANTIC FUCKING LOOPHOLE that some men will very happily exploit in order to gain access to a pool of victims.

Exhibit B would be Karen White.

 

[Emily Lake]

No.
The mistake was when lostone said "Trans people will do the same".
They won't.

Most will, just like most men will refrain from violent rape. But not all. MtF are still men, with male tendencies as a group.

If anything, I expect that MtF are more dangerous than ordinary guys.
Tom

Transgender identified males commit male-pattern violence at the same rate as other males... which is astronomically higher rates than females.

Incarcerated males who identify as transgender have a higher rate of sexual offenses than the general incarcerated male population.

I will point out that this does not imply that transwomen are more likely to be sex offenders than other men... but it certainly should cause people to ask whether this is the case, or alternatively whether sex offenders are more likely to claim a transgender identity.

Either way, at a minimum, males commit sexual crimes at the rate of males... and gender identity doesn't alter that.

 

[Emily Lake]

Unless they are trans women, in which case they must "get over it" or face the consequences?

Pretty much, yeah.
The consequences being "expected to use the room right next door".

That's another point. What little I know about MtF, the problem is usually the attitude of the individual. A guy can dip into the women's restroom without any consequences providing they are circumspect. Usually.

A reasonable attempt at female presenting. Keep your eyes, and everything else, to yourself. Go in and do your business and get out.
Don't mess with anybody.

Prolly no-one will care.
Tom

That's how it used to be, and it worked pretty well. We knew that Carol was male. We could tell. But Carol kept to herself, didn't impose, and was respectful, and we figured Carol was gong through some shit so we would be accommodating.

But that was all at our discretion. We still had the right to tell Priscilla to get the fuck out when Priscilla was ogling the other women and had a visible erection. We had the right to make case-by-case exceptions to our rule, we had the right to determine when we did and did not consent to having males in our presence. We had the right to determine when we did and did not allow males to see us naked, or when we we did and did not allow males to get naked in front of us.

Now we are having that right stripped away. We are being told that we have NO RIGHT to deny a male the privilege of seeing us naked, we have NO RIGHT to deny a male the privilege of exposing his penis to us against our will.

It saddens me that so many men don't care about that, so many men are happy to sacrifice the rights and the consent of women in order to accommodate any male who expresses a desire to be in women's spaces.

I very much appreciate those of you who at least understand that there IS a tradeoff, and that there IS an impact to women.

 

[Emily Lake]

The problem here that you are trying to impose your feelings on others even though you admit they're not based in reality.

Over 80% of girls and women in the US have been sexually harassed. About 70% of women and girls over the age of 12 has been sexually assaulted. 1 in 6 females in the US has been subjected to an attempted or completed rape.

Less than 1% of reported rapes gets convicted.

But go ahead, Mr. Man. Tell me it's not rooted in reality. Go ahead and tell me that women are just overreacting and being hysterical about the whole thing. Go ahead and tell me that women should just bow down and let any man who claims to have a magical feminine soul should get to violate all of my reasonable boundaries and dismiss my agency in the matter.

Because you, A MAN, has spoken, and clearly, you, A MAN, know much more about women than women do.

 

[Emily Lake]

Look at how many attacks there have been on trans people. We have a lot more examples of male on trans attacks than trans on female attacks. I'm not aware of any data that sorts this out by attacks in gender-specific spaces.

Do some per-capita numbers. How many males have attacked transwomen, as a percentage of males? How many males have attacked females, as a percentage of males? How many transwomen have attacked females, as a percentage of transwomen?

Every year, the UK has two memorials. One is the Transgender Day of Remembrance. The other is the International Day for the Elimination of Violence against Women 2023.

On the transgender day of remembrance, many women showed up to support those harmed for being trans, and to remember the... checks note... zero transgender people who had been murdered in 2021.

On the other hand... transgender people and their allies disrupted the event for the elimination of violence against women, threatened the women there, and yelled out insults and epithets over the reading of the names of the over 2000 women in the UK who had been murdered by domestic violence or sexual assault.

 

[Emily Lake]

I would be fine with requiring therapy and ID indicating they were living as the opposite gender for access to any exposed space, but not for access to spaces where others will not see your equipment. (But note I favor an "any" approach to such spaces which would render it irrelevant.)

I have a few direct questions for you.

1) Do you think that your wife should have the right to a female doctor or nurse for her gynecological exam? Do you think your wife should have the right to a female technician handling her breasts for a mammogram?

2) Do you think that the victim of rape should have the right to a female medical examiner?

3) Do you think that a female victim of domestic abuse should have access to female-only shelters?

 

[Emily Lake]

I wouldn't care.

Right. Men don’t care. Women do. This bullying women to accept random naked men in their spaces is just embarrassing, Dude.

It's male privilege declaring that women have no right to boundaries, and that the consent of women means nothing to them.

 

[Bomb#20]

we're already seeing European countries making all public bathrooms "gender neutral".

As far as I'm aware, many European countries never routinely segregated public bathrooms.

And some did, and have stopped: a preview of what's starting to happen in the UK and North America. Women are becoming second-class citizens in the bathroom to go along with everywhere else.

The lack of segregation in European public toilets is not a new thing - and has yet to lead to a massive increase in sexual assaults.

We were "already" seeing it in the Middle Ages. Those "Trans allies" have either been around for a lot longer than I thought, or have successfully constructed a time machine.

That's a bizarre argument -- if public toilets have been coed since the Middle Ages, when exactly should we have seen the massive increase in sexual assaults, assuming coed bathrooms are dangerous for women? Do you have reliable statistics on the rape rate in medieval Belgium?

In any event, Sweden is one of the countries where bathrooms have recently gone coed, and Sweden has had a massive increase in sexual assaults. Of course there are confounding factors, but that hardly supports the position that it isn't a problem.

 

[Emily Lake]

This means deprogramming, not deferral.

Translation: Women need to be re-educated out of their desire to protect themselves from male assault.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Again: I certainly am NOT talking about being offended. I do not find anything about the human body offensive, although I do think that some things people might choose to do with their own human body to be offensive (crapping on the dinner table, for example is not just unhygienic but also offensive). Walking about with your genitals exposed (any genitals) is often but not always offensive, depending on the circumstances and sometimes is indicative of acute intoxication or acute mental illness. Not always, of course. Sometimes, walking around with your genitals exposed is perfectly acceptable and even expected. Context matters.

You're missing the fact that we generally aren't protected from offensive things.

I'm talking about something that YOU do NOT have any experience with and apparently are incapable of having anything resembling empathy with: Women are constantly in some state of surveillance of their surroundings and of their own appearance and behavior, looking out for danger. Most of us can keep that need for surveillance to a minimum in most circumstances but yes, women are more attuned to signs of danger for themselves and for any offspring they might have. It's hardwired into us by nature and society has taught us that we must constantly monitor our surroundings, our dress, our behavior because if we make any kind of mistake, however innocent, we might be attacked and if we are attacked, every single thing about our dress, our behavior, our surroundings will be used against us in a court of law, if it gets that far. Most of the time, it does not get that far, even if it is reported, which most of the time it is not.

And you still haven't established that nudity has anything to do with the actual threat. Keeping reiterating that there is a threat doesn't change this lacking.

You continue to ignore that this is not about being offended. I'm not offended by nudity or by penises. I would not be offended to find a naked stranger with a penis standing next to me in a women's locker room. I would be alarmed.

I don't know what kind of joy you get out of pretending that this is about women being prudish and offended by male nudity but I consider it to be your own personal form of masturbation and so I will leave you to it without further participation on my part.

You are still failing to establish a connection.

Yes, women have legitimate reason to fear men--nobody's contesting that. What you are failing to establish is why locker rooms are any greater threat than life in general, especially as the data says otherwise.

 

[thebeave]

34 Things Women Do To Stay Safe Show The Burden Of 'Being Careful'

34 Things Women Do To Stay Safe Show The Burden Of 'Being Careful'

www.huffpost.com

259 Things Women Do Daily to Avoid Being Assaulted - Girls Gone Strong

With sexual harassment and assault all over the headlines in Hollywood, sports, politics, and fitness, I’ve been thinking a lot about this topic and having lots of conversations about it...

www.girlsgonestrong.com

Re: your first link:

"But it is the men who are attacking the women. If there is to be a curfew, let the men stay at home."

So responded Israeli Prime Minister Golda Meier to a 1950s suggestion that fewer women would be assaulted if all were asked to stay inside.

This is really quite analogous to some of the dynamics today. Transgender identified males want access to women's restrooms and showers and other places where women and girls are vulnerable or exposed. And women are being told that if they don't like it... they can line up and use the single-service space. ALL of the women are being disadvantaged by a single male who wants access to a female space. It's very much analogous to telling women that if they want to avoid being assaulted they should just stay home. Or you know, they shouldn't wear such a short skirt.

It places the burden on women to either exclude themselves from equal participation in society or to set aside all reasonable boundaries and requirement for consent.

Yep. Family Guy was rather prescient with regards to our current transgender issues:

 

[southernhybrid]

I think that some of you are being very unfair to Toni regarding her concerns. There was a book written in 1997 called, "The Gift of Fear". I read it many years after a man threatened to rape me. If I had listened to my "gut" and asked a nice man who I had been having a discussion with, who was traveling on business and was totally non threatening, to walk with me to my car, the potential rapist would never have had a chance to threaten me. I'll spare the details of how I got him to leave me alone, but after that experience I've learned to be extremely cautious when I'm alone and around strange men who I feel might be creepy. I could be wrong about some of these men, but women are very vulnerable to being sexually assaulted by men, so we do have to take extra precautions if we want to stay safe.

The author of the book I mentioned is a male detective and he encourages all women to listen to their "gut" if they ever feel uncomfortable around a man. One example he gives is getting on an elevator with a strange man. His advice is never to worry about hurting the man's feelings because your safety is far more important than what some strange man might think about you.

Toni's point seems to be that sometimes it's difficult to know if a trans female who hasn't fully transitioned physically is actually a trans female, if that person has male body parts. So, based on our natural fears as women, we would prefer not to be in a place where there are people who have male body parts, especially if they are exposed, like they might be in a locker room. I'm not ever going to be in a locker room and I'm almost never in a dressing room, so it's not a personal concern for me, but I do understand how Toni and most cis women probably feel about this issue. It has nothing to do with being transphobic. It's just a natural fear of being around naked people who appear to be male. I don't know why that is so hard to understand.

Some people are very comfortable being naked in public places and some of us aren't at all. I don't see this as necessarily being based on religion. We are all influenced by a lot of things, and women in particular are often shamed about their body sizes or shapes, so any open minded, compassionate person should be able to understand that a lot of women, as well as some men, don't feel comfortable being naked in public. I'm so fucking cold natured, that the thought of being naked in public gives me chills. Why would I subject myself to something that makes me feel uncomfortable on a few levels. I don't judge those of you who like being naked in public. It's just not for everyone.

Men are usually different when it comes to these things, but even a lot of men feel uncomfortable being naked or using a bathroom when women are present. I accidentally started to walk into a men's room in a large store a couple of years ago. A fully dressed man gave me a look of contempt when he saw me. I immediately apologized and walked out. Just because Europe has restrooms that are not gender specific doesn't mean that there is something wrong with cultures that don't accept this. To condemn other cultures that have slight differences from your own is very judgmental.

I know Toni doesn't need me to defend her, but I learned a long time ago, that women are stronger when we band together. I accept transgendered people and I sympathize with the prejudice that they face. I hope the future will bring them better medical care and wider acceptance by all of society. Still, if trans females want to bond well with cis females, I think they should at least try to understand our perspective, because I know, having spoken to other cis women about this issue, that at least so far, they all agree with Toni's perspective. She has suggested that single rooms be used for places where women need to change or shower. That way, everyone feels comfortable. This isn't just about safety, imo. It's about having privacy. I even like having privacy from other cis women when it comes to changing my clothing or exposing my body parts. I know I'm not alone. I would hope that trans females would also want some privacy, knowing how much prejudice they still face, probably from a majority of others at this point in time. Perhaps eventually this will change but social change doesn't happen over night.

I had no intention of getting involved with this discussion, but after reading lots of recent posts, it seemed as if a lot of the men were piling on a female instead of trying to understand her viewpoint. I've never had the impression that Toni holds any hate or prejudice toward minorities of any kind.

Let me add that I didn't read Emily's most recent posts when I wrote this because I started writing it before lunch and then came back to finish it. I agree with a lot of her points as well, not everything, but it fine imo, for women to disagree on a few points.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I certainly do NOT wish to outlaw trans individuals and in fact, I do want them to feel safe, happy, healthy, etc. But nope, I do not trust that I would not be startled or alarmed and confused if I saw a naked stranger with a penis in the women's locker room or shower, especially if I were myself naked. I am pretty certain I would immediately cover up and leave and then speak with management. I would be very unlikely to return if I were told that was something I should simply expect. I am guessing I would feel differently if this were someone I already knew and was aware that they were a pre/non-surgical trans woman. Because I would not be so surprised at finding that person in a female only space. Depending on how well I knew the person, I might not even be uncomfortable but I think I'd probably have to know them fairly well.

Want them to feel safe? No--your position is going to get them murdered.

No, I'm NOT in any way, shape or form in favor of outlawing or disapproving of or shaming trans individuals. I am for allowing EVERYONE, including trans people, to feel safe in sex segregated locker rooms. Maybe you should contemplate why gay men, trans individuals and generally speaking queer people are afraid to use men's facilities. Here's a hint: It's because MEN are often violent towards gay men, transgender individuals and anyone on the LGBTQIA range. Maybe YOU need to address your own queer phobia and encourage other cis males to be more accepting and certainly far less violent. The world would be a much better place if men learned to deal with their fears and their anger without being violent.

And you even see the problem, yet stick your head in the sand about it. A MtF forced into a male locker room would face considerable danger in many places--a danger you simply blame men for and dismiss. The data says the MtF in a female space is not a problem.

I know that you are absolutely allergic to reading links but I did link an article upthread that indicates that in fact, there are more acts of violence against women in facilities that are unisex or mix men with women. Maybe consider actually doing a little reading. Or thinking. Either would be a novelty.

You have one article from a questionable source. There's a lot more that says the opposite of what you're saying.

 

[Emily Lake]

it has NOTHING to do with being 'afraid' of people with penises.

Women are conditioned/trained/learn from experience that naked strangers with penises standing next to them in showers are to be regarded as threats

"It has nothing to do with fear, it just has everything to do with fear."

This means deprogramming, not deferral.

So, women should be deprogrammed to not be afraid of naked strangers with penises in places they do not expect to encounter them?

Women should ignore the threat of rape and sexual assault? Women should just assume any naked stranger with a penis is a benign individual who intends them no harm?

Apparently we should also dress like lambs and walk into the wolf pack with a big smile on our faces and a sign that says "I'm delicious!".

 

[Toni]

Again: I certainly am NOT talking about being offended. I do not find anything about the human body offensive, although I do think that some things people might choose to do with their own human body to be offensive (crapping on the dinner table, for example is not just unhygienic but also offensive). Walking about with your genitals exposed (any genitals) is often but not always offensive, depending on the circumstances and sometimes is indicative of acute intoxication or acute mental illness. Not always, of course. Sometimes, walking around with your genitals exposed is perfectly acceptable and even expected. Context matters.

You're missing the fact that we generally aren't protected from offensive things.

I'm talking about something that YOU do NOT have any experience with and apparently are incapable of having anything resembling empathy with: Women are constantly in some state of surveillance of their surroundings and of their own appearance and behavior, looking out for danger. Most of us can keep that need for surveillance to a minimum in most circumstances but yes, women are more attuned to signs of danger for themselves and for any offspring they might have. It's hardwired into us by nature and society has taught us that we must constantly monitor our surroundings, our dress, our behavior because if we make any kind of mistake, however innocent, we might be attacked and if we are attacked, every single thing about our dress, our behavior, our surroundings will be used against us in a court of law, if it gets that far. Most of the time, it does not get that far, even if it is reported, which most of the time it is not.

And you still haven't established that nudity has anything to do with the actual threat. Keeping reiterating that there is a threat doesn't change this lacking.

You continue to ignore that this is not about being offended. I'm not offended by nudity or by penises. I would not be offended to find a naked stranger with a penis standing next to me in a women's locker room. I would be alarmed.

I don't know what kind of joy you get out of pretending that this is about women being prudish and offended by male nudity but I consider it to be your own personal form of masturbation and so I will leave you to it without further participation on my part.

You are still failing to establish a connection.

Yes, women have legitimate reason to fear men--nobody's contesting that. What you are failing to establish is why locker rooms are any greater threat than life in general, especially as the data says otherwise.

What data shows otherwise? Because I posted a link Upthread ( that you if course ignored) that stated otherwise.

If you’ve got studies, please link them. Otherwise we will all just recognize it for wishful posting.

 

[Emily Lake]

So, women should be deprogrammed to not be afraid of naked strangers with penises in places they do not expect to encounter them?

They should not be allowed to discriminate against other women on the basis of their personal fears. There is a huge difference between being afraid of someone and assaulting them, or trying to get the government to do it for you.

If what way is a male a woman?

What do a transwoman and a female human have in common with each other, that they do NOT have in common with male humans, and that can be objectively verified by a third party?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

It is also not permissible or acceptable to expect women to instantaneously recognize that the naked stranger with a penis beside them in the shower or locker room is of no threat to them.

Because in almost every single circumstance and certainly in likely every single previous circumstance when a woman is confronted with a naked adult stranger with a penis, there IS an intended threat to her safety.

Refusing to recognize that reality is reprehensible.

Note: my position is to advocate for universal stalls with doors in all locker rooms and showers.

Self-fulfilling prophecy problem--if it's not legal for said penis to be there then it's a strong indication of a criminal. If it is legal, however, it doesn't mean they're a criminal.

You obviously do not know or understand what a self fulfilling prophecy is. Nor do you understand relevance.

Most men are not rapists but some are rapists. It is very difficult/impossible to know simply by sight which are and which are not rapists. One must evaluate behavior. Encountering a naked stranger with a penis standing next to you in a woman's shower would be one indication that there is someone who does not belong there because it is absolutely impossible to know immediately if the naked stranger with a penis is actually a trans woman who has no intention of causing harm or a rapist. If you know a way to immediately tell, you would be doing the world a favor by sharing your methods.

And you can make exactly the same argument with regard to blacks in white spaces--only with the difference that there actually is an increased threat in that situation.

BTW, why should pre/non-surgical trans women feel unsafe in a men's locker room?

We seem to be lacking a jaw drop simile.

1) They're female-presenting. That's enough to cause big problems in some areas.

2) You seem to regard surgery as a binary state: Nope, top surgery is far more common than bottom surgery. MtF with surgery will typically have breasts and a penis.

It seems to be all but impossible to find an uncensored non-porn image so this will have to do. While the image at the top of the page is what I'm talking about scroll down at your own risk, this is a porn site!

Spoiler

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[Toni]

I certainly do NOT wish to outlaw trans individuals and in fact, I do want them to feel safe, happy, healthy, etc. But nope, I do not trust that I would not be startled or alarmed and confused if I saw a naked stranger with a penis in the women's locker room or shower, especially if I were myself naked. I am pretty certain I would immediately cover up and leave and then speak with management. I would be very unlikely to return if I were told that was something I should simply expect. I am guessing I would feel differently if this were someone I already knew and was aware that they were a pre/non-surgical trans woman. Because I would not be so surprised at finding that person in a female only space. Depending on how well I knew the person, I might not even be uncomfortable but I think I'd probably have to know them fairly well.

Want them to feel safe? No--your position is going to get them murdered.

No, I'm NOT in any way, shape or form in favor of outlawing or disapproving of or shaming trans individuals. I am for allowing EVERYONE, including trans people, to feel safe in sex segregated locker rooms. Maybe you should contemplate why gay men, trans individuals and generally speaking queer people are afraid to use men's facilities. Here's a hint: It's because MEN are often violent towards gay men, transgender individuals and anyone on the LGBTQIA range. Maybe YOU need to address your own queer phobia and encourage other cis males to be more accepting and certainly far less violent. The world would be a much better place if men learned to deal with their fears and their anger without being violent.

And you even see the problem, yet stick your head in the sand about it. A MtF forced into a male locker room would face considerable danger in many places--a danger you simply blame men for and dismiss. The data says the MtF in a female space is not a problem.

I know that you are absolutely allergic to reading links but I did link an article upthread that indicates that in fact, there are more acts of violence against women in facilities that are unisex or mix men with women. Maybe consider actually doing a little reading. Or thinking. Either would be a novelty.

You have one article from a questionable source. There's a lot more that says the opposite of what you're saying.

Excuse me: You are admitting that a MTF would be at risk in a male locker room. At least two posters in this thread have written about being unsafe in male locker rooms.

It is pretty obvious that the threat to other people’s safety comes from MEN. #NotAllMen, obviously.

So if MEN admit that they feel threatened/at risk of violence and harm from other men in dressing g rooms, WHY on earth do you think that women should meekly accept a naked person with a penis in their shower without any concern?