Nordstream sabotage

[Jayjay]

Ukraine has this capability? It is one thing to fly a drone into a bridge pier. It is another to attack a submerged utility line.

First of all, it was not a drone, it was a truck bomb. Second of all, this "Ukraine did it" is a lame and pathetic attempt to react to Hersh investigation.
US government is engaged in industrial terrorism. Not to mention ordinary one.

So just to be clear, you admit that Russian MoD is lying when it says it was the UK instead of the Americans and Norway like Hersh is claiming?

Hersh's "investigation", i.e. one anonymous source, has been debunked already. He made numerous factual errors that could have been avoided if the old crank had made even the simplest attempt at fact checking. For example, he or his source claimed that Jens Stoltenberg has been working with the CIA since the Vietnam war... when he was 16. Or that planes that were not even in active use yet were used in the operation. And a bunch of other things, you know how to use google.

I've heard though that Hersh has allegedly responded to some of these criticisms, so I should check that out. But Hersh doesn't have much of a track record in recent years and the man doesn't have very much credibility anymore.

The US had little reason to blow up the pipes because there was no gas flowing anyway, and risk of getting caught is pretty high because Americans can't keep anything secret. I find the idea that it could've been Ukraine (though I'm skeptical that it was just some independent actor) at least plausible, even if Russia still had both the motive and the means. Unlike you, I follow the evidence, and change my mind if something new shows up.

I think that it is awesome we hit the Russians hard

You hit Europeans, Russia can sell gas to China just fine.
Not to mention, use it in Russia.

You do realize that if Russia is doing fine without the pipes, it just gives more credence to the claim that it was Russia who blew them up?

 

[Jayjay]

Ukraine has this capability? It is one thing to fly a drone into a bridge pier. It is another to attack a submerged utility line.

I don't think you don't need a submarine or any advanced technology to do this. Depth charges is old technology by now. As long as you know where the pipe is, (fyi, information in the public domain) all you need is an explosive device that will go straight down and explode on impact. There were a number of boats seen on the surface before the explosions. So I am assuming, that's how it was done. Any little shit boat could have been used for this.

I don't think it would be safe to do it live, when the boat is still above the location. Too much risk to get caught, and possibly also unsafe if the pipe starts leaking massive amounts of gas mixing with the water.

Timed charge seems much more plausible to me. Or one triggered by some signal (like Hersh claimed: a buyo that sends a sonic trigger). The problem with remote detonation is that you probably need a special radio to get that deep, and sound waves would be detectable from a very far away to anyone... unless the Swedish detection systems really are crap.

I think it's interesting that only 3 of the four pipes were hit. I wonder if there is a dud still somewhere along the 4th pipe that could be found and recovered intact? Or maybe there was a mishap when laying them down and they had to abort the 4th one for some reason.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Ukraine has this capability? It is one thing to fly a drone into a bridge pier. It is another to attack a submerged utility line.

First of all, it was not a drone, it was a truck bomb. Second of all, this "Ukraine did it" is a lame and pathetic attempt to react to Hersh investigation.
US government is engaged in industrial terrorism. Not to mention ordinary one.

What?! How can a truck drive on the ocean floor?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Timed charge seems much more plausible to me. Or one triggered by some signal (like Hersh claimed: a buyo that sends a sonic trigger). The problem with remote detonation is that you probably need a special radio to get that deep, and sound waves would be detectable from a very far away to anyone... unless the Swedish detection systems really are crap.

I think it's interesting that only 3 of the four pipes were hit. I wonder if there is a dud still somewhere along the 4th pipe that could be found and recovered intact? Or maybe there was a mishap when laying them down and they had to abort the 4th one for some reason.

Remote is easy enough--a long wire connected to a float.

 

[Jayjay]

There's also a theory that the Nordstream 2 explosion may have been an accident. It happened 80 km away from the other two, and it looks different.

So maybe NS2 pipe just broke and whoever had the explosives planted at NS1 took the opportunity to blow them up too in the confusion. It could still have been Russia though; nice way to cover up their incompetence.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Ukraine has this capability? It is one thing to fly a drone into a bridge pier. It is another to attack a submerged utility line.

I don't think you don't need a submarine or any advanced technology to do this. Depth charges is old technology by now. As long as you know where the pipe is, (fyi, information in the public domain) all you need is an explosive device that will go straight down and explode on impact. There were a number of boats seen on the surface before the explosions. So I am assuming, that's how it was done. Any little shit boat could have been used for this.

I don't think it would be safe to do it live, when the boat is still above the location. Too much risk to get caught, and possibly also unsafe if the pipe starts leaking massive amounts of gas mixing with the water.

Timed charge seems much more plausible to me. Or one triggered by some signal (like Hersh claimed: a buyo that sends a sonic trigger). The problem with remote detonation is that you probably need a special radio to get that deep, and sound waves would be detectable from a very far away to anyone... unless the Swedish detection systems really are crap.

I think it's interesting that only 3 of the four pipes were hit. I wonder if there is a dud still somewhere along the 4th pipe that could be found and recovered intact? Or maybe there was a mishap when laying them down and they had to abort the 4th one for some reason.

If it is depth charges that have been used they aren't particularly accurate. The way they are used is that you drop a lot of them and hope for the best. That can explain how one pipe was missed. They can be put on a delay timer. I assume they armed them to go off at the same time, chucked them overboard and left. I agree, they're unlikely to have them explode on impact. From the surface to the bottom, WW2 era depth charges would take 1 minute and 11 seconds to hit the bottom of the Baltic. Anyway, depth charges are super low tech and easy to use.

Fun fact, when I was growing up our egg timer was a British WW2 explosive device delay timer, complete with a mercury blasting cap, ie if you would attempt to stop or interrupt the timer while it's counting down, then you will trigger an immediate explosion. This is unrelated. But this is the first time I have had an opportunity to brag about our egg timer. I think it's cool. Our egg timer did NOT have any explosive attached to it. So it was child safe

 

[DrZoidberg]

There's also a theory that the Nordstream 2 explosion may have been an accident. It happened 80 km away from the other two, and it looks different.

So maybe NS2 pipe just broke and whoever had the explosives planted at NS1 took the opportunity to blow them up too in the confusion. It could still have been Russia though; nice way to cover up their incompetence.

Perhaps the gas escaped from a Wuhan lab?

 

[barbos]

Hersh's "investigation", i.e. one anonymous source, has been debunked already.

Nope. It was not. What was debunked was your ridiculous "six guys and a boat" theory

 

[barbos]

Good for Georgian people that their government backed down instead of shooting at the crowds like Yanukovich did in Ukraine.

You are aware that US has exactly same law, aren't you?
And you are aware that ...... EU and Canada are passing the same law, right now! Right now, while criticizing Georgian government.

These protests against NGO transparency are organized by Nuland&Co. Moreover, they did not stop once democratically elected government decided to back down. Which should tell you that the goal was to regime change Georgia for their refusal to start a second front against Russia. That NGO scam who participated in these riots should be all arrested and thrown to jail.
Georgian government knows all that. Burjanadze explained it all to them, Remember her?

 

[barbos]

In moldova, Russia is funding and organizing protests and trying to topple the pro-EU government.

Yeah, and pro-EU (anti-Russia) government was installed by US/EU. Tell me something I don't know.

 

[Jayjay]

Hersh's "investigation", i.e. one anonymous source, has been debunked already.

Nope. It was not. What was debunked was your ridiculous "six guys and a boat" theory

Yes, that story doesn't seem to pan out because the boat isn't big enough for the amount of explosives needed. But at least the boat in question exists, which is more than can be said of Hersh's piece of fiction.

What does it take to debunk something? Hersh has made some verifiably false claims in his narrative, like Stoltenberg working for CIA since he was a teenager, or the types of vessels Norway has, map of military bases he used (which he has admitted was not accurate), the airplane that allegedly dropped the buoy, and so on. If he gets verifiable details wrong, it shows he did zero fact checking, and the details we can't verify yet are probably completely false also. If the USA was involved in the bombing, which is within the realm of possible, Hersh's version of the story is still likely to be some made-up bullshit; not only are currently known facts against it, "Norway did it" is just a dumb premise to begin with.

A good summary how Hersh's claims have been refuted here:

Flere feil om norsk innblanding i Nord Stream-sabotasjen

En gjennomgang av påstandene om norsk delaktighet i Nord Stream-sabotasjen.

www-faktisk-no.translate.goog

 

[Jayjay]

Good for Georgian people that their government backed down instead of shooting at the crowds like Yanukovich did in Ukraine.

You are aware that US has exactly same law, aren't you?
And you are aware that ...... EU and Canada are passing the same law, right now! Right now, while criticizing Georgian government.

No, it's not the same law. What was tried to be passed in Georgia was a carbon-copy of the law that Russia passed years ago, and which has been used to brand anyone who disagrees with the regime as "foreign agent" in kangaroo courts.

For example:

Top Russian court orders shutdown of human rights group Memorial

Group rejects charges and says there’s no legal basis for order.

www.politico.eu

These protests against NGO transparency are organized by Nuland&Co. Moreover, they did not stop once democratically elected government decided to back down. Which should tell you that the goal was to regime change Georgia for their refusal to start a second front against Russia.

So? The protests in France didn't end even if Macron won the vote of confidence. Protest leaders are always going to see how far they can go. In this case, the protests in Georgia seem to have died out, though there are plans for more in April.

But that's a normal thing in a democracy.

Georgian government knows all that. Burjanadze explained it all to them, Remember her?

I do, and her statements are not evidence for any kind of meddling. If it happens that people and NGOs who support democracy, freedom of speech, and civil society happen to be mostly anti-Russian, it's not because of any foul play, but because Russia is shithole dictatorship that is against all those things.

In moldova, Russia is funding and organizing protests and trying to topple the pro-EU government.

Yeah, and pro-EU (anti-Russia) government was installed by US/EU. Tell me something I don't know.

Unlike the things you "know", e.g. thr crackpot conspiracy theories involving Nuland, the things I know are based on evidence.

Case in point: recently leaked documents that show how Russia intends to fuck with Moldova in the coming decades.

Secret document reveals Russia's 10-year plan to destabilize Moldova | CNN

A secret plan drawn up by Russia's security service, the FSB, lays out detailed options to destabilize Moldova -- including supporting pro-Russian groups, utilizing the Orthodox Church and threatening to cut off supplies of natural gas.

edition.cnn.com

Russia had similar plans for Belarus, though more far-reaching because Belarus is already an occupied vassal state. And as usual, Russian propagandists are blaming everyone else for the things Russia is itself doing. It's pure projection.

 

[barbos]

Yes, that story doesn't seem to pan out because the boat isn't big enough for the amount of explosives needed. But at least the boat in question exists, which is more than can be said of Hersh's piece of fiction.

This is your stupidest post so far.

 

[barbos]

No, it's not the same law. What was tried to be passed in Georgia was a carbon-copy of the law that Russia passed years ago,

Russian law is a carbon copy of US law. So yeah, exactly the same law.

 

[barbos]

So? The protests in France didn't end even if Macron won the vote of confidence.

Why should they stop? He did not repeal his law.

 

[barbos]

Russia had similar plans for Belarus, though more far-reaching because Belarus is already an occupied vassal state. And as usual, Russian propagandists are blaming everyone else for the things Russia is itself doing. It's pure projection.

No, you have no proof of such plans. CNN is a neocon propaganda outfit. Everything they say is a lie.
Having said that, Russia does have policies regarding its neighbors. As any other country.
Even Baltic states have plans to destroy Russia.

Current Modavian president is a State Department puppet. She is US "educated" and installed puppet.
That's it. As far as Russians concerned she is 100% compromised. And it is in Russians interests to remove her as fast as possible.
And I expect plans for doing so. You install your puppets, we remove them.

 

[barbos]

There's also a theory that the Nordstream 2 explosion may have been an accident. It happened 80 km away from the other two, and it looks different.

So maybe NS2 pipe just broke and whoever had the explosives planted at NS1 took the opportunity to blow them up too in the confusion. It could still have been Russia though; nice way to cover up their incompetence.

You need serious help in head department. Even your criminal and corrupt governments concluded that there is zero chance of it being anything other than sabotage.

 

[barbos]

Regarding ICC illegal arrest warrant. Apparently it was literally illegal because it's not based on anything.
They should have lower court case or something to act on. There is nothing, not a single parent or anyone filed a case.
There was a one ukrainian soldier who had his child evacuated to Russia. So he went to Russia and took his child back to Ukraine without any problems. So these ICC judges broke the law and are in fact criminals and they WILL be arrested if they ever go to Russia.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

There was no Holocaust. None of those Jews or victims filed any charges during their alleged incarceration and execution. They are all criminal liars.

 

[barbos]

There was no Holocaust. None of those Jews or victims filed any charges during their alleged incarceration and execution. They are all criminal liars.

That's patently false and idiotic. There was plenty reports and evidence.
In the case of ICC there is none. In fact we have less than none. As I said, one of the "victims" went to Moscow and got his kid safe and sound. What russians did was evacuation of children and adults away from areas which were shelled by terrorist regime west installed in Ukraine.

What we have is politically motivated "rulling" by morally and legally corrupt court.
By signing off on this, collective west admits they have nothing.

By the way, compare this to what Nordic countries are used to doing. They are actually stealing children from their parents.