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Obama: Free College!

Why is he calling it "free"? Someone, somewhere is going to pay for it (if it happens).
Community College is relatively free compared to 4-yr schools. About 1/10 the cost.

The government is already paying interest on crap loans to fake colleges like Phoenix. Stop doing that and get students an accredited education, or at least the start to one.
 
Why is he calling it "free"? Someone, somewhere is going to pay for it (if it happens).
Community College is relatively free compared to 4-yr schools. About 1/10 the cost.

The government is already paying interest on crap loans to fake colleges like Phoenix. Stop doing that and get students an accredited education, or at least the start to one.

They were about to do that until the Senators with large portfolios of for-profit "colleges" talked them out of it. It is one of the greatest scams. You basically get a hoard of free money.

  • Get student to max out loans.
  • Student gets worthless credential or drops out.
  • College gets paid in full
  • Student is stuck with a mortgage sized loan that they must pay back.
  • Transfer of monies from poor to rich is complete with no risk to the rich.
 
It's a great idea, I hope it actually happens.

Maybe at the same time, we can work to make sure that High School education goes back to being free. The last few years my kids were in High School, that once free education started to demand fees for books, lab fees, and dress codes (read uniforms) in public schools, which required additional outlays for conforming wardrobes. It was not a huge expense, maybe $150 per child for the first year we had to buy new clothes, and $50-$100 in subsequent years, but it can add up if one is on a limited budget, and has several kids in High School at the same time.
 
There are some real quality issues here. Community colleges typically have different missions than universities and colleges, and typically have lower admission standards. In addition, their teaching staff may have fewer qualifications than those at university. However, there is a tremendous pressure of public universities to accept community college courses in transfer. Which may mean that a student transfers into upper division courses at an university without having the actual content and experience in the prerequisite courses. Here are two real world examples. At the previous university where I taught, we accepted all community college courses. Typically, the first statistics course at a community college covered about half of what the first statistics course at the university covered. So, students who transferred with that first course were at a tremendous disadvantage. Naturally, the problem was the result of the transfer policy or the community colleges, but our expectations. Now, I am employed in an "integrated" system where the community colleges and universities are in one system. The first course in accounting at some of the community colleges uses the same text as the universities but they cover half the chapters that the university course covers. Yet the course transfers and the students' (and legislators') expectations are the course is identical.

So, I have reservations about this plan, because I see the real potential for further watering down of the university education even though this proposal does not directly address university education.
 
There are some real quality issues here. Community colleges typically have different missions than universities and colleges, and typically have lower admission standards. In addition, their teaching staff may have fewer qualifications than those at university. However, there is a tremendous pressure of public universities to accept community college courses in transfer. Which may mean that a student transfers into upper division courses at an university without having the actual content and experience in the prerequisite courses. Here are two real world examples. At the previous university where I taught, we accepted all community college courses. Typically, the first statistics course at a community college covered about half of what the first statistics course at the university covered. So, students who transferred with that first course were at a tremendous disadvantage. Naturally, the problem was the result of the transfer policy or the community colleges, but our expectations. Now, I am employed in an "integrated" system where the community colleges and universities are in one system. The first course in accounting at some of the community colleges uses the same text as the universities but they cover half the chapters that the university course covers. Yet the course transfers and the students' (and legislators') expectations are the course is identical.

So, I have reservations about this plan, because I see the real potential for further watering down of the university education even though this proposal does not directly address university education.

My concern. In addition to those above is that there will be even greater pressure to save money, pushing more and more classes to an online format.

This is suitable for some content and for some students. But I doubt it will be limited to those instances. Students will be cheated of their opportunity at a good education as surely as they are now.

I am more in favor of free education through graduate school/professional school.
 
There are some real quality issues here. Community colleges typically have different missions than universities and colleges, and typically have lower admission standards. In addition, their teaching staff may have fewer qualifications than those at university. However, there is a tremendous pressure of public universities to accept community college courses in transfer. Which may mean that a student transfers into upper division courses at an university without having the actual content and experience in the prerequisite courses. Here are two real world examples. At the previous university where I taught, we accepted all community college courses. Typically, the first statistics course at a community college covered about half of what the first statistics course at the university covered. So, students who transferred with that first course were at a tremendous disadvantage. Naturally, the problem was the result of the transfer policy or the community colleges, but our expectations. Now, I am employed in an "integrated" system where the community colleges and universities are in one system. The first course in accounting at some of the community colleges uses the same text as the universities but they cover half the chapters that the university course covers. Yet the course transfers and the students' (and legislators') expectations are the course is identical.

So, I have reservations about this plan, because I see the real potential for further watering down of the university education even though this proposal does not directly address university education.

There are ways to mitigate your fears. When I worked in Student Support Services at a small community college, we had a very popular college transfer program. I think it was a good one too, but I'm biased. Anyway, when discussing a student's course of study, the first thing I would ask is what in your planned major at university. I would then speak plainly and say that they might no want to take those class at the comm. col. Get the rest of you general college course out of the way here, then do all your major classes at the university. If you have to do some of those classes here, you might want to audit them again once you get to university to make sure you are up to speed.

and lets be honest about university, shall we? If you are a communications major, are you really going to use or care about the freshman biology class you took? no one at university is taking four solid years of course in their major. half those years are time spent getting that well rounded liberal arts education that doesn't get you hired, And that is what most people want, to get hired, not to understand the intricacies of Hedda Gabler.
 
Meh. This is unremarkable when you take into account most kids debt accrues when they get into 4-year college, not 2-year; but also that other nations all around the world provides higher education to citizens without tuition or for extremely low fees.

Forgive the student debt, first of all. Then directly fund all higher education institutions, second. Anything less than that is worthless, especially when he's a lame duck. He can force the issue of debt forgiveness and direct funding, at least, but he's playing this like he played healthcare. Not even considering single-payer, and then meekly backing off a public option. Lame shit.

Have to agree with this. Obama is a good speaker, but he really hasn't been what I was hoping he would be.
 
There are some real quality issues here. Community colleges typically have different missions than universities and colleges, and typically have lower admission standards. In addition, their teaching staff may have fewer qualifications than those at university. However, there is a tremendous pressure of public universities to accept community college courses in transfer. Which may mean that a student transfers into upper division courses at an university without having the actual content and experience in the prerequisite courses. Here are two real world examples. At the previous university where I taught, we accepted all community college courses. Typically, the first statistics course at a community college covered about half of what the first statistics course at the university covered. So, students who transferred with that first course were at a tremendous disadvantage. Naturally, the problem was the result of the transfer policy or the community colleges, but our expectations. Now, I am employed in an "integrated" system where the community colleges and universities are in one system. The first course in accounting at some of the community colleges uses the same text as the universities but they cover half the chapters that the university course covers. Yet the course transfers and the students' (and legislators') expectations are the course is identical.

So, I have reservations about this plan, because I see the real potential for further watering down of the university education even though this proposal does not directly address university education.

My concern. In addition to those above is that there will be even greater pressure to save money, pushing more and more classes to an online format.

This is suitable for some content and for some students. But I doubt it will be limited to those instances. Students will be cheated of their opportunity at a good education as surely as they are now.

I am more in favor of free education through graduate school/professional school.

The only thing I have found to be better on line is Language Lab. You are just listening to recorded conversations about train stations and how to get to the library. Better to do that in your bedroom than in a language lab where half the headsets don't work and you are surrounded by people speaking badly in multiple languages, none of them the one you are studying.
 
Depends very much on the particular student. Some students do better with online courses or with just studying and learning for themselves with textbooks and library resources. Others do better with constant interaction with teachers and other students. Both routes should be available, so each student may get what they need.
 
This may just be a corporate handout. Community colleges partner with local industry now for workforce training. Our local utility has a two year program with a couple colleges. Maybe the feds will pick up the corporate half now.

I'd like to see the GI Bill made available to anyone willing to do two years charity work overseas. This would be the most character building work in the most character building locations, of course. I think this would have the added benefit of having some more mature students in our universities. It would also take them out of their socioeconomic bubble.

On line courses can be quite rigorous if the university/college structures it as such. I've had assignments that forced required me to interact with society. They are rarely the 'sit in front of the computer only' classes I hope for.
 
There are some real quality issues here. Community colleges typically have different missions than universities and colleges, and typically have lower admission standards. In addition, their teaching staff may have fewer qualifications than those at university. However, there is a tremendous pressure of public universities to accept community college courses in transfer. Which may mean that a student transfers into upper division courses at an university without having the actual content and experience in the prerequisite courses. Here are two real world examples. At the previous university where I taught, we accepted all community college courses. Typically, the first statistics course at a community college covered about half of what the first statistics course at the university covered. So, students who transferred with that first course were at a tremendous disadvantage. Naturally, the problem was the result of the transfer policy or the community colleges, but our expectations. Now, I am employed in an "integrated" system where the community colleges and universities are in one system. The first course in accounting at some of the community colleges uses the same text as the universities but they cover half the chapters that the university course covers. Yet the course transfers and the students' (and legislators') expectations are the course is identical.

So, I have reservations about this plan, because I see the real potential for further watering down of the university education even though this proposal does not directly address university education.

There are ways to mitigate your fears. When I worked in Student Support Services at a small community college, we had a very popular college transfer program. I think it was a good one too, but I'm biased. Anyway, when discussing a student's course of study, the first thing I would ask is what in your planned major at university. I would then speak plainly and say that they might no want to take those class at the comm. col. Get the rest of you general college course out of the way here, then do all your major classes at the university. If you have to do some of those classes here, you might want to audit them again once you get to university to make sure you are up to speed.
There is much more pressure to reduce the expense of education on the student. When an education is viewed primarily as a certification process for a job, there is little concern about quality. I have seen this first hand in my system. And, I don't see any reason to think that our system is different in this regard.
and lets be honest about university, shall we? If you are a communications major, are you really going to use or care about the freshman biology class you took? no one at university is taking four solid years of course in their major. half those years are time spent getting that well rounded liberal arts education that doesn't get you hired, And that is what most people want, to get hired, not to understand the intricacies of Hedda Gabler.
Of course many students do not care or appreciate the inherent value of a quality experience in their general education or distributional classes. But the faculty and society ought to care. And one never knows what one will need or like to know in the future.

I would have absolutely no problem with free community college for 2 years if and only if there was no expectation of transferability or that the admission standards were the same as universities. Since that is highly unlikely to be met, I fear with the slow deterioration of quality in an university education from this initiative. Maybe some think that is a small price to pay (i.e. the benefits outweigh the costs), but without adequate protections, I think this a good idea with the potentially devastating unintended effects.
 
There are some real quality issues here. Community colleges typically have different missions than universities and colleges, and typically have lower admission standards. In addition, their teaching staff may have fewer qualifications than those at university. However, there is a tremendous pressure of public universities to accept community college courses in transfer. Which may mean that a student transfers into upper division courses at an university without having the actual content and experience in the prerequisite courses. Here are two real world examples. At the previous university where I taught, we accepted all community college courses. Typically, the first statistics course at a community college covered about half of what the first statistics course at the university covered. So, students who transferred with that first course were at a tremendous disadvantage. Naturally, the problem was the result of the transfer policy or the community colleges, but our expectations. Now, I am employed in an "integrated" system where the community colleges and universities are in one system. The first course in accounting at some of the community colleges uses the same text as the universities but they cover half the chapters that the university course covers. Yet the course transfers and the students' (and legislators') expectations are the course is identical.

So, I have reservations about this plan, because I see the real potential for further watering down of the university education even though this proposal does not directly address university education.

My concern. In addition to those above is that there will be even greater pressure to save money, pushing more and more classes to an online format.

This is suitable for some content and for some students. But I doubt it will be limited to those instances. Students will be cheated of their opportunity at a good education as surely as they are now.

I am more in favor of free education through graduate school/professional school.

A couple of points before I start ribbing Laughing Dog over there at STATE.

For the record: Online courses are more expensive to setup and maintain and traditional aged students prefer classroom or blended courses. (The MOOC flop highlights the flaws of no-teacher automat courses and their ability to provide actual learning.) In fact many of our online courses are being switched from fully online to blended formats (students come in a few times a semester for projects, discussions and exams). Students and faculty like this arrangement. It allows for better flexibility.

Online only work best for adult learners holding full-time positions and especially for those that hold jobs requiring travel.

* Disclaimer I work for a major University on several degree and online programs.
 
For the record: Online courses are more expensive to setup and maintain and traditional aged students prefer classroom or blended courses. (The MOOC flop highlights the flaws of no-teacher automat courses and their ability to provide actual learning.) In fact many of our online courses are being switched from fully online to blended formats (students come in a few times a semester for projects, discussions and exams). Students and faculty like this arrangement. It allows for better flexibility.
All of that assumes a commitment to maintain the quality of the experience.
 
There are some real quality issues here. Community colleges typically have different missions than universities and colleges, and typically have lower admission standards. In addition, their teaching staff may have fewer qualifications than those at university. However, there is a tremendous pressure of public universities to accept community college courses in transfer. Which may mean that a student transfers into upper division courses at an university without having the actual content and experience in the prerequisite courses. Here are two real world examples. At the previous university where I taught, we accepted all community college courses. Typically, the first statistics course at a community college covered about half of what the first statistics course at the university covered. So, students who transferred with that first course were at a tremendous disadvantage. Naturally, the problem was the result of the transfer policy or the community colleges, but our expectations. Now, I am employed in an "integrated" system where the community colleges and universities are in one system. The first course in accounting at some of the community colleges uses the same text as the universities but they cover half the chapters that the university course covers. Yet the course transfers and the students' (and legislators') expectations are the course is identical.

So, I have reservations about this plan, because I see the real potential for further watering down of the university education even though this proposal does not directly address university education.

There are ways to mitigate your fears. When I worked in Student Support Services at a small community college, we had a very popular college transfer program. I think it was a good one too, but I'm biased. Anyway, when discussing a student's course of study, the first thing I would ask is what in your planned major at university. I would then speak plainly and say that they might no want to take those class at the comm. col. Get the rest of you general college course out of the way here, then do all your major classes at the university. If you have to do some of those classes here, you might want to audit them again once you get to university to make sure you are up to speed.

and lets be honest about university, shall we? If you are a communications major, are you really going to use or care about the freshman biology class you took? no one at university is taking four solid years of course in their major. half those years are time spent getting that well rounded liberal arts education that doesn't get you hired, And that is what most people want, to get hired, not to understand the intricacies of Hedda Gabler.

But one of the things that major employers continually state they are looking for are just that, well rounded individuals that know how to think and not simply do the job. They actually seek out and have asked us to require a full liberal education core as part of our applied degrees. The critical thinking helps organizations more flexible, or so the belief is in industry.*

*Caveat: I work with employers who are looking for these skills. This means that I don't hear from the employers who are just looking for the technical skills only. So, yes I am biased.

- - - Updated - - -

For the record: Online courses are more expensive to setup and maintain and traditional aged students prefer classroom or blended courses. (The MOOC flop highlights the flaws of no-teacher automat courses and their ability to provide actual learning.) In fact many of our online courses are being switched from fully online to blended formats (students come in a few times a semester for projects, discussions and exams). Students and faculty like this arrangement. It allows for better flexibility.
All of that assumes a commitment to maintain the quality of the experience.

That quality is what maintains our competitive edge and allow us to differentiate from WISCONSIN. GRRRR! (And saves us money.)
 
There are ways to mitigate your fears. When I worked in Student Support Services at a small community college, we had a very popular college transfer program. I think it was a good one too, but I'm biased. Anyway, when discussing a student's course of study, the first thing I would ask is what in your planned major at university. I would then speak plainly and say that they might no want to take those class at the comm. col. Get the rest of you general college course out of the way here, then do all your major classes at the university. If you have to do some of those classes here, you might want to audit them again once you get to university to make sure you are up to speed.

and lets be honest about university, shall we? If you are a communications major, are you really going to use or care about the freshman biology class you took? no one at university is taking four solid years of course in their major. half those years are time spent getting that well rounded liberal arts education that doesn't get you hired, And that is what most people want, to get hired, not to understand the intricacies of Hedda Gabler.

But one of the things that major employers continually state they are looking for are just that, well rounded individuals that know how to think and not simply do the job. They actually seek out and have asked us to require a full liberal education core as part of our applied degrees. The critical thinking helps organizations more flexible, or so the belief is in industry.*

*Caveat: I work with employers who are looking for these skills. This means that I don't hear from the employers who are just looking for the technical skills only. So, yes I am biased.
Apparently those employers do not pay attention to or join the Chamber of Commerce or the Minnesota Business Partnership, both who mightily push for less support for higher education.
 
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