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Always believe the victim?

What a bunch of bullshit. Sexual violence is not unusual. Not at all.

Prosecuting someone for filing a false report is not a demonstration of a justice system working. At least not one that is working for victims of sexual violence.
 
Are false accusations of rape so prevalent they are something that requires immediate attention? Marty Klein is building one hell of a strawman argument based on the actions of one person. I would bet Jennifer Gries is the exception and not the rule, but I look forward to the impending whataboutisms from the usual suspects.
 
FFS, we went over this in detail.

Always investigate claims. Don't just decide out of hand that a claim is false or that investigating is a waste of time.

Why, you ask?

Because the rate of unfounded claims (false claims and/or claims for which supporting evidence cannot been found) is about 8%. Which means approx. 92% of the time, there is at minimum some truth to the claim and evidence which supports it, but it won't be found if the police disbelieve and dismiss the person making the report.

Interpreting the effort to get police to not ignore women reporting rapes as "don't bother thinking, just assume everything you're told it true" is ridiculous.
 
It is so telling, and so frustrating, that the article's author believes an instance of a serial liar making false accusations "is a perfect example of why all rape accusations need to be investigated“.

No, Dr. Klein. What happened in England to the two teenaged girls who told the police that Jimmy Savile had molested them is a perfect example.

What happened to Marie in the article cited in the thread I linked is another.

What happens in States that finally get around to testing backlogged rape kits is yet another.

It shouldn't take the possibility that a man was falsely accused to make reported rapes something deserving of diligent, good faith investigation. All it should take is the existence of a possible victim!
 
I wasn't aware that other colleges just threw people accused of rape in prison based on a mere accusation. I bet they took their guns too.

Also, we can tell this man is an asshole who needs to have an anvil fall on him because he actually used the term "anti-rape activist". Maybe make that a 100-ton safe. Well, you know where my thoughts and prayers will be.
 
Jimmy Higgins said:
Also, we can tell this man is an asshole who needs to have an anvil fall on him because he actually used the term "anti-rape activist".
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After reading the article I decided to read his wiki page. The guy seems appears to be a greater advocate for teaching kids sexuality over the importance of informed consent. Granted, wiki is less than reliable for stuff like this but it's a problematic hill to die on.
 
I'd say it would be hard to argue the tangential legitimate issues raised in his article any more poorly than he did. And he could be right about a lot of stuff, but still unbelievably wrong here.
 
I don't have the stats but the number of unreported rapes hugely dwarfs the number of false reports.

Arctish said:
. . . What happened to Marie in the article cited in the thread I linked is another.
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I had a hunch who you were talking about. From the linked thread:
repoman said:
I skimmed it, pretty sickening...

This story could easily be made into a very good (or very exploitive) movie.
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That thread was from 2016. The rape victim was hounded into recanting, then prosecuted for filing a false report. In 2018 Marie's true story, along with that of two female detectives tracking a serial rapist with many victims (including Marie), WAS made into an excellent Netflix miniseries:  Unbelievable (miniseries)
 
I read the entire article linked. Klein sounds like a real asshole who should not be allowed to 'teach' anyone anything about sexuality. I also checked into him via Wikipedia.
 
Toni said:
I read the entire article linked. Klein sounds like a real asshole who should not be allowed to 'teach' anyone anything about sexuality. I also checked into him via Wikipedia.
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You are just one of those anti-rape activists with your anti-rape agenda.

The article cries out like "Why don't Muslims speak out against terrorism?" or "Why don't Catholics speak out more against child sex abuse?" He is complaining about them complaining about rape being an issue on campus. The dumbass cites the 40% statistic of non-consensual sexual contact, and then mansplains 'but it ain't violent violent' and shouldn't be sold as it is. All the while missing the boat on the 2 in 5 women say guys did stuff to them they didn't want.

He is upset these women aren't wailing on the sidewalks over the legit injustice a woman caused a number of men. All the while glossing over the much more common situation of sexual abuse, assault, etc... that are happening. Makes me think of Bill Murray in the SNL skit First He Cried.
 
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So Loren, Your thoughts now on this article?

Doesn’t it recommend hounding actual victims into falsely recanting?
 
Toni said:
What a bunch of bullshit. Sexual violence is not unusual. Not at all.

Prosecuting someone for filing a false report is not a demonstration of a justice system working. At least not one that is working for victims of sexual violence.
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He's not saying that sexual violence is unusual. He's calling out the very thing you're supporting--supporting the "victim" who is actually the perpetrator. You're doing the same thing as saying that in a white-vs-black case the black guy is always guilty.
 
Arctish said:
Because the rate of unfounded claims (false claims and/or claims for which supporting evidence cannot been found) is about 8%. Which means approx. 92% of the time, there is at minimum some truth to the claim and evidence which supports it, but it won't be found if the police disbelieve and dismiss the person making the report.

Interpreting the effort to get police to not ignore women reporting rapes as "don't bother thinking, just assume everything you're told it true" is ridiculous.
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Nobody's saying not to investigate. The problem is people who say the victim should automatically be believed--that is, don't investigate.

And note that that 8% number is FBI stats for cases proven false. It doesn't count the cases which can't be disproven and it doesn't count the cases where the police realize it's fake (usually someone trying to cover up misbehavior) and dissuade the woman from making a report in the first place.
 
Jimmy Higgins said:
I wasn't aware that other colleges just threw people accused of rape in prison based on a mere accusation. I bet they took their guns too.

Also, we can tell this man is an asshole who needs to have an anvil fall on him because he actually used the term "anti-rape activist". Maybe make that a 100-ton safe. Well, you know where my thoughts and prayers will be.
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Colleges certainly can throw people in financial prison. Toss them out without their degree but with the burden of what they've paid so far. And you have no realistic defense if this happens to you.
 
Loren Pechtel said:
Toni said:
What a bunch of bullshit. Sexual violence is not unusual. Not at all.

Prosecuting someone for filing a false report is not a demonstration of a justice system working. At least not one that is working for victims of sexual violence.
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He's not saying that sexual violence is unusual. He's calling out the very thing you're supporting--supporting the "victim" who is actually the perpetrator. You're doing the same thing as saying that in a white-vs-black case the black guy is always guilty.
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No. He wrote exactly that sexual violence is unusual. See the quote from your link in the OP (my bold):

What they should have said is that uncovering these lies demonstrates a law enforcement program that is effectively addressing sexual violence; that actual sexual violence, while always egregious, is unusual; and that while most accusations of rape are true, this case shows that some are not.
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No one has ever said that any person making accusations of sexual violence, rape or any other crime must be believed without any sort of investigation! However, too often, victims are NOT believed, their cases are NOT investigated and at least sometimes, they are charged with making false accusations (see the case referred to upthread, which was discussed in a different thread some time ago). When people say: Believe women, they mean: Believe women and then investigate and discover the facts and evidence. NO ONE thinks that it is OK to make false allegations of any crime, period. AFAIK, EVERYONE thinks that all reports of criminal acts merit investigation, that evidence must be gathered and charges when evidence supports those charges.
It has long been established that rape victims are often not believed, that rape kits, even when collected, often languish in storage, and in some states, rape victims are forced to pay for their own rape kits.'

The article you linked downplays the prevalence of sexual violence on college campuses. It carefully avoids presenting actual facts and statistics. Almost every college campus does its level best to discourage students from reporting sexual assaults to the police and instead, encourages students to go to the student health center and/or student counseling services which prefer to handle allegations of sexual assault in house, where they can control the narrative and keep quiet any reports of sexual assault on campus. After all, it's a very negative look for any campus to admit that any of their students are ever the victims of sexual assault. Because of demographics (smaller pool of prospective students), campuses are even more competitive to get more butts in seats and more tuition dollars in their coffers. So yes! to fancy health centers and upgraded dorms! And a big NO to any reports of anything negative such as sexual assaults on campus or off campus! Every parent who sends their child to college really wants their child to be safe. Reports of sexual assault are huge red flags, even though this is an issue on virtually every campus in the country.
 
Loren Pechtel said:
Arctish said:
Because the rate of unfounded claims (false claims and/or claims for which supporting evidence cannot been found) is about 8%. Which means approx. 92% of the time, there is at minimum some truth to the claim and evidence which supports it, but it won't be found if the police disbelieve and dismiss the person making the report.

Interpreting the effort to get police to not ignore women reporting rapes as "don't bother thinking, just assume everything you're told it true" is ridiculous.
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Nobody's saying not to investigate. The problem is people who say the victim should automatically be believed--that is, don't investigate.

And note that that 8% number is FBI stats for cases proven false. It doesn't count the cases which can't be disproven and it doesn't count the cases where the police realize it's fake (usually someone trying to cover up misbehavior) and dissuade the woman from making a report in the first place.
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No one is saying a person reporting a rape or other crime should automatically be believed to be infallible, unfailingly accurate, experiencing no memory-related symptoms of shock or trauma, or incapable of lying.

No one.

The notion that people are saying the cops shouldn't investigate, they should just believe, is at best idiotic and at worst a callous rhetorical device to defend the long history of rape victims being ignored, dismissed, doubted for no apparent reason or for unjustifiable reasons such as misogyny, racism, classism, etc., and told to just toddle off home.

Note that you continue to be wrong about the meaning of the word 'unfounded' in the FBI crime statistic report the 92%-8% numbers come from, despite the FBI providing the definition in a footnote. The FBI clearly said reports were labelled unfounded when no corroborating evidence was found. It did not say those were cases where it had determined the report was false.
 
Loren Pechtel said:
Arctish said:
Because the rate of unfounded claims (false claims and/or claims for which supporting evidence cannot been found) is about 8%. Which means approx. 92% of the time, there is at minimum some truth to the claim and evidence which supports it, but it won't be found if the police disbelieve and dismiss the person making the report.

Interpreting the effort to get police to not ignore women reporting rapes as "don't bother thinking, just assume everything you're told it true" is ridiculous.
Click to expand...
Nobody's saying not to investigate. The problem is people who say the victim should automatically be believed--that is, don't investigate.

And note that that 8% number is FBI stats for cases proven false. It doesn't count the cases which can't be disproven and it doesn't count the cases where the police realize it's fake (usually someone trying to cover up misbehavior) and dissuade the woman from making a report in the first place.
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Loren, NOBODY thinks that rape allegations should not be investigated. But if an accuser is not believed, there IS NO INVESTIGATION. Also, often if the victim is believed, there is no allegation.

Historically, you have repeated the inaccurate statement that the 8% FBI stat is for cases proven false. This is false. The 8% stat is for cases not substantiated. Do you know why some portion of those cases are not substantiated? Because they are not investigated. Why aren't they investigated? Because the police don't believe the person reporting the crime.
 
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