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Too many people?

To me it seems like the point is to enjoy our time while we are here
Yes, that's exactly what I said.

We = People = Population.
No, this is slightly different at least as you stated it.

One says "more of us" and the other says "us as we are". It's the difference between "standard of living" and "growth".

More people enjoying the time is not necessary.

People enjoying the time more IS necessary.

The Christians (and others) who think adding more people is the point can go fuck themselves, or each other, or whatever
I can agree with this. As you originally presented it, it was not clarified as such.
 
Completely disagree. We manipulated our environment to meet our needs to levels unseen by other animals. Yes, animals and insects do use the environment, but we do it at a grand scale. And if super advanced races are out there, they do it at even larger scales.
So you are only interested in quantity. Quality doesn't matter. Is that your point?
No, my point was that supply chains are a bigger cause of misery than global shortages. Also, with economic development, population growth decreases.
 
Completely disagree. We manipulated our environment to meet our needs to levels unseen by other animals. Yes, animals and insects do use the environment, but we do it at a grand scale. And if super advanced races are out there, they do it at even larger scales.

This is straying from the point, but super advanced races don't exist. I don't want to get into this topic, but in a nutshell 'advanced intellect' isn't selective. Smart people have fewer babies, not more. Even labelling ourselves 'Sapiens' is a misnomer and misunderstanding of what characterizes us as a species. The most successful of us have social intelligence, not sheer processing power.

Yes we are more technically able than other animals, but technical innovation comes from a select few. The people producing technology don't reflect what the overwhelming number of people alive today are actually like.
 
Nobody even mentioned the other life on earth until page 3 of this thread. That's how it tends to go whenever this topic comes up. WHY should humans survive if they can't expand the circle of moral regard to include other life? HOW will they survive if they don't?
It is possible that humans are the only intelligent life in the universe (an insanely big place). We so far do not have any proof that we aren't according to science. Which would mean we are extremely rare and worthy to be preserved at all possible cost.
 
Quite possibly the dumbest fucking insurance policy out there. If we can't make it on Earth where resources are ridiculuosly abundant, how the heck do we make it anywhere else?
Its not a question of easy and hard its a question of not knowing what we do not know. There are many plausible ways we (on earth) could and likely will go extinct having nothing to do with normal atmosphere and gravity.
 
Other planets? There are no other planets. Mercury, Venus are no-go's. Jupiter and Saturn are not going to work, and if Mars didn't cut it, Uranus and Neptune, not happening.
We actually don't even need another planets or moons to colonize if we can build suitable habitats in space. And yes it is possible (we actually set foot on the moon in the 1960's) but it won't ever happen with your "can't do anything" attitude.
 
Quite possibly the dumbest fucking insurance policy out there. If we can't make it on Earth where resources are ridiculuosly abundant, how the heck do we make it anywhere else?
Its not a question of easy and hard its a question of not knowing what we do not know.
That's interesting, but not very helpful.
There are many plausible ways we (on earth) could and likely will go extinct having nothing to do with normal atmosphere and gravity.
The black death didn't do it. The third Star Wars trilogy didn't do it. And we survived the Cubs and Red Sox winning the World Series. Earth is by far, the best place for us to live within likely 1x10
20 km. There is no just in case. Living on Mars will suck. The Moon, not as much, but it will also suck. We need to be committed to Earth. We evolved for it, and it is tough to beat.
 
Other planets? There are no other planets. Mercury, Venus are no-go's. Jupiter and Saturn are not going to work, and if Mars didn't cut it, Uranus and Neptune, not happening.
We actually don't even need another planets or moons to colonize if we can build suitable habitats in space. And yes it is possible (we actually set foot on the moon in the 1960's) but it won't ever happen with your "can't do anything" attitude.
All the benefits of being on a hostile planet... without the ability to go outside. Fucking wonderful! Sign me up! How many people do you think could live in that confinement for a lifetime? Read up on this, and these people know they will eventually be able to leave Antarctica... on a small space station?
 
There are many plausible ways we (on earth) could and likely will go extinct having nothing to do with normal atmosphere and gravity.
The black death didn't do it.
A serious bio pandemic could though. Especially if it were a lab grown virus like someone would be stupid enough to invent.

How many Dutch Elm trees or Do Do Birds do you see today? They both went extinct in normal atmosphere and gravity.
 
Quite possibly the dumbest fucking insurance policy out there. If we can't make it on Earth where resources are ridiculuosly abundant, how the heck do we make it anywhere else?
Its not a question of easy and hard its a question of not knowing what we do not know.
That's interesting, but not very helpful.
There are many plausible ways we (on earth) could and likely will go extinct having nothing to do with normal atmosphere and gravity.
The black death didn't do it. The third Star Wars trilogy didn't do it. And we survived the Cubs and Red Sox winning the World Series. Earth is by far, the best place for us to live within likely 1x10
20 km. There is no just in case. Living on Mars will suck. The Moon, not as much, but it will also suck. We need to be committed to Earth. We evolved for it, and it is tough to beat.
The easiest way to live on Mars or the Moon is going to be figuring out how to do high resolution tensor scans of the human brain, and putting the result on a platform made of sand and metal instead of carbon and water.

Maybe that means we aren't "human" anymore but I really don't see why that is a problem as long as we are still PEOPLE at the end of the day.

The fact is that we can probably accomplish this with about $100k worth of A100's per human being. The real question about life on the moon is actually going to be thermal equilibrium management in a vacuum.

Some of that might be manageable with heat pumps, aerogel separators, and radiative surfaces, but that only goes so far...

In that way, Mars at least has an atmosphere which can sync heat through air exchange.
 
The absolute number of people is not simply a distraction. The population total influences the order of magnitude of the problems.
Perhaps. But not as much as that magnitude is influenced by other factors, (such as the amount of per capita consumption, and the choice of energy sources to feed that consumption, for example). There are myriad influences, and absolute population is just a tiny and trivial contributor to that magnitude.
Now, that doesn't mean a partial solution is to systematically reduce the number of people on the planet.
Indeed. So absolute population is simply a distraction, as it contributes nothing to our solution finding process whatsoever.
 
Nobody even mentioned the other life on earth until page 3 of this thread. That's how it tends to go whenever this topic comes up. WHY should humans survive if they can't expand the circle of moral regard to include other life? HOW will they survive if they don't?
It is possible that humans are the only intelligent life in the universe (an insanely big place). We so far do not have any proof that we aren't according to science. Which would mean we are extremely rare and worthy to be preserved at all possible cost.
Using that reasoning, manatees or butterflies or polar bears are extremely rare and worthy to be preserved.
 
The vision is to continue expanding outward to other places past Mars. If Mars dies, then there are still people on the moon, earth, and/or other planets to restart humanity again. A life insurance policy for the human species.
Life insurance policy? Ha! It's nothing more than a vanity program by wealthy assholes.
 
Where's the evidence that today's population is too high?
Its in the math.

This thread jogged my mind back to an old blog that I loved 10 years ago and had forgotten. Tom Murphy is a physicist who writes an excellent blog, Do the Math, in which he uses physics and math to show the extent of the human predicament. He has a few posts there that address your question.

Finite Feeding Frenzy Spoiler alert: This story doesn't have a happy ending.

Why Worry about Collapse? "If we don’t heed these concerns, it seems the likely outcome is overshoot; collapse; failure."

Peak Oil Perspective A big problem.

The Energy Trap Ah, no worries, you will just build some windmills? Where is the energy going to come from to make them all?

Why Not Space? Uh, no, you won't just trash this planet and find another one to move to.

Galactic-Scale Energy It doesn't matter how smart we are. We can't continually increasing energy usage 2.3% each year.

The Alternative Energy Matrix Which one of these can save us?

The Cult of Civilization Some surprising insights, including that Thomas Malthus was an optimist!

Post Index
The math depends on the belief that population will continue to grow exponentially.

That belief is observably false; Population is not growing exponentially any more (though it did for a couple of centuries, which led to justified concern that it could end in such a disaster).

Yes, indefinite (or even fairly long term) exponential growth is impossible without disaster. No, we don't need to worry about it, because it has finished. we killed it when we invented the oral contraceptive, and empowered women to decide how many children to have.

And my question, which I based on the observations that exponential growth is over, wasn't about any projected future population. Let me ask you again:

Where's the evidence that today's population is too high?

I already know why people were very worried about future population growth; And that that worry has turned out to be baseless.
 
From what I can tell, earth's population was estimated to be about 2 billion people about 100 years ago (1927). It is insane to think it is possible to intentionally return to that level without inhuman behavior. putting effective contraception in the hands of women, and giving girls access to a basic education
FTFY.
 
From what I can tell, earth's population was estimated to be about 2 billion people about 100 years ago (1927). It is insane to think it is possible to intentionally return to that level without inhuman behavior. putting effective contraception in the hands of women, and giving girls access to a basic education
FTFY.
It is possible, but from my reading of history and human behavior, I’d think it would take generations for that to work.
 
From what I can tell, earth's population was estimated to be about 2 billion people about 100 years ago (1927). It is insane to think it is possible to intentionally return to that level without inhuman behavior.
Just pass out a bunch of condoms, it will be fine.
The entire debate is predicated upon the completely false assumption, made by pretty much everyone prior to the middle of the twentieth century, that the fertility rates seen between the mid-Eighteenth and mid-Twentieth centuries represented the fertility rate that humans naturally and inevitably desired - ie. people assumed that family size was a conscious and explicit choice.

But the very instant that a mechanism became available whereby family sizes could be chosen without being subject to large numbers of unwanted "accidents", fertility rates plummeted.

It turned out that unplanned pregnancy wasn't the exception; It was the rule. And once significant numbers of women were empowered to avoid it (without drastic and undesirable changes to the rest of their lives), the entire problem went away.

Leaving just the meta-problem that people are always worrying about the big issues of their youth, even after those issues are resolved. Problems make headlines; Headlines breed fear; Fear stays with us long after it has lost all relevance.
 
IMO Musk has the correct response that we should be looking to Mars and/or the rest of the universe to at least further our overall odds against extinction. Because you can explore and conquer other planets without pissing anyone off who wants to have babies. Exploration and science will work when politics and dictating reproduction can't.
I hate to be the one to break this to you, but no, you won't be taking a trip to Mars to see your grandchildren. See https://dothemath.ucsd.edu/2011/10/why-not-space/ .
1) When it comes to technology how can we know if/when or how soon? Its more a case of ambition than it is engineering anyway.
2) Visiting grandchildren is not the purpose. Probability of survival is the goal.
If I was interested in surviving in a decimated Earth, I might try building my house under the ocean or on the South Pole. That would be far easier and cheaper than building a house on Mars, and would yield a far better quality of life.
 
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