Morality in Bible stories that you don't understand

[excreationist]

It is common for God's chosen people to suffer. After being slaves in Egypt they were captured by the Babylonians then in 69 CE the Romans killed lots of Jews and destroyed their temple, etc. Then there is the Holocaust and maybe other things.

'Cept the Babylonian captivity actually happened.

So the other things didn't actually happen?

 

[James Brown]

Interesting hypothesis. Define the level of suffering that is normal. How is it measured? Where do Jews fall on the suffering scale? Does the suffering that the Jews inflicted on other groups of peoples decrease their ranking?

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

It is common for God's chosen people to suffer. After being slaves in Egypt they were captured by the Babylonians then in 69 CE the Romans killed lots of Jews and destroyed their temple, etc. Then there is the Holocaust and maybe other things.

'Cept the Babylonian captivity actually happened.

So the other things didn't actually happen?

There is no record of captivity in Egypt.

 

[Thomas II]

It is common for God's chosen people to suffer. After being slaves in Egypt they were captured by the Babylonians then in 69 CE the Romans killed lots of Jews and destroyed their temple, etc. Then there is the Holocaust and maybe other things.

'Cept the Babylonian captivity actually happened.

So the other things didn't actually happen?

There is no record of captivity in Egypt.

Who was the Pharaoh in Egypt at the time ?

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

It is quite something that the Torah contains a lot of leaders names. Some of whom there are no record of existing... yet, the leader of Egypt... is just "Pharaoh".

The Rulers of Edom​

31 These were the kings who reigned in Edom before any Israelite king reigned:

32 Bela son of Beor became king of Edom. His city was named Dinhabah.
33 When Bela died, Jobab son of Zerah from Bozrah succeeded him as king.
34 When Jobab died, Husham from the land of the Temanites succeeded him as king.
35 When Husham died, Hadad son of Bedad, who defeated Midian in the country of Moab, succeeded him as king. His city was named Avith.
36 When Hadad died, Samlah from Masrekah succeeded him as king.
37 When Samlah died, Shaul from Rehoboth on the river succeeded him as king.
38 When Shaul died, Baal-Hanan son of Akbor succeeded him as king.
39 When Baal-Hanan son of Akbor died, Hadad[e] succeeded him as king. His city was named Pau, and his wife’s name was Mehetabel daughter of Matred, the daughter of Me-Zahab.
40 These were the chiefs descended from Esau, by name, according to their clans and regions:

Timna, Alvah, Jetheth, 41 Oholibamah, Elah, Pinon, 42 Kenaz, Teman, Mibzar, 43 Magdiel and Iram. These were the chiefs of Edom, according to their settlements in the land they occupied.
This is the family line of Esau, the father of the Edomites.

 

[Thomas II]

It is quite something that the Torah contains a lot of leaders names. Some of whom there are no record of existing... yet, the leader of Egypt... is just "Pharaoh".

The Rulers of Edom​

31 These were the kings who reigned in Edom before any Israelite king reigned:

32 Bela son of Beor became king of Edom. His city was named Dinhabah.
33 When Bela died, Jobab son of Zerah from Bozrah succeeded him as king.
34 When Jobab died, Husham from the land of the Temanites succeeded him as king.
35 When Husham died, Hadad son of Bedad, who defeated Midian in the country of Moab, succeeded him as king. His city was named Avith.
36 When Hadad died, Samlah from Masrekah succeeded him as king.
37 When Samlah died, Shaul from Rehoboth on the river succeeded him as king.
38 When Shaul died, Baal-Hanan son of Akbor succeeded him as king.
39 When Baal-Hanan son of Akbor died, Hadad[e] succeeded him as king. His city was named Pau, and his wife’s name was Mehetabel daughter of Matred, the daughter of Me-Zahab.
40 These were the chiefs descended from Esau, by name, according to their clans and regions:

Timna, Alvah, Jetheth, 41 Oholibamah, Elah, Pinon, 42 Kenaz, Teman, Mibzar, 43 Magdiel and Iram. These were the chiefs of Edom, according to their settlements in the land they occupied.
This is the family line of Esau, the father of the Edomites.

Could it be Amenhotep II?



And here...

https://biblearchaeology.org/resear...-ii-and-the-historicity-of-the-exodus-pharaoh

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

That is funny how they use archeology to try and justify something massive and unprecedented happening... that people just forgot to write down. It had to be during Amenhotep II's reign because he wasn't waging wars.

Israel sucks, Palestine sucks. They kept going down to Egypt because of this. However, as notedly unpointed out in the link, there is no evidence of massive scale enslavement of the Hebrews, nor any massive jail break... forget about the magic right before the jail break. It is like trying to find Bigfoot, by turning over rocks and then using the observation to make some excuse as to how that could be evidence that Bigfoot was near.

Akhenaten to me is a lot more interesting as that is the single god guy. And that adoption went over very poorly. It'd seem a tad more realistic that some loosely affiliated migrants hooked up with fleeing monotheistic priests. But admittedly, that isn't even worth considering to be a theory of a theory of a guess. But the entire issue with the tenth plague was the single god judging the Egyptian Gods. So, take that for the worthlessness it is valued at.

 

[Thomas II]

That is funny how they use archeology to try and justify something massive and unprecedented happening... that people just forgot to write down. It had to be during Amenhotep II's reign because he wasn't waging wars.

Israel sucks, Palestine sucks. They kept going down to Egypt because of this. However, as notedly unpointed out in the link, there is no evidence of massive scale enslavement of the Hebrews, nor any massive jail break... forget about the magic right before the jail break. It is like trying to find Bigfoot, by turning over rocks and then using the observation to make some excuse as to how that could be evidence that Bigfoot was near.

Akhenaten to me is a lot more interesting as that is the single god guy. And that adoption went over very poorly. It'd seem a tad more realistic that some loosely affiliated migrants hooked up with fleeing monotheistic priests. But admittedly, that isn't even worth considering to be a theory of a theory of a guess. But the entire issue with the tenth plague was the single god judging the Egyptian Gods. So, take that for the worthlessness it is valued at.

According to the Book of Exodus, there was a famine in the land of Canaan (later known as Israel). Because of this famine, the Hebrew patriarch Jacob traveled with his extended family of 70 to Egypt to both live in better conditions and be with his son Joseph. Joseph’s wisdom had impressed the Pharaoh of Egypt to the point that he was appointed Viceroy of Egypt, which was second in power only to the Pharaoh.
The next 430 years in Egypt saw the Israelites prosper and rapidly multiply...

https://discoveringegypt.com/ancient-egyptian-kings-queens/akhenaten/

 

[Thomas II]

Jimmy, you are not saying that Akhenaten is the Pharaoh of the Bible, of Moses, etc...(?) Cause I don't think that at all...I do think that he IS a very interesting figure...Husband of Nefertiti and father of Tutankhamen...

https://arce.org/resource/akhenaten-mysteries-religious-revolution/#:~:text=In%20just%20under%20two%20decades,some%20of%20Egypt's%20traditional%20gods.

 

[excreationist]

Interesting hypothesis. Define the level of suffering that is normal. How is it measured?

Normal cultures are persecuted in one or fewer periods throughout history. The Jews apparently suffered in Egypt, under the Babylonions, by Rome, in the Holocaust, maybe Persia?, etc.... and the Holocaust involved a huge number of Jewish deaths - six million. By "persecuted" I mean pretty severely like being killed, tortured or enslaved.

Where do Jews fall on the suffering scale?

Well I can't think of another culture that beats them in this category.

Does the suffering that the Jews inflicted on other groups of peoples decrease their ranking?

No. BTW they didn't properly follow God's commands - they didn't kill everything that breathes in the promised land, etc.

 

[Thomas II]

Akhenaten

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Interesting hypothesis. Define the level of suffering that is normal. How is it measured?

Normal cultures are persecuted in one or fewer periods throughout history. The Jews apparently suffered in Egypt, under the Babylonions, by Rome, in the Holocaust, maybe Persia?, etc.... and the Holocaust involved a huge number of Jewish deaths - six million. By "persecuted" I mean pretty severely like being killed, tortured or enslaved.

Where do Jews fall on the suffering scale?

Well I can't think of another culture that beats them in this category.

Well, you can start naming all the ones that they don't beat.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Jimmy, you are not saying that Akhenaten is the Pharaoh of the Bible, of Moses, etc...(?) Cause I don't think that at all...I do think that he IS a very interesting figure...Husband of Nefertiti and father of Tutankhamen...

https://arce.org/resource/akhenaten-mysteries-religious-revolution/#:~:text=In%20just%20under%20two%20decades,some%20of%20Egypt's%20traditional%20gods.

I'm saying it isn't real. However, Akhenaten provides an interesting avenue to monotheism being on the run in Egypt. Monotheism didn't fair well in Egypt.

 

[Thomas II]

Jimmy, you are not saying that Akhenaten is the Pharaoh of the Bible, of Moses, etc...(?) Cause I don't think that at all...I do think that he IS a very interesting figure...Husband of Nefertiti and father of Tutankhamen...

https://arce.org/resource/akhenaten-mysteries-religious-revolution/#:~:text=In%20just%20under%20two%20decades,some%20of%20Egypt's%20traditional%20gods.

I'm saying it isn't real. However, Akhenaten provides an interesting avenue to monotheism being on the run in Egypt. Monotheism didn't fair well in Egypt.

It isn't real?... What are you talking about? ...

https://www.thinkswap.com/au/hsc/an...iesthood-year-12-band-6-essay#&gid=null&pid=1

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_...mun priests owned two,Pharaoh, if not more so.
The Amun priests owned two-thirds of all the temple lands in Egypt and 90 percent of her ships plus many other resources.[6] Consequently, the Amun priests were as powerful as Pharaoh, if not more so...

https://www.worldhistory.org/amun/

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

I'm saying the Exodus wasn't real. Too lazy to look into it, I ponder the origin of monotheism in Egypt to begin with.

I look at the Akhenaten's wiki, and it reminds me of how stupid the entire Exodus thing is. Akhenaten was abandoned to history by his contemporaries for his own abandonment of traditions during his rule. Yet, we know quite a bit about him and his wife. But the Exodus... the evidence presented is hidden in shadows.

 

[Thomas II]

I'm saying the Exodus wasn't real.

Well, let's see what we find...

https://biblearchaeology.org/resear...kZW5jZSciLCInZXZpZGVuY2UnIiwiJ2V2aWRlbmNlIl0=

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

I'm saying the Exodus wasn't real.

https://biblearchaeology.org/resear...kZW5jZSciLCInZXZpZGVuY2UnIiwiJ2V2aWRlbmNlIl0=

If the site is called "Bible Archeology", I'm not going to be too endowed with a sense of professional integrity. When you say this for your defense... oh boy... you ain't got nothing.

Many critics who doubt the historicity of the Exodus share a problem: over-reliance on what archaeology can prove. Archaeology is, in fact, a limited and imperfect area of study in which the interpretation of findings, as archaeologists readily admit, is more of an art than a hard science.

Archaeologist Edwin Yamauchi points out the limits of this science when he explains:

(1) little of what was made or written in antiquity survives to this day;

(2) few of the ancient sites have been surveyed and a number have not even been found;

(3) probably fewer than 2 percent of the known sites have been meaningfully excavated;

(4) few of these have been more than scratched; and

(5) only a fraction of the fraction that have been excavated have been published and data made available to the scholarly world. (1972: chap. 4)

Considering not only the limits but also the positive side of archaeology, it is remarkable how many Biblical accounts have been illuminated and confirmed by the relatively small number of sites excavated and finds uncovered to date. Even though, regrettably, some professionals go out of their way to present a distorted picture of what archaeology does reveal, it does provide some of the strongest evidence for the reliability of the Bible as credible and accurate history.

How many different fallacies can one make in a section?

So:

• "over-reliance on what archaeology can prove"
  • Funny, because they later say: "remarkable how many Biblical accounts have been illuminated and confirmed by the relatively small number of sites excavated and finds uncovered to date" So which is it?
  • Of course, when you lead off on this, it means they are admitting there is no archeological evidence (none, nadda, zilch, not a speck) for the Exodus. When you say this right off the bat, it tells the reader you are grasping at straws immediately! It means it is such a problem to justifying the historical nature of the claim that it needs immediate addressing or excusing.
• "probably fewer than 2 percent of the known sites have been meaningfully excavated"
  • Another in the shadows or gaps argument
• "it is remarkable how many Biblical accounts have been illuminated and confirmed"
  • This sounds like a gambler saying "I have a system". Look, it showed those things were accurate (denoting of what things not included), therefore it is all accurate! *balloons*

 

[Thomas II]

I'm saying the Exodus wasn't real.

https://biblearchaeology.org/resear...kZW5jZSciLCInZXZpZGVuY2UnIiwiJ2V2aWRlbmNlIl0=

If the site is called "Bible Archeology", I'm not going to be too endowed with a sense of professional integrity.

Jimmy, I am not religious...so I don't have a bias...I'm just trying to find a source of information...
What is your source of information...?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sources_and_parallels_of_the_Exodus#:~:text=The scholarly consensus is that,core behind the Biblical narrative.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

I'm saying the Exodus wasn't real.

https://biblearchaeology.org/resear...kZW5jZSciLCInZXZpZGVuY2UnIiwiJ2V2aWRlbmNlIl0=

If the site is called "Bible Archeology", I'm not going to be too endowed with a sense of professional integrity.

Jimmy, I am not religious...so I don't have a bias...I'm just trying to find a source of information...
What is your source of information...?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sources_and_parallels_of_the_Exodus#:~:text=The scholarly consensus is that,core behind the Biblical narrative.

My source is the lack of any information whatsoever to support the claim. My source is the method of arguments used and the narrative they demonstrate. When the majority of the argument consists of excuses, it isn't an argument worth taking seriously.

My post wasn't meant to be flippant, but observant. I'm big on how things are said and why they are said. As I noted in my post, look at how they are justifying their opinions. Off the bat they admit there is no archeological evidence. Then they go on a tear trying to say why that isn't important. But it is. It is very important! We have just small records of what happened 3500+ years ago, but we have a record, a pretty damn good one! That isn't to say there are not gaps and disagreements, but that is usually over the why's or how's.

Then the webpage goes on to use the Bible to justify the Bible, which no... that doesn't work. There is a watermark in the time of Solomon, I believe, but that sets that date, not all the other dates or claims.

And finally, there is the accusatory bullshit issue. If someone could resurrect evidence for the Exodus, that'd be a massive find! The webpage says the establishment hates the Bible, when in fact, most of these archeologists have likely been Christians and Jewish and would have become unbelievably famous for discovering evidence of the Exodus. Especially in the 19th or 20th centuries! So, their claim that the establishment is the reason why these findings haven't happened or the BS findings that claimed something they probably weren't (like that guy who found the ark *insert blurry picture of blurry thing*) is just accusatory crap.

 

[Thomas II]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sourc...us is that,core behind the Biblical narrative